Should "new Northern" scrap 15x as a sweetener?

[coradiafan2000]

In my opinion, Northern scrapping any trains seems unwise, with the state they are in, surely they need as many trains as they can get?

I should imagine the 150s will be up for scrap within the next five or so years anyway. That or TfW take a few on if, God forbid, they're stuck with the pacers for a bit longer. Scrapping the 156s and especially the 158s seems ludicrous in my view. I know they're getting on a bit, but they're perfectly competent at what they do right now (as far as I can tell anyway).

 

[Neptune]

With regards to 15x retention or replacement in the short term certainly not. Get Northern stabilised first then consider replacements. I would like to think that nobody believes they would get rid of them with no replacements as some seem to be intimating here.

The problem with the 150’s is that they are noisy and draughty and the interior refurb is lazy. It’s a 1980’s train attempting to keep the good old days alive with their original seats which make you feel like a chad when looking out of the window. The Chapman seats are better but still cramped. Keeping the same old seats with the same awful seat pitch is not a refurb. It is a refresh. The PRM mods are a necessity and gets rid of the awful cramped bogs or unreliable disabled ex-FNW efforts of yore thank goodness. They are put out on unsuitable long distance services far too often. I actually like working them but they are not what the 21st century traveller expects anymore. The ideal replacement for these is the 195’s IMO. Commuter services and nothing more.

The 153, 155 & 156 fleets should be replaced after the 150’s. Assuming the 153’s will be gone in the short term (this was the plan once the 195’s and extra 150’s arrived but seems to have gone quiet now). Ideally the 27 x 175’s would come from Wales once they are replaced to enable 155 withdrawal and also some of the 156’s. This would allow a cascade of 158’s to replace the withdrawn 155/156’s and the 175’s could operate on express services and any rural routes which require the high top speed of the 175 for part of the journey (some of the non electrified north west express services they used to operate on would be a good start).

Long term all will need to be replaced, ideally before this decade is out but I fear that it will be more souped up commuter trains rather than trains which fit the requirement of long distance services. They will probably need to be bi-mode or hydrogen or whatever else they decide in the next few years.

 

[hexagon789]

With regards to 15x retention or replacement in the short term certainly not. Get Northern stabilised first then consider replacements.

The problem with the 150’s is that they are noisy and draughty and the interior refurb is lazy. It’s a 1980’s train attempting to keep the good old days alive with their original seats which make you feel like a chad when looking out of the window. The Chapman seats are better but still cramped. Keeping the same old seats with the same awful seat pitch is not a refurb. It is a refresh. The PRM mods are a necessity and gets rid of the awful cramped bogs or unreliable disabled ex-FNW efforts of yore thank goodness. They are put out on unsuitable long distance services far too often. I actually like working them but they are not what the 21st century traveller expects anymore. The ideal replacement for these is the 195’s IMO. Commuter services and nothing more.

The 153, 155 & 156 fleets should be replaced after the 150’s. Assuming the 153’s will be gone in the short term (this was the plan once the 195’s and extra 150’s arrived but seems to have gone quiet now). Ideally the 27 x 175’s would come from Wales once they are replaced to enable 155 withdrawal and also some of the 156’s. This would allow a cascade of 158’s to replace the withdrawn 155/156’s and the 175’s could operate on express services and any rural routes which require the high top speed of the 175 for part of the journey (some of the non electrified north west express services they used to operate on would be a good start).

Long term all will need to be replaced, ideally before this decade is out but I fear that it will be more souped up commuter trains rather than trains which fit the requirement of long distance services. They will probably need to be bi-mode or hydrogen or whatever else they decide in the next few years.

I agree about 175s, I'd use them and 158s to run regional-express or more longer-distance workings with new trains to replace the Sprinter/Super Sprinter types.

 

[coradiafan2000]

I agree about 175s, I'd use them and 158s to run regional-express or more longer-distance workings with new trains to replace the Sprinter/Super Sprinter types.

So basically they'd be doing what they were more or less built for? They've come full circle, how appropriate.

 

[hexagon789]

So basically they'd be doing what they were more or less built for? They've come full circle, how appropriate.

Quite, but it is what they would both be best suited for

 

[coradiafan2000]

Quite, but it is what they would both be best suited for

Oh definitely. I can't really think of anywhere else the 175s would be suited after they leave TfW. EMR could make use of them on their longer Norwich- Liverpool services, but they seem to be getting 170s for that. Northern would be the best place for them.

 

[hexagon789]

Oh definitely. I can't really think of anywhere else the 175s would be suited after they leave TfW. EMR could make use of them on their longer Norwich- Liverpool services, but they seem to be getting 170s for that. Northern would be the best place for them.

Definitely Northern, tbh I'm not sure 170s are best suited to Northern with their acceleration characteristics but that's by-the-by.

 

[Neptune]

The 175’s would be perfect for Leeds - Nottingham or York - Blackpool. Plenty of seats, plenty of luggage space and plenty of places to stretch their legs. Oh yes, and a toilet in each coach too. Another bug bear of the 195’s and 331’s is that there is only 1 toilet whether they be 2, 3 or 4 car.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Definitely Northern, tbh I'm not sure 170s are best suited to Northern with their acceleration characteristics but that's by-the-by.

At least they're not working branch line stopping services to Ebbw Vale and Maesteg. Imagine how much of a waste that would be...

 

[hexagon789]

At least they're not working branch line stopping services to Ebbw Vale and Maesteg. Imagine how much of a waste that would be...

Well, didn't Northern use them on Harrogate stoppers where linespeeds were insufficiently high for them to get into "second gear" so to speak, increasing fuel consumption?

 

[coradiafan2000]

Well, didn't Northern use them on Harrogate stoppers where linespeeds were insufficiently high for them to get into "second gear" so to speak, increasing fuel consumption?

I believe they did. Are they still doing them? They were last time I went up North in September.

 

[hexagon789]

I believe they did. Are they still doing them? They were last time I went up North in September.

No idea I'm afraid, but certainly Northern could do with reshuffling their fleet in the future to better match certain classes performance with the services they operate.

 

[Snow1964]

A double 150/2 is basically the same thing (but diesel) as a 319. I don't see why people seem to have them in such different brackets in terms of "tiredness" that a refurb can't fix.

Its a bit older, and arguably noiser, and slower to accelerate
Even the most comprehensive refurb wont fix that

But I agree with others, plenty of lines where a 2car 1980s diesel train is not a modern solution, or big enough in 2020s

Need to concentrate in getting sufficient trains so these nowadays only appear as 4 or 6 car peak hour extras, not for off peak use

 

[Kite159]

At least they're not working branch line stopping services to Ebbw Vale and Maesteg. Imagine how much of a waste that would be...

At least those services have a chance to get upto speed on the main-line

 

[Neptune]

Well, didn't Northern use them on Harrogate stoppers where linespeeds were insufficiently high for them to get into "second gear" so to speak, increasing fuel consumption?

170’s are still core traction on the Harrogate line.

 

[yorksrob]

Following the Pacer withdrawals, there are now plenty of 2-car 156s and 158s operating on routes where a 2-car 195 would provide adequate seating capacity. Examples: Cumbrian Coast, Carlisle to Newcastle, Settle & Carlisle.

If the 195/0s were swapped on to these routes, the 15x could be redeployed in 3- and 4-car formations, with inter-unit gangways, instead of using paired-up 195/0s on routes that need the extra capacity.

If there are too many 150/1s to operate them all on 2-car diagrams, some could be reformed into 3-car units, as per the Arriva franchise agreement, with some of the 150/2s split up to provide the centre cars.

IMO the aim should be to minimise the operation of the DMUs lacking end gangways (150/1s and 195s) in multiple formations.

I'm of the opinion that 3 carriages should be the minimum on the S&C throughout the day.

 

[Glenn1969]

I would have thought 4 cars minimum on most lines if they are serious about tackling their many crowding issues

 

[yorksrob]

Given Northern's capacity issues (and I do agree with wiring the CLC and using Class 323s on it due to their acceleration) I would suggest it is going to need a lot of electrification to achieve that. An end to 2-car working other than on the most rural lines should be a first priority before anything more is scrapped.

A double 150/2 is basically the same thing (but diesel) as a 319. I don't see why people seem to have them in such different brackets in terms of "tiredness" that a refurb can't fix.

Most 150's have a far worse, more cramped interior than the 319's, full of 3+2 airline seating. They need gutting and full refurb if they are to stay IMO.

 

[hexagon789]

170’s are still core traction on the Harrogate line.

Cheers.

Most 150's have a far worse, more cramped interior than the 319's, full of 3+2 airline seating. They need gutting and full refurb if they are to stay IMO.

If they are staying a change to 2+2 seating would be in order I think

 

[Bletchleyite]

I beg to differ. Many cases these days are huge and for safety reasons should not be put on overhead racks. Whilst some may fit, lifting a heavy weight above the seats either onto or off the rack is extremely dangerous.

Most cases I see on train seats or on the floor are airline hand-luggage size and their owners are too lazy to put them up. If they can be put in the overheads on a plane, they can be put in the overheads on a train too.

Leeds - Nottingham is well used by Uni students (Leeds, Sheffield & Nottingham are all major student centres) with their associated large amounts of luggage they need each term.

The luggage demand on about 6 days a year isn't a sensible basis on which to design a train, either. That's where TOCs need to plan to use their fleet based on things they know about, or can find out about, in advance. It's just like them being taken by surprise when a footy match causes a high level of demand when the date of said match has been known for years. Chiltern, say, are quite good at this sort of thing, Northern are awful at it.

Remember, these trains are essentially commuter trains fitted with tables to make them look like an express train.

They are hybrids, which is what Northern need. I'd put a 700-style luggage rack in half the standbacks, but as things stand (!) they are better than most 15x at dealing with what many Northern services are, which is long distance regional expresses.

Should you use a 2-car to substitute for a 2-car 15x? No, clearly not, and Northern said (lied?) that they weren't going to do this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they are staying a change to 2+2 seating would be in order I think

Yes, I'd be inclined to retain 150s and reseat to 2+2 on a layout like the 319/2s or GWR 150s - because they are very wide units you can put 2+2 with armrests and still have a lot of circulation space. If they're to be used on commuter services, I might even suggest considering a layout like SWR's 455s with fewer seats and large standbacks at the doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least they're not working branch line stopping services to Ebbw Vale and Maesteg. Imagine how much of a waste that would be...

Logic would to me be to rejig as follows:-
- 195s off "Northern Connect" and onto urban stopping services like the CLC, Harrogate line etc. The acceleration is hugely valuable and would either improve reliability or could be used to improve timetables.
- 3-car 170s onto 100mph "Northern Connect" services i.e. Barrow/Windermere
- 158s, reformed into 3-car sets, onto "Northern Connect" services where 90mph can be pathed/that aren't via Castlefield, and any remaining ones on rural services like the S&C
- 156s on secondary rural services. Single 156s would work well on the Colne/Blackpool S/Ormskirk circuit, and they are suitable for the Cumbrian Coast, possibly also Clitheroe, Buxton...
- 150s changed to a 2+2 standee commuter layout, formed into permanent 4-car sets with a 150/2 in the middle and 150/1 end coaches (so fully gangwayed for better revenue protection) and used on commuter services not served by 195s.
- 153/155, not sure, they are the worst of the 15x anyway. Maybe they could go, but they'd be the only 15x I'd consider binning.

 

[Neptune]

The luggage demand on about 6 days a year isn't a sensible basis on which to design a train, either. That's where TOCs need to plan to use their fleet based on things they know about, or can find out about, in advance. It's just like them being taken by surprise when a footy match causes a high level of demand when the date of said match has been known for years. Chiltern, say, are quite good at this sort of thing, Northern are awful at it.

I work Nottingham services very regularly and can tell you that it is more than 6 days a year when ample luggage space is needed. There are a lot of people who travel between Nottingham and Chesterfield to connect onto Cross Country services. People travelling to Nottingham to connect with the Skegness service. Lots of people travelling to the main destinations for breaks. These are groups that need a proper luggage area as their cases are too large and/or heavy to go on the overhead racks.

They are hybrids, which is what Northern need. I'd put a 700-style luggage rack in half the standbacks, but as things stand (!) they are better than most 15x at dealing with what many Northern services are, which is long distance regional expresses.

Should you use a 2-car to substitute for a 2-car 15x? No, clearly not, and Northern said (lied?) that they weren't going to do this.

I work many different varieties of services with these units. The 4 car 331’s are ideal off peak on the Skipton & Donny services but get very crowded at peak times due to the massive reduction in seats compared to the 333’s. Better than a 321 though at peak times.

The 195 3 cars are ok on the Calder Valley although suffer the same luggage problems. They are inadequate on Blackpool - York services once again due to lack of luggage space which is going to be a nightmare in the summer.

100% I agree with you that 195 2 cars are just inadequate for nearly everything. They’d be ok on off peak Knottingley services and that’s about it. They only pair them up occasionally on the Calder Valley but I’ve seen solo 2 car units at peak times.

They should not have gone for hybrid style interiors. They wanted new trains on the ‘elite’ Connect services as well as for some commuter services instead of putting them all on the unfashionable commuter services that they are more suited to. The rapid acceleration on both classes would be much more suited to stopping services.

The class 700 style luggage rack would make a big difference and mean that the hybrid style layout might just work.

I still believe that the 158’s would be much better on all connect services as very few if any need more than a 90mph top speed. If they do need 100mph for anything then there are the 170’s.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, I'd be inclined to retain 150s and reseat to 2+2 on a layout like the 319/2s or GWR 150s - because they are very wide units you can put 2+2 with armrests and still have a lot of circulation space. If they're to be used on commuter services, I might even suggest considering a layout like SWR's 455s with fewer seats and large standbacks at the doors.

If you have to retain them. Otherwise they should be replaced really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you have to retain them. Otherwise they should be replaced really.

Again, unless you're going to fund replacement and a capacity increase, which is very unlikely to be forthcoming, I'd say they need to stay.

 

[hexagon789]

Again, unless you're going to fund replacement and a capacity increase, which is very unlikely to be forthcoming, I'd say they need to stay.

I thought the whole point was a suggestion that they would be replaced?

 

[yorksrob]

If they are staying a change to 2+2 seating would be in order I think

Yes, and at the same time, they could make the interiors more suitable for longer distance journeys, like Wessex trains (or whoever they were down there) did.

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm of the opinion that 3 carriages should be the minimum on the S&C throughout the day.

That depends on the service and the time of year. I travelled on the 1318 from Leeds to Carlisle on 28 January. It was a 2-car 158 and less than half the seats were taken at any time - probably less than a quarter after Settle. A third carriage of fresh air would have been burning more diesel just to add to global warming.

 

[yorksrob]

That depends on the service and the time of year. I travelled on the 1318 from Leeds to Carlisle on 28 January. It was a 2-car 158 and less than half the seats were taken at any time - probably less than a quarter after Settle. A third carriage of fresh air would have been burning more diesel just to add to global warming.

I travelled on a 2 carriage service last Friday, and it was fairly cosy all the way. There were a few seats available but no double seats so well over half full all the way. There were a good number of people got on at Shipley, Keighley Skipton and Settle.

 

[Neptune]

The S&C is very dependent on time of year for loadings. The summer sees a large rise in numbers whereas the winter months can be very quiet at certain times. There’s also the issue of coach party reservations. Normally there are between 40 and 50 reservations for them and when it’s a 2 car that’s a third of the train booked up for 2 thirds of the journey. In the summer this can lead to standing passengers. 3 cars would be the ideal balance all year round. 4 cars is overkill except those arriving into and departing Leeds at peak times.