Should Seat Reservations Be Abolished?

[edwin_m]

All the problems on this thread could be solved by a few simple measures, keeping the reservation system fundamentally as it is:

• Trains with electronic reservation systems should have a traffic light system.
• Processes should be in place to ensure that nobody can hold more than one reservation for the same ticket (on the same part of the journey)
• Means to change reservations in real time (with the appropriate flexible ticket) are OK as long as the train has a traffic light system, seats that may be reserved on journey are shown amber and under no circumstances will a seat shown as free become reserved.
• It should be made clear to everybody that the person holding a reservation must claim it within say 15min after the station where the reservation started, otherwise they lose the right to the seat. Perhaps even a sensor system to wipe the electronic reservation if the seat is empty at this time.

I have to say, as a business traveller, the virtual certainty of being able to work on a laptop is a major reason to choose the train over other means of transport so the railway would lose much of my custom if some of the suggestions on this thread were enacted. If travel time becomes unproductive it's difficult to justify, say, paying a bit more for an evening train plus hotel instead of an early flight the next day. I always reserve a seat when I can, and on most trains it needs to be a table seat to be able to open the laptop far enough to see the screen. If I know the train will be busy or it is short-formed I will sit in the designated seat but otherwise I may sit elsewhere to get more room or away from noisy neighbours. If it does get busy I certainly don't try to occupy extra seats.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I don’t really understand the difference between a green light, and a seat without a reservation label. Surely it’s easier just to see no reservation label, or an electronic “seat available”, than have loads of confused colour-blind people? And we all know, if someone sits in a seat, everyone will claim to be colour-blind. I’ve never met anyone who claims they can’t read.

 

[trainophile]

I don’t really understand the difference between a green light, and a seat without a reservation label. Surely it’s easier just to see no reservation label, or an electronic “seat available”, than have loads of confused colour-blind people? And we all know, if someone sits in a seat, everyone will claim to be colour-blind. I’ve never met anyone who claims they can’t read.

But maybe not English!

 

[trainophile]

All the problems on this thread could be solved by a few simple measures, keeping the reservation system fundamentally as it is:

• Trains with electronic reservation systems should have a traffic light system.
• Processes should be in place to ensure that nobody can hold more than one reservation for the same ticket (on the same part of the journey)
• Means to change reservations in real time (with the appropriate flexible ticket) are OK as long as the train has a traffic light system, seats that may be reserved on journey are shown amber and under no circumstances will a seat shown as free become reserved.
• It should be made clear to everybody that the person holding a reservation must claim it within say 15min after the station where the reservation started, otherwise they lose the right to the seat. Perhaps even a sensor system to wipe the electronic reservation if the seat is empty at this time.

I have to say, as a business traveller, the virtual certainty of being able to work on a laptop is a major reason to choose the train over other means of transport so the railway would lose much of my custom if some of the suggestions on this thread were enacted. If travel time becomes unproductive it's difficult to justify, say, paying a bit more for an evening train plus hotel instead of an early flight the next day. I always reserve a seat when I can, and on most trains it needs to be a table seat to be able to open the laptop far enough to see the screen. If I know the train will be busy or it is short-formed I will sit in the designated seat but otherwise I may sit elsewhere to get more room or away from noisy neighbours. If it does get busy I certainly don't try to occupy extra seats.

My only argument with the 15 minute suggestion is that on some types of ticket starting short is permitted, and someone's plans may change so that they decide to do that.

 

[edwin_m]

I don’t really understand the difference between a green light, and a seat without a reservation label. Surely it’s easier just to see no reservation label, or an electronic “seat available”, than have loads of confused colour-blind people? And we all know, if someone sits in a seat, everyone will claim to be colour-blind. I’ve never met anyone who claims they can’t read.

The coloured lights would be used on trains with electronic reservation systems so those trains wouldn't have reservation tickets as well. Like the presence or absence of a seat ticket, the light gives a quick indication of which seats are available. If the lights are the same lens lighting up in different colours (rather than separate lights with their own labels or illuminating symbols) then colour blind people may not be able to distinguish them, but as far as I know each seat will also have an alphanumeric display showing From and To stations.

My only argument with the 15 minute suggestion is that on some types of ticket starting short is permitted, and someone's plans may change so that they decide to do that.

That's true, but if they plan in advance to start short they could get their reservations adjusted accordingly at a ticket office. If it is decided at the last minute they could use an online amendment system where available. In the fairly instances that they do neither of these things, I suggest they just have to take the risk that the seat will be taken.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How does the leasing cost for trains they are already leasing affect the decision whether to use them? Or do you mean the maintenance cost in the contract with Siemens?

I believe with the /2s the leasing cost has a significant mileage component.

 

[takno]

I don’t really understand the difference between a green light, and a seat without a reservation label. Surely it’s easier just to see no reservation label, or an electronic “seat available”, than have loads of confused colour-blind people? And we all know, if someone sits in a seat, everyone will claim to be colour-blind. I’ve never met anyone who claims they can’t read.

I've seen plenty of people who have no idea whether their journey between say Warrington and Preston clashes with a journey from Wigan to Carlisle.

 

[6Gman]

Again with Crosscountry, whose fleet are a mixture of four and five car Voyagers (which in my opinion should all be reformed into fixed seven or eight car units) that shouldn’t even have reservations since they are too small for the job.

You do realise that would result in an overall reduction in the total seating capacity?

 

[HowardGWR]

^^^ I would not even consider travelling XC for more than an hour's journey, unless I reserved, or unless I happened to know that that service was normally lightly loaded for my journey. I once saw people standing from Exeter to Bristol in my coach and they were greatly fatigued by the end, as well as it being uncomfortable for the rest of us who were seated to be in their presence. That's a relatively short journey too. The voyagers are so cramped.

 

[westv]

Should seat reservations be abolished? Yes on any service that runs with anything less than eight coaches, so GWR, GC, HT, TPE and XC which are usually formed of either three, four or five coaches.

Hull Trains? Eh? That bit makes no sense.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I've seen plenty of people who have no idea whether their journey between say Warrington and Preston clashes with a journey from Wigan to Carlisle.

I don’t see how coloured lights help in that situation? They say either “free seat” green. “Reserved seat” red. Or “reserved somewhere later” amber. Same as the display!

 

[Taunton]

I have to say, as a business traveller, the virtual certainty of being able to work on a laptop is a major reason to choose the train over other means of transport

Me too. Unfortunately, as the seats are squeezed up ever closer in each generation of stock, along with the general demise of facing seating bays with tables, I now find it often difficult to even get my laptop open enough to read the screen.

Regarding the more general reservation approach, it becomes ever more inappropriate with high frequency services. Trains from Euston to both Birmingham and Manchester are now every 20 minutes, essentially a turn-up-and-go service, but what a nuisance when you have gone to a business meeting in London, maybe some distance from Euston, to have to predict exactly which one will be right. Can't take the 1800 or the 1840 home, it has to be the 1820. If an unrestricted ticket was 50% more, OK, but often they are many times more, which is just inappropriate. Main line services like this are now at the frequency you find on the Underground Metropolitan Line, or out to Epping on the Central Line, but nobody suggests that you need reservations for those.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Me too. Unfortunately, as the seats are squeezed up ever closer in each generation of stock, along with the general demise of facing seating bays with tables, I now find it often difficult to even get my laptop open enough to read the screen.

Regarding the more general reservation approach, it becomes ever more inappropriate with high frequency services. Trains from Euston to both Birmingham and Manchester are now every 20 minutes, essentially a turn-up-and-go service, but what a nuisance when you have gone to a business meeting in London, maybe some distance from Euston, to have to predict exactly which one will be right. Can't take the 1800 or the 1840 home, it has to be the 1820. If an unrestricted ticket was 50% more, OK, but often they are many times more, which is just inappropriate. Main line services like this are now at the frequency you find on the Underground Metropolitan Line, or out to Epping on the Central Line, but nobody suggests that you need reservations for those.

That's more of a question of whether there should be Advances or simply a more granular system of walk-ups, I guess, rather than the question of whether optional seat reservations should exist?

Of course even compulsory reservations don't mean you couldn't get the 1800 or the 1840. If you have a full price ticket for a TGV you just go to the "echange de billets" machine and exchange it for the train you want.

 

[Taunton]

I found the TGV system useful, although tedious when I had to do it with minutes to go for a late night Paris-Arras service and then found we were the only people in the carriage. Elsewhere, it had a poor logic for allocating seats, and just did them numerically from one end, so in a half full carriage everyone was all squashed in at one end, the other end being empty. Does the TGV system allow to to reserve again after the originally reserved service has departed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With some tickets I think it does.

 

[sheff1]

I’ve never met anyone who claims they can’t read.

You must have had a very sheltered life. I have met and with dealt many people (adults) who could not read, or write.

 

[pt_mad]

That's more of a question of whether there should be Advances or simply a more granular system of walk-ups, I guess, rather than the question of whether optional seat reservations should exist?

Of course even compulsory reservations don't mean you couldn't get the 1800 or the 1840. If you have a full price ticket for a TGV you just go to the "echange de billets" machine and exchange it for the train you want.

I suppose where ultra cheap advances with reservations are concerned does it even make sense to offer long distance advances for less than a tenna on trains that are likely to be standing room?

Surely if it's a case of supply and demand, such cheap advances should only be sold for trains which are usually not that full?


I often feel for the family of 4 who turns up on a Friday afternoon or Saturday morning for a leasurely weekend with hopes and excitement that they'll be gliding along sat at a table of 4. Probably been looking forward to it for weeks. Only to find all the seats are already occupied on arrival.

If I'm travelling for lesure and it's a busy route it does make me decide to take the car sometimes as it does put a downer on a day out travelling hours to the capital but having to sit at the opposite end of the carriage to the family.

Another thing which can be annoying is when you travel with a companion or family and you find that a third of the coach is empty, but most rows of 2 are occupied by one person. So there's single seat after single seat next to individual travellers. But not one double available. So you have to sit away from your family or companion.

Is it just human nature for individual travellers to occupy all the double seats with one person at a double before people start to sit next to strangers?
It doesn't seem often individual travellers double up next to strangers (having consideration for people travelling in couples or families) before all the double seats are full.

This might seem a little snobbish. But I don't think there's anyone who would plan a day trip to London or whatever with people who they love, and when they look forward to and imagine the trip, picture themselves all sitting apart on the train journey. Which could be long. I think almost everyone looking forward to a leisure trip of any distance would be imagining enjoying the train sitting together. It can be a huge disappointment for them when the reality can be standing for long periods or sitting far apart from loved ones and doing the train on your own.

 

[Ianno87]

You must have had a very sheltered life. I have met and with dealt many people (adults) who could not read, or write.

Remembering of course that its not something many people would feel comfortable publicly admitting to.

Something, that is more common of course is people who don't understand UK geography (or at least not their corner of the UK). For example, a passenger joining a Cross Country train at Peterborough for Birmingham, not realising the train has already been through Cambridge...

(Overheard on a train once: "Brighton? Is that near Harwich?")

 

[edwin_m]

Me too. Unfortunately, as the seats are squeezed up ever closer in each generation of stock, along with the general demise of facing seating bays with tables, I now find it often difficult to even get my laptop open enough to read the screen.

Regarding the more general reservation approach, it becomes ever more inappropriate with high frequency services. Trains from Euston to both Birmingham and Manchester are now every 20 minutes, essentially a turn-up-and-go service, but what a nuisance when you have gone to a business meeting in London, maybe some distance from Euston, to have to predict exactly which one will be right. Can't take the 1800 or the 1840 home, it has to be the 1820. If an unrestricted ticket was 50% more, OK, but often they are many times more, which is just inappropriate. Main line services like this are now at the frequency you find on the Underground Metropolitan Line, or out to Epping on the Central Line, but nobody suggests that you need reservations for those.

You're paying for the privilege of flexibility - it's a way the TOCs (and airlines etc) get more money out of those who are prepared to pay more. Regardless of whether this is right or not, it would be more effective if there was an easy way for the holders of such tickets to change their reservation at the last minute.

My employer has offices in most major cities so since the general policy became to buy the cheapest ticket available I often find myself booking an Advance for a later train if I don't know when a meeting will end. I then go to the local office and do a bit of work until it's time to get the train.

 

[Taunton]

(Overheard on a train once: "Brighton? Is that near Harwich?")

As we once had a (Masters degree educated) visitor to the office who thought Mexico was in the European Union, I can quite believe any combination (we all still remember that one).

One of the reasons given for eliminating the intermediate points shown on London bus destinations was when it showed say SHEPHERDS BUSH, and underneath STRAND and PICCADILLY CIRCUS, people were boarding in Oxford Street to go to Strand, not understanding it had already passed there.

 

[trainophile]

I suppose where ultra cheap advances with reservations are concerned does it even make sense to offer long distance advances for less than a tenna on trains that are likely to be standing room?

Surely if it's a case of supply and demand, such cheap advances should only be sold for trains which are usually not that full?


I often feel for the family of 4 who turns up on a Friday afternoon or Saturday morning for a leasurely weekend with hopes and excitement that they'll be gliding along sat at a table of 4. Probably been looking forward to it for weeks. Only to find all the seats are already occupied on arrival.

If I'm travelling for lesure and it's a busy route it does make me decide to take the car sometimes as it does put a downer on a day out travelling hours to the capital but having to sit at the opposite end of the carriage to the family.

Another thing which can be annoying is when you travel with a companion or family and you find that a third of the coach is empty, but most rows of 2 are occupied by one person. So there's single seat after single seat next to individual travellers. But not one double available. So you have to sit away from your family or companion.

Is it just human nature for individual travellers to occupy all the double seats with one person at a double before people start to sit next to strangers?
It doesn't seem often individual travellers double up next to strangers (having consideration for people travelling in couples or families) before all the double seats are full.

This might seem a little snobbish. But I don't think there's anyone who would plan a day trip to London or whatever with people who they love, and when they look forward to and imagine the trip, picture themselves all sitting apart on the train journey. Which could be long. I think almost everyone looking forward to a leisure trip of any distance would be imagining enjoying the train sitting together. It can be a huge disappointment for them when the reality can be standing for long periods or sitting far apart from loved ones and doing the train on your own.

People taking a seat on their own instead of doubling with a stranger is as much out of consideration for the stranger. I will offer to swap if a couple can’t get seats together.

 

[PeterC]

People taking a seat on their own instead of doubling with a stranger is as much out of consideration for the stranger. I will offer to swap if a couple can’t get seats together.

Agree, deliberately sitting next to somebody when there are free pairs available makes you look a bit weird to say the least and possibly quite threatening. Like trainophile I would also swap seats and have had people do the same for me.

 

[edwin_m]

Agree, deliberately sitting next to somebody when there are free pairs available makes you look a bit weird to say the least and possibly quite threatening. Like trainophile I would also swap seats and have had people do the same for me.

Letting them sit together also avoids them talking across the aisle while you are trying to get some work done!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As we once had a (Masters degree educated) visitor to the office who thought Mexico was in the European Union, I can quite believe any combination (we all still remember that one).

One of the reasons given for eliminating the intermediate points shown on London bus destinations was when it showed say SHEPHERDS BUSH, and underneath STRAND and PICCADILLY CIRCUS, people were boarding in Oxford Street to go to Strand, not understanding it had already passed there.

Unless you, like London Buses, live in the dark ages, removing already passed via points is not a difficult IT problem.

 

[pt_mad]

Agree, deliberately sitting next to somebody when there are free pairs available makes you look a bit weird to say the least and possibly quite threatening. Like trainophile I would also swap seats and have had people do the same for me.

Don't think there's anything weird about sitting next to someone on a train that's likely to be full before it departs just because there are free pairs. What's weird about it?

We're not all sexual predators!

 

[westv]

Agree, deliberately sitting next to somebody when there are free pairs available makes you look a bit weird to say the least .

I just find it annoying.

 

[takno]

Don't think there's anything weird about sitting next to someone on a train that's likely to be full before it departs just because there are free pairs. What's weird about it?

We're not all sexual predators!

It's incredibly incredibly uncomfortable. The perceived threat is more likely to be violent than sexual, or more practically that you will start talking and bore the hell out of them. It's also important to be aware that you may know that you are not a sexual predator, but a stranger on a train doesn't.

 

[pt_mad]

It's incredibly incredibly uncomfortable. The perceived threat is more likely to be violent than sexual, or more practically that you will start talking and bore the hell out of them. It's also important to be aware that you may know that you are not a sexual predator, but a stranger on a train doesn't.

But if it's likely to be a full train then what does it matter whether the person sits next to you three minutes after boarding or 5 minutes later when it's filling up?

The suggestion of possible violence has been mentioned as a possibility just because a person sits next to someone else before the train is filling up?

I think this may be a UK thing? Although I'm not sure? Where we tend to be a bit less social and would rather sit alone for as long as possible regardless of the fact the trains were designed for people to sit next to one another.

 

[takno]

But if it's likely to be a full train then what does it matter whether the person sits next to you three minutes after boarding or 5 minutes later when it's filling up?

The suggestion of possible violence has been mentioned as a possibility just because a person sits next to someone else before the train is filling up?

I think this may be a UK thing? Although I'm not sure? Where we tend to be a bit less social and would rather sit alone for as long as possible regardless of the fact the trains were designed for people to sit next to one another.

Entirely possible that the UK is more reserved in that respect. On trains that are clearly going to fill it makes less difference, but again perceptions of whether that is going to happen can be quite variable. Fwiw, I will usually offer to swap if I see a pair of people talking awkwardly across the aisle, I just don't see the point of getting cosy with other passengers into it's absolutely necessary, and passengers who opt to squash me in when there are double seats empty do alarm me a little

 

[Ianno87]

Agree, deliberately sitting next to somebody when there are free pairs available makes you look a bit weird to say the least and possibly quite threatening. Like trainophile I would also swap seats and have had people do the same for me.

What**?

If anything, swapping away from a seat just to avoid a person sitting next to you looks even wierder*. Sitting next to somebody like this is common on trains that are going to fill up before departure, or further along the route. Some people do it deliberately to ve near luggage/bike/door/whatever, or because they're getting off at the first station, so just trying to make life easier.


*(Although less so if you give them "I'll give you a bit more room" line in return).

**Only one instance I've had with this where I genuinely felt it was odd, where two mates got on. One sat in a vacant pair opposite me, the other next to me so they could talk facing each other across the aisle. Rather than, you know, just sitting next to each other and giving me more space...