Should Thameslink appear on the Tube map? (Now expected to appear in December on Tube map)

[34006]

Perhaps it should be an Oystercard map. If a station has an oystercard reader then its on the map. No Oystercard then it's not on the map.

 

[Kite159]

Perhaps it should be an Oystercard map. If a station has an oystercard reader then its on the map. No Oystercard then it's not on the map.

Isn't that what the current 'London's rail and Tube services' map is for, showing every station which takes contactless/oyster

 

[Kilopylae]

A fascinating exercise in malicious compliance, that map. "If we make it ugly enough, they'll have to let us take it off again after COVID."

 

[Timmyd]

This is a good idea, poorly executed. The tube map should be for high-frequency services - every 15 mins at least. Anyone who uses the Wimbledon/Sutton loop knows that this is a very neglected stretch of line, with a 30 minute frequency at best, regular cancellations and skip-stopping and not even an attempt at a replacement service at times of engineering work or disruption - TL just says take a local bus.

It also leads to some really odd anomalies. Norwood Junction is shown as having a service to London Bridge but Sydenham, Forest Hill etc - which these trains pass through non-stop, apparently don't despite having four Southern trains per hour. Others have mentioned Woolwich Dockyard etc, it all just feels very illogical.

Doing simply London Bridge/Elephant to West Hampstead/Finsbury Park would have made much more sense.

 

[Cletus]

Although out of date, this leaflet has an inner London rail map (page 5) which would be a good starting point for a future map.

http://media.limkokwing.net/pdf/others/welcome_to_london.pdf

 

[Ianno87]

Perhaps it should be an Oystercard map. If a station has an oystercard reader then its on the map. No Oystercard then it's not on the map.

Of course there are stations where contactless is valid but Oyster isn't...

 

[rebmcr]

Although out of date, this leaflet has an inner London rail map (page 5) which would be a good starting point for a future map.

http://media.limkokwing.net/pdf/others/welcome_to_london.pdf

I think the mistake that all these types of map make is to have ToCs coloured differently. If every National Rail line was the same colour, even complex layouts would be a heck of a lot more readable.

They could even be contrasted according to frequency — single lines for a 30min service, two lines (like the 1990s Thameslink and W&C) for 15 mins, and triple-piped (like the cable car) for <15min.

 

[Kite159]

I think the mistake that all these types of map make is to have ToCs coloured differently. If every National Rail line was the same colour, even complex layouts would be a heck of a lot more readable.

They could even be contrasted according to frequency — single lines for a 30min service, two lines (like the 1990s Thameslink and W&C) for 15 mins, and triple-piped (like the cable car) for <15min.

How would you colour those services which are half hourly off-peak but increase to 4tph during the peak? Ie Enfield Town branch

 

[rebmcr]

How would you colour those services which are half hourly off-peak but increase to 4tph during the peak? Ie Enfield Town branch

Solid inner line, dashed outer lines.

 

[Kilopylae]

I think the mistake that all these types of map make is to have ToCs coloured differently. If every National Rail line was the same colour, even complex layouts would be a heck of a lot more readable.

They could even be contrasted according to frequency — single lines for a 30min service, two lines (like the 1990s Thameslink and W&C) for 15 mins, and triple-piped (like the cable car) for <15min.

I'd go the other way around: the more solid the line, the greater the extent to which it's turn-up-and-go. It would be very strange to have almost the whole of Zone 1 be triple piped. It might also be worth distinguishing between ~10 minute waits and then proper high-frequency lines like Victoria or the Thameslink core - maybe those could be in a darker colour or something.

Although out of date, this leaflet has an inner London rail map (page 5) which would be a good starting point for a future map.

http://media.limkokwing.net/pdf/others/welcome_to_london.pdf

That map strikes me as a mess. Why are London Midland and Chiltern included when they don't even get as far as their first stations? Several of the junctions are full of ugly and confusing kinks (e.g. around Lewisham, around Willesden Junction, around Clapton). Why are the dots out of alignment on the lines out of Paddington, and what's the logic on whether or not they're bunched? The way Waterloo and Waterloo East is drawn excludes the interchange at Southwark and encourages all Southeastern passengers who want London Underground to walk through the Waterloo concourse, which is going to be at odds with the signage in the station and generate horrible crowds. The Picadilly line looks broken just to one side of Green Park and between Holborn and Kings Cross St Pancras.

And lastly, though this is just personal preference, I think it's skewed too much to the north and west. The whole DLR should be on it, as should at least some of the trams and the high-intensity south London lines (e.g. including East Croydon would be helpful).

 

[rebmcr]

I'd go the other way around: the more solid the line, the greater the extent to which it's turn-up-and-go. It would be very strange to have almost the whole of Zone 1 be triple piped. It might also be worth distinguishing between ~10 minute waits and then proper high-frequency lines like Victoria or the Thameslink core - maybe those could be in a darker colour or something.

I'd still do the tube lines in their usual colours, only the ToCs would receive the monochromatic piped treatment.

 

[SynthD]

It sounds like people want a Tube and Rail big map that covers roughly what the current one does, which grows as Oyster/contactless does. I’m still expecting Oyster to be freed from the 16 zones limit and catch up to contactless.
People also want a smaller map that is simplified by the geography it covers, not by the services it shows? We want to see Wembley and Ealing to Abbey Wood and Barking, or Willesden Junction and Putney to Lewisham and Custom House? Cut back to Canning Town so we don’t have to include the cable car

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'd go the other way around: the more solid the line, the greater the extent to which it's turn-up-and-go. It would be very strange to have almost the whole of Zone 1 be triple piped. It might also be worth distinguishing between ~10 minute waits and then proper high-frequency lines like Victoria or the Thameslink core - maybe those could be in a darker colour or something.


That map strikes me as a mess. Why are London Midland and Chiltern included when they don't even get as far as their first stations? Several of the junctions are full of ugly and confusing kinks (e.g. around Lewisham, around Willesden Junction, around Clapton). Why are the dots out of alignment on the lines out of Paddington, and what's the logic on whether or not they're bunched? The way Waterloo and Waterloo East is drawn excludes the interchange at Southwark and encourages all Southeastern passengers who want London Underground to walk through the Waterloo concourse, which is going to be at odds with the signage in the station and generate horrible crowds. The Picadilly line looks broken just to one side of Green Park and between Holborn and Kings Cross St Pancras.

And lastly, though this is just personal preference, I think it's skewed too much to the north and west. The whole DLR should be on it, as should at least some of the trams and the high-intensity south London lines (e.g. including East Croydon would be helpful).

It’s wrong too; not only does it show London Midland without it calling anywhere, but it should be calling somewhere! Peak trains on weekdays serve Wembley Central.

You’re wrong about Chiltern Railways though, you can see it reaches Sudbury Hill Harrow in the top left, showing the connection with the Piccadilly line.

 

[Mikey C]

It’s wrong too; not only does it show London Midland without it calling anywhere, but it should be calling somewhere! Peak trains on weekdays serve Wembley Central.

You’re wrong about Chiltern Railways though, you can see it reaches Sudbury Hill Harrow in the top left, showing the connection with the Piccadilly line.

More importantly for a visitor it also has the somewhat more useful (and frequent) Wembley Stadium station!

 

[47444]

Isn't that what the current 'London's rail and Tube services' map is for, showing every station which takes contactless/oyster

In my opinion, if London were any city in Germany, then the "Rail and Tube Services" diagram would be the default display.

If the result is considered too complicated then sub-diagrams should be mode specific - i.e. Tube only.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Personally I think that time was when London Overground expanded to South London. The principle that according to the TfL map you can only get from Clapham to Wimbledon via West Brompton is a bit silly. And yes, I do know people who have done that.

I once knew a girl who was going to go from Southfields to Balham from Southfields-West Brom-Clapham-Clapham High Street-Balham

 

[su31]

Regarding the colouring of the TOC lines on the maps - on the December 2020 Tube map, the Thameslink line is shown in magenta, whereas on the Rail & Tube map, it's a yellowish-gold. I appreciate the yellowish-gold wouldn't look good on the Tube map, but it's inconsistent! I have since been corrected!

 

[Dstock7080]

Regarding the colouring of the TOC lines on the maps - on the December 2020 Tube map, the Thameslink line is shown in magenta, whereas on the Rail & Tube map, it's a yellowish-gold. I appreciate the yellowish-gold wouldn't look good on the Tube map, but it's inconsistent!

On the December 2020 poster Rail & Tube services map, Thameslink is in the same magenta as the December 2020 dated Tube map above.

 

[su31]

On the December 2020 poster Rail & Tube services map, Thameslink is in the same magenta as the December 2020 dated Tube map above.

I stand corrected. For some reason, I was looking at the Great Northern route. Ignore my post

 

[Mikey C]

Diamond Geezer has written about the pocket version of this, which isn't the same as the pocket map is a different shape.

It's horrible, with ludicrous bends on the Thameslink route!

diamond geezer

diamondgeezer.blogspot.com

 

[Hadders]

The rather large connector blob at Finsbury Park does have a degree of accuracy given the ridiculous one-way system you have to follow when changing from Thameslink to the Underground.

 

[Recessio]

Diamond Geezer has written about the pocket version of this, which isn't the same as the pocket map is a different shape.

It's horrible, with ludicrous bends on the Thameslink route!

diamond geezer

diamondgeezer.blogspot.com

TfL must be doing a deliberately bad job of the map to try convince that they don't need Thameslink on the map in the future. I refuse to believe someone stood back from that and considered it a job well done.

 

[Skimble19]

Diamond Geezer has written about the pocket version of this, which isn't the same as the pocket map is a different shape.

It's horrible, with ludicrous bends on the Thameslink route!

diamond geezer

diamondgeezer.blogspot.com

That’s worse than ever, and still doesn’t resolve the bizarre inclusion of the 3 Great Northern stations whilst missing out Alexandra Palace south of them.

 

[LeeLivery]

This is like when a child doesn't want to wash the dishes, so they do it badly, thinking they won't be made to do it again. Laziness.

 

[urbophile]

I once knew a girl who was going to go from Southfields to Balham from Southfields-West Brom-Clapham-Clapham High Street-Balham

Hmm! I thought you meant West Bromwich for a minute. But then there isn't really an easy way to get from Southfields to Balham by train. Knowing the area, I'd get a bus to the Junction then a couple of stops by Southern to Balham. Or if I was starting off at the Earlsfield end of Southfields, one stop to the Junction then change.

 

[heenan73]

I think the time has come for the tube map to show all services but in zones 1 and 2 only, and leave the rest for the London & South East Rail and Tube map.

Where's the logic in that?
What have you got against the nice people in Zone 3*?
The whole point of the tube map is to be useful as possible to as many people as possible; not for the convenience of map makers.

*And the not-so-nice people, for that matter.

 

[Domh245]

Where's the logic in that?
What have you got against the nice people in Zone 3*?
The whole point of the tube map is to be useful as possible to as many people as possible; not for the convenience of map makers.

*And the not-so-nice people, for that matter.

Because by the time you get to Zone 3, a map of just TfL services is far less useful than one showing all public transport services (excluding busses as it'd just be a sea of Red then!), particularly in South London.

A tube map that denies the existence of the high frequency services into Waterloo, Victoria, Cannon Street & Charing X is not at all convenient for people trying to use it

 

[Hadders]

Where's the logic in that?
What have you got against the nice people in Zone 3*?
The whole point of the tube map is to be useful as possible to as many people as possible; not for the convenience of map makers.

*And the not-so-nice people, for that matter.

Arguably the full map has become far too busy making it difficult and confusing for many.

 

[Mikey C]

Because by the time you get to Zone 3, a map of just TfL services is far less useful than one showing all public transport services (excluding busses as it'd just be a sea of Red then!), particularly in South London.

A tube map that denies the existence of the high frequency services into Waterloo, Victoria, Cannon Street & Charing X is not at all convenient for people trying to use it

Just showing TfL services gives a really misleading impression of London for visitors

At least when it was Tube only, most people would realise that "surface rail" took you to other places, but once you start adding Overground commuter lines onto the map, visitors may start thinking that that IS London's rail network full stop, with Overground being the surface rail option.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Just showing TfL services gives a really misleading impression of London for visitors

At least when it was Tube only, most people would realise that "surface rail" took you to other places, but once you start adding Overground commuter lines onto the map, visitors may start thinking that that IS London's rail network full stop, with Overground being the surface rail option.

Until some of the "mainline" routes started being run by TfL, and branded Overground (with a cap O), it was common parlance amongst everyone I knew for all the "proper" trains that ran in the London suburbs to be colloquially called "overground" (small o). Amongst long-time Londoners that still causes confusion - with people saying things like, "No time for a bus, I'll get the overground - with a small o..."