Should OAPs and Disabled get free train travel?

[AM9]

In which case I look forward to my free travel card, so I can get to Heathrow at no cost to catch my First Class flight to Singapore.

That's fine by me as long as you don't expect free first class air travel funded by the UK. Nobody has the right to question why an individual ENCTS holder wishes to make a specific journey. The eligibility is universal once you qualify.
In reality, those who can afford to use other methods (like me) tend to be selective in its use, usually judging convenience against comfort. If I was on foot anywhere in England, and I wanted to get somewhere nearby to which there was a suitable bus service I would us my pass. Part of the convenience is not having to carry change for aticket. I doubt that I would make a 20+ mile trip between two places where there is also a good rail service though. If my return time on a journey from home was uncertain, I would probably drive, - even to the local station, - some 2 miles away. Having said that, I have taken my Brompton bike on the 724 Green Line bus to Ware and ridden most of the way back. Very handy.
That's why giving passes to better off people is not really that expensive.
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You don't talk for me whatsoever.

Well yes I was wrong, there's more than one who doesn't agree, but gratefully they are just a minority.

 

[Robertj21a]

.

What is needed is a consistent policy across the country: why should London and Merseyside be among the few areas which allow free train as well as bus travel?

Presumably because the local councils fund it ?

 

[dggar]

Yes, I am sure, I have checked the details today on the relevant websites
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Yes, I am sure. I have checked the details today on the relevant website. The age is 60 in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Merseyside, Greater Manchester and London (and probably other places too).
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The Northern Ireland 'bus pass' by the way, includes free bus and rail travel throughout Northern Ireland AND the Republic of Ireland. So a generous befaction indeed.

Can you post the specific reference for Manchester, I live in Manchester and every publication I have seen states the age is in line with State pension age.

 

[Steveman]

Cracking idea that a person who may earn considerably less than a wealthy disabled person should pay for the rich individual to ride around for free.

 

[HH]

Cracking idea that a person who may earn considerably less than a wealthy disabled person should pay for the rich individual to ride around for free.

The point on all these is that you really have to give it to everyone or no-one as the cost of administering a partial handout is too expensive. Besides, IMO no disabled person is going to catch a bus if there is a better alternative, so I can't see rich, disabled people using the bus much.

I've looked at a number of bus companies who only run some routes due to the subsidy for OAPs. Many were cut when the subsidy went down. Poor people are already getting help if buses are kept running. I think more could be done as well, but rich people don't tend to use buses...

 

[Steveman]

The point on all these is that you really have to give it to everyone or no-one as the cost of administering a partial handout is too expensive. Besides, IMO no disabled person is going to catch a bus if there is a better alternative, so I can't see rich, disabled people using the bus much.

I've looked at a number of bus companies who only run some routes due to the subsidy for OAPs. Many were cut when the subsidy went down. Poor people are already getting help if buses are kept running. I think more could be done as well, but rich people don't tend to use buses...

I was thinking of rail travel and imagine with fares being astronomical even the wealthy would find free travel the length of the country quite appealing.

 

[HH]

I was thinking of rail travel and imagine with fares being astronomical even the wealthy would find free travel the length of the country quite appealing.

Which is why they don't give out free rail travel much, except cities where every little helps to cut down congestion.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You don't talk for me whatsoever..

No, but it definitely applies as a whole to the little clique you have going on. I notice you always tend to gang up on people in threads.
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Reading that makes no sense.

Only if you completely misinterpret what is meant by "poorer people do not fund it", which is quite obvious given the second sentence.

 

[lobby ludd]

I would say that yes, disabled people should get free travel. However, I do not see any proposed plans for the government to introduce this (or any proposal from the opposition) sadly.

We tend to think of disabled as physically disabled, but the category includes mental conditions too. Recently on an arduous 11 mile ramblers' hike, I asked one participant how he had got there, he replied he had used his 'disabled' bus pass ! He seemed (I'm guessing) to be mildly autistic or similar. The only other person I know with a 'disabled' bus pass - again qualifying with a 'mental' condition - is a regular gym user and car driver.

 

[TheKnightWho]

We tend to think of disabled as physically disabled, but the category includes mental conditions too. Recently on an arduous 11 mile ramblers' hike, I asked one participant how he had got there, he replied he had used his 'disabled' bus pass ! He seemed (I'm guessing) to be mildly autistic or similar. The only other person I know with a 'disabled' bus pass - again qualifying with a 'mental' condition - is a regular gym user and car driver.

Why put mental in scare quotes? They aren't fake.

You might have a point over whether or not they should have free travel passes (which I would disagree with, given many mental illnesses reduce mobility in indirect or non-obvious ways), but let's not start suggesting they're just making it up. There's enough stigma against mental health issues as it is.

 

[Llanigraham]

We tend to think of disabled as physically disabled, but the category includes mental conditions too. Recently on an arduous 11 mile ramblers' hike, I asked one participant how he had got there, he replied he had used his 'disabled' bus pass ! He seemed (I'm guessing) to be mildly autistic or similar. The only other person I know with a 'disabled' bus pass - again qualifying with a 'mental' condition - is a regular gym user and car driver.

And?
I correctly hold a Disabled Adults Rail card because I have to wear a hearing aid, but I also drive and go to the local gym.
Are you suggesting that I am not disabled in some way? :roll:

 

[zn1]

On rail travel the disabled rail card needs to be expanded to cater for mental health disability,

I live on own, with my dog, i dont have a bus pass, i dont want one, dont need it yet..

I claim ESA, as i have mental health disabilty, yes i can still drive and i pay for everything with the car.., etc but am unable to work to due my bipolar condition.

Id dearly love to use rail travel again - but i simply cannot afford it.

so getting a railcard to allow a discount would be a superb benefit to me and other disabled people who dont currently qualify..
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just to make a point to you i suffer from Bipolar disorder, havent been able to work for a few years now, in my last 5 years working i was off for around half of it due to the disorder..now i get ESA and i have had to fight for it i get less that 800 quid a month to live on - that includes my housing benefit, after all my expenses i get around 2.50 to spend on a luxury..i claim only what i need to, not what im entitled to..i also have a blue badge..but thats only used when i need to, if a free space is available i take it..

some discounted travel would be a godsend, petrol is expensive, as is a car, but i dont drink or smoke, or go out very often...

 

[urbophile]

Is anybody suggesting that any groups should be given free rail travel nationwide? What seems sensible is that it should be restricted to local journeys. The bus pass can be valid nationwide (though not across national boundaries like England-Wales) because apart from long-distance coach services, which are not included, most bus routes are local and no-one (except people looking to figure in the Guinness Book of Records) would use them for long journeys. The distinction between local and express train services is less clear-cut, but the compromise would be - as with London and Merseyside - to allow use of trains within the pass-holder's local area.

 

[gray1404]

I think that disabled people should be given free rail travel nationwide, yes, just like in Ireland.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think that disabled people should be given free rail travel nationwide, yes, just like in Ireland.

How would it be funded ?

 

[lobby ludd]

That's how the bus pass began, but as with it, there would inevitably be pressure from people living just outside an 'area' boundary for cross-boundary travel. In West and South Yorkshire concessionary fares have had to be cut back - to free up capacity for fare-paying passengers.
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Who would count as disabled ? If people on ESA, that's 2.5 million people !

 

[urbophile]

There are anomalies of course. A glaring one is the fact that Merseyside pass holders can use Merseyrail services outside the county, for example to Ormskirk and Chester, yet people living in, respectively, Lancashire and Cheshire have to pay. But that's local politics for you.

 

[lobby ludd]

I didn't know that, but it underscores the point that as a Nation we are becoming balkanized. As if Scottish, Welsh and Irish, separatism wasn't enough, the powers that be, seem hellbent on dividing us even further, with a plethora of different concessions for each area. A way for local politicians to buy votes.

 

[najaB]

I didn't know that, but it underscores the point that as a Nation we are becoming balkanized.

Services provided by local authorities have always varied - that's the whole point of local government. If you want everything to be uniform and homogenised then abolish councils and run everything from Westminster.

 

[gray1404]

How would it be funded ?

A similar approach to how it is funded in Ireland.
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Who would count as disabled ? If people on ESA, that's 2.5 million people !

I think the current criteria under the Transport Act that is used to decide if someone is entitled to a ECTS disabled pass for bus travel is restrictive enough. Or perhaps only those who would qualify for a disabled persons railcard currently.

 

[Clip]

A similar approach to how it is funded in Ireland.
.

Use Irish taxpayers money?

 

[TheKnightWho]

I didn't know that, but it underscores the point that as a Nation we are becoming balkanized. As if Scottish, Welsh and Irish, separatism wasn't enough, the powers that be, seem hellbent on dividing us even further, with a plethora of different concessions for each area. A way for local politicians to buy votes.

I didn't realise West Yorkshire was keen on declaring war on Lancashire anytime soon. Do you have any info on that?

 

[Robertj21a]

A similar approach to how it is funded in Ireland.
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Which is ?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I didn't realise West Yorkshire was keen on declaring war on Lancashire anytime soon. Do you have any info on that?

Most inhabitants of Yorkshire are either doing peace missions in other counties (read as they've moved there) or guarding the border (usually on the Lancashire boundary). If declaring a war on Lancashire was on the agenda, then surely by now West Yorkshire in general would have been ransacking Burnley, Preston and Lancaster for the good stuff.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Most inhabitants of Yorkshire are either doing peace missions in other counties (read as they've moved there) or guarding the border (usually on the Lancashire boundary). If declaring a war on Lancashire was on the agenda, then surely by now West Yorkshire in general would have been ransacking Burnley, Preston and Lancaster for the good stuff.

Here is a poser to solve:-

A)...What is the shortest mileage from any part of Yorkshire to a coastline of Lancashire?

B)...What is the shortage mileage from any part of Lancashire to a coastline of Yorkshire?

 

[Tetchytyke]

A similar approach to how it is funded in Ireland.

In Ireland you have to pay EUR50 to see your GP and you're taxed for having a debit card.

Are you sure you want a train scheme funded like that? I bloody don't.

By your logic, and assuming your experience is representative (did you have full sight of the ticket machine for the whole journey?) then the service would be unremunerative without the payout from whichever council(s) for the pass use, so would cease to exist assuming they are operated commercially.

As I've said before, the "payout" from the council is not paid per passenger, it is paid based on how many passengers would hypothetically have chosen to travel had they had to pay for it.

And this is a big problem for the bus operators in tourist areas. They have to pay for big buses to fit everybody on, but they only get reimbursement for a much smaller number of people. Yorkshire Coastliner were seriously considering registering their buses as express coaches- meaning ENCTS passes would not be valid on them- a year or two ago precisely because they weren't being given enough money to pay the cost of carrying all the tourists.

Bus operators can't alter the reimbursement rate, which means if their running costs go up- say, for instance, they need to replace single deckers with double deckers- then the only way to get that money is by increasing fares. And the fewer people who pay fares, the more the fares have to go up by.

Of course, it is just possible that some of those twirlies were 'having a day out' in the sense of going to a hospital/doctor/dentist appointment. or hospital visiting

Aye, they sat on the X10 from Newcastle and then sat on the X93 to Whitby for a dentist's appointment, on a summer Saturday

(The bus is the quickest way from Newcastle to Whitby on public transport).

 

[AlterEgo]

In Ireland you have to pay EUR50 to see your GP and you're taxed for having a debit card.

Are you sure you want a train scheme funded like that? I bloody don't.

The 50 EUR charge goes straight to the GP because unless you have a medical card (infant, elderly, poor) you're a private patient. It's nothing to do with funding concessionary travel.

 

[JamesT]

On rail travel the disabled rail card needs to be expanded to cater for mental health disability,

I live on own, with my dog, i dont have a bus pass, i dont want one, dont need it yet..

I claim ESA, as i have mental health disabilty, yes i can still drive and i pay for everything with the car.., etc but am unable to work to due my bipolar condition.

Id dearly love to use rail travel again - but i simply cannot afford it.

so getting a railcard to allow a discount would be a superb benefit to me and other disabled people who dont currently qualify..

You can get one. My other half has mental health problems and gets a disabled railcard. http://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/ has a list of the conditions.
Basically, in addition to ESA, you'll need to claim for PIP.

 

[HH]

As I've said before, the "payout" from the council is not paid per passenger, it is paid based on how many passengers would hypothetically have chosen to travel had they had to pay for it.

And this is a big problem for the bus operators in tourist areas. They have to pay for big buses to fit everybody on, but they only get reimbursement for a much smaller number of people. Yorkshire Coastliner were seriously considering registering their buses as express coaches- meaning ENCTS passes would not be valid on them- a year or two ago precisely because they weren't being given enough money to pay the cost of carrying all the tourists.

Indeed, but they had a choice and decided not to. Tourists are definitely an issue, but that still doesn't alter the fact that many routes wouldn't exist without the subsidy.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 50 EUR charge goes straight to the GP because unless you have a medical card (infant, elderly, poor) you're a private patient. It's nothing to do with funding concessionary travel.

Well it is, because the Dail have made a decision to pay for free concessionary train travel but not to pay for medical care.

Just be careful what one wishes for. If we charged everyone £50 to see their GP there'd be loads of money left over for free bus travel.