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Should the Chiltern Mainline be upgraded?

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EcsWhyZee

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I wonder what members with red hair will make of this thread's title (or even those who are step-children!).
I actually happen to be a red head; white skin, freckles and all! (Though admittedly I am not a step child)

As said above it’s just an old phrase, but despite being 27 I use it a lot. It applies to a lot of old ignored systems in the world of software consulting.

Apologies if anyone was legitimately offended!
 
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CW2

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It rather depends on what you mean by "upgraded". The principal route from London to Birmingham is the WCML. In future that will become a secondary route to HS2, with Chiltern becoming a tertiary route. So the main role of the Chiltern line is not to provide services from London to Birmingham as fast as possible, but rather to provide an inter-regional style of service, linking intermediate centres of population. Any "upgrade" it receives should be aimed at helping it t continue to fill that specific role.
 

swt_passenger

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Aren't some of the Chiltern units a bit . . . wide . . . for other areas?
It isn’t as big an issue as people think, they didn’t do very much at all to let them work on any number of GWR routes in the south and southwest...
 

The Ham

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The short answer is that any rail route with significant numbers of services which is currently not electrified should be upgraded by being electrified within the next 15 years. However you measure it the Chiltern line a be fairly high up that list (we can argue about what should get done before or after if you like but hopefully that's something which few would disagree with).

Anything beyond that (100/110mph EMU's, faster line speeds, newer signals, etc.) would be things that are nice to have or are things which may happen over time anyway (as others have pointed out most mainline, as opposed to metro, EMU's of late have been 110mph even if the lines don't accommodate that speed).

Within working on electrification there may well be bits you would change to ensure that a low speed section doesn't get baked in because of the putting up of wires (as once the wires are up it's then now expensive to change things). However, generally this is fairly limited in scope unless there's sections of single track (the odd junction here and there or a few tight(er) bends along a route which slow speeds when otherwise a faster line speed could be used).

It could well be that the Chiltern line could have sections of 110mph limits without needing to do any works, however whether they see much traffic running at those speeds is another matter because of other services being in the way (although could help with making up lost time on late running services).

Personally I think that the electrification of the line should focus on sorting the commuter services around Birmingham first with a infill to bridge the gap between them and Oxford (once it's done) and then look at what's done after that (or maybe in parallel).
 

Purple Orange

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Electrification. It needs to happen. To put it one way, any line that feeds in to a major city centre station should become electrified. This line feeds in to London & Birmingham and if those two cities can’t see all it’s lines electrified, what hope is there for decarbonisation and becoming net-zero by 2050?

The question is more about how to sequence such a project and it is imperative that electrification sees a huge injection of impetus.
 

cle

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There are a couple of stations where you could restore passing sections.
Definitely - thinking Beaconsfield and Denham. Wembley Stadium was reverted, but I'm not sure if that would be so beneficial. A High Wycombe re-build/alignment might open up more options too. Those to me are the capacity drains - being so close to the London end.

West of HW, the higher speeds might be useful, but it is 100mph in parts so 110 may not be that instrumental. Banbury-Leamington is 125mph, correct? So the extra 10 could kick in there too
 

The Planner

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Definitely - thinking Beaconsfield and Denham. Wembley Stadium was reverted, but I'm not sure if that would be so beneficial. A High Wycombe re-build/alignment might open up more options too. Those to me are the capacity drains - being so close to the London end.

West of HW, the higher speeds might be useful, but it is 100mph in parts so 110 may not be that instrumental. Banbury-Leamington is 125mph, correct? So the extra 10 could kick in there too
No, Banbury Leamington is 90mph mainly with a bit of 95mph HST and the 75 over Knightcote as I noted earlier. Doubt you could do much at Denham now with the centre platform.
 

Railwaysceptic

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So the main role of the Chiltern line is not to provide services from London to Birmingham as fast as possible, but rather to provide an inter-regional style of service, linking intermediate centres of population. Any "upgrade" it receives should be aimed at helping it t continue to fill that specific role.
The main role of the Chiltern Line is to facilitate whichever train services Chiltern Railways or their successors find most expedient to run.
 

Wolfie

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If the rumours about the DfT removing 'TOC-only' and route specific fares come to fruition, very few people will use the Chiltern route to get from London to Birmingham and it can concentrate on the intermediate journeys.
If DfT do that on the Brum route Avanti capacity will become, particularly during CV, an issue very fast. Pretty much everyone using LNWR and/or Chiltern who actually continues to travel by train (a lot will be lost) will look to use the fastest service
 

Bletchleyite

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If DfT do that on the Brum route Avanti capacity will become, particularly during CV, an issue very fast. Pretty much everyone using LNWR and/or Chiltern who actually continues to travel by train (a lot will be lost) will look to use the fastest service

I'm inclined to think they will actually keep "route High Wycombe" fares to provide a market price differentiation (and because they're not technically TOC specific so tick a box). I'm less inclined to think that the LNR Only fares will stay, though some Advances might[1]. The latter have been around a long time, but the service was not always such that people wanted to use it - 1tph with a change at Northampton meant hardly anyone was, and the Pendolinos weren't overcrowded then.

I would be very surprised if route specific fares went away entirely, because they are a good way of preventing anomalies. TOC specific fares probably will, though.

[1] It's possible I suppose that all route/TOC-based price differentiation would be done using Advance Purchase on the Day, because Advances aren't confusing (the point they're making) because you just use the trains printed on it - the simplest form of ticket possible.
 

Wolfie

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I'm inclined to think they will actually keep "route High Wycombe" fares to provide a market price differentiation (and because they're not technically TOC specific so tick a box). I'm less inclined to think that the LNR Only fares will stay, though some Advances might[1]. The latter have been around a long time, but the service was not always such that people wanted to use it - 1tph with a change at Northampton meant hardly anyone was, and the Pendolinos weren't overcrowded then.

I would be very surprised if route specific fares went away entirely, because they are a good way of preventing anomalies. TOC specific fares probably will, though.

[1] It's possible I suppose that all route/TOC-based price differentiation would be done using Advance Purchase on the Day, because Advances aren't confusing (the point they're making) because you just use the trains printed on it - the simplest form of ticket possible.
There seems to be a degree of sense in that. Precedent suggests DfT does not always show that.
 

philosopher

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Definitely - thinking Beaconsfield and Denham. Wembley Stadium was reverted, but I'm not sure if that would be so beneficial. A High Wycombe re-build/alignment might open up more options too. Those to me are the capacity drains - being so close to the London end.

West of HW, the higher speeds might be useful, but it is 100mph in parts so 110 may not be that instrumental. Banbury-Leamington is 125mph, correct? So the extra 10 could kick in there too
Could it be sped up between Marylebone and Wembley Stadium? I think it only 60mph for that section, which is quite slow.
 

CW2

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The main role of the Chiltern Line is to facilitate whichever train services Chiltern Railways or their successors find most expedient to run.
Once that was indeed true, but not any more. I would argue that in the post-franchising world it won't be down to a franchisee (or equivalent) to determine the service levels and stopping patterns.
And a good job too. Unfettered "competition" simply fills the network with lots of small trains and produces sclerosis and paralysis.
 

deltic

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The Avanti services weren't overcrowded before COVID so are unlikely to be so after it. 3 11-car Pendolinos an hour are a lot of train.



Most non-enthusiasts don't care what type of train it is, they just want the fastest or cheapest one. If the latter criterion disappears, then "fastest" is the only thing they will care about.
As someone who regularly travelled on business between London and Birmingham, where cost was not an issue, I would more often that not go Chiltern as the trains were quieter and more spacious and hence more productive to work on
 

Railwaysceptic

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As someone who regularly travelled on business between London and Birmingham, where cost was not an issue, I would more often that not go Chiltern as the trains were quieter and more spacious and hence more productive to work on
I used to travel at my own expense and not at work and cost was something I took into consideration. Chiltern allowed me with advance fares to do the journey for £5.00! I always went with Chiltern!

This is why I'm not convinced it's game, set and match for this route.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is why I'm not convinced it's game, set and match for this route.

I don't think it is either. The main thing they want to stop is "petty spat" competition like TPE/Northern, Gatwick and Avanti/LNR from MKC south - those cases where it doesn't add any benefit because the fares are pennies different. Price differentiation to split markets is actually quite effective.

After all, market differentiation by product (e.g. RE, IR, IC, ICE etc) is more common than not across Europe - at least half of the nationalised operators do that, and there's no particular reason a UK one shouldn't. In essence, HS2 would be ICE, residual Avanti services IC, and Chiltern and LNR both RE. That's also not a very complex thing to clearly print on tickets - much less complex than specific TOCs and routes via places you've never heard of.
 
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Metal_gee_man

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I don't think it is either. The main thing they want to stop is "petty spat" competition like TPE/Northern, Gatwick and Avanti/LNR from MKC south - those cases where it doesn't add any benefit because the fares are pennies different. Price differentiation to split markets is actually quite effective.

After all, market differentiation by product (e.g. RE, IR, IC, ICE etc) is more common than not across Europe - at least half of the nationalised operators do that, and there's no particular reason a UK one shouldn't. In essence, HS2 would be ICE, residual Avanti services IC, and Chiltern and LNR both RE. That's also not a very complex thing to clearly print on tickets - much less complex than specific TOCs and routes via places you've never heard of.
100% this ☝
 

JonathanH

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I don't think it is either. The main thing they want to stop is "petty spat" competition like TPE/Northern, Gatwick and Avanti/LNR from MKC south - those cases where it doesn't add any benefit because the fares are pennies different. Price differentiation to split markets is actually quite effective.
I am pretty sure that the government's starting point with be that there is one single fare from London to Birmingham, with a different level in a blanket peak. It would certainly make sense with HS2 on the horizon. Why not take the opportunity now to simplify the fares, rather than when HS2 is launched? Whether they are encouraged to retain some of the differentiation is the next step. I am sure that if you had a focus group on railway fares in the general population, they would state that they want there to be one fare without any of the complexity.

That seems to fit with the idea that Grant Shapps talked about of "Our new deal for rail demands more for passengers. It will simplify people’s journeys, ending the uncertainty and confusion about whether you are using the right ticket or the right train company.".

You could argue that Chiltern / LNR / Avanti offering three fares very much is a "petty spat". The displacement from Birmingham to London is the same in each case. Why not the same price? That is what the (some of the) general public don't understand.

The media have a field day with stuff like this (pages and pages of multiple fares and options)
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=EUS&dest=BHM
especially when compared to something like this (straightforward peak and off-peak fares)
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=NCL&dest=SBS
or even this (of comparable distance, actually shorter, and more expensive than London to Birmingham)
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=STP&dest=LEI

Note that I don't necessarily agree with this - I am lucky not to suffer from uncertainty and confusion about using the right ticket or train company - indeed, a flat fare of, say, £35 off-peak single (and maybe £90 peak single) to travel from London to Birmingham any route as the only fare, would be enough to make me think twice about making a discretionary journey that I might previously have made on Chiltern or LNR - but I think it is the simplicity that people claim to want and the government know that. I don't think it could be argued that £35 single for London to Birmingham is far off what the economic cost is, perhaps it is even a bit cheap.

In any case, I think the Treasury also wants shot of £5, £6 fares from London to Birmingham in the light of what has happened this year to try to increase the yield. They are going to have to have a lot of encouragement to allow fares at those sort of levels to persist.

After all, market differentiation by product (e.g. RE, IR, IC, ICE etc) is more common than not across Europe - at least half of the nationalised operators do that, and there's no particular reason a UK one shouldn't. In essence, HS2 would be ICE, residual Avanti services IC, and Chiltern and LNR both RE. That's also not a very complex thing to clearly print on tickets - much less complex than specific TOCs and routes via places you've never heard of.
We don't have, and will never have, that kind of demarcation as has been noted in the past. It is too complicated for people to understand, especially where the IC train becomes the RE service. I don't see how it satisfies the bold text above.

So, on the topic of enhancing the Chiltern line, yes, it needs electrification in due course but it also needs to scale back ambitions on being a link between London and Birmingham, concentrate on the intermediate journeys (which of course aren't so cheap) and remove the cheap fares from London to Birmingham is part of that.
 

bramling

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As someone who regularly travelled on business between London and Birmingham, where cost was not an issue, I would more often that not go Chiltern as the trains were quieter and more spacious and hence more productive to work on

I suspect for every one doing that there’s at least one who does the opposite. I agree Chiltern can be a superb experience if one hits a sweet-spot, however I had one too many overcrowded slow journeys which were akin to being properly tortured. WCML it is for me - every time.
 

cle

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I used to travel at my own expense and not at work and cost was something I took into consideration. Chiltern allowed me with advance fares to do the journey for £5.00! I always went with Chiltern!

This is why I'm not convinced it's game, set and match for this route.
I don't think so either. Plus there are more combinations - for example very outer NW London people might use High Wycombe, and similarly, the Solihull demand to London would logically follow Chiltern. Banbury, Leamington and Warwick > London markets too - it still has a 'longer distance' purpose. Stratford uA too.

It's a very varied route - two big cities at either end, with that city to city journey but then a good amount of commuting into each - some rural, but wealthy/monopoly routes in Bucks - the craziness of Bicester, the critical mass of a few medium sized 'exclusive' journeys I mentioned before - and then of course now Oxford in the mix too.
 

6Gman

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It isn’t as big an issue as people think, they didn’t do very much at all to let them work on any number of GWR routes in the south and southwest...
But presumably the fact that they are ex-GW may be relevant?
 

swt_passenger

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But presumably the fact that they are ex-GW may be relevant?
Not necessarily, as I’m including the Southampton, Eastleigh, Portsmouth, Brighton areas in that. They were also route cleared Guildford to Basingstoke via Woking, and Redhill to Selhurst a few years ago for ECS moves, and that happened a bit under the radar too...
 

Mikey C

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To answer the question, yes

1) To remove DMUs out of London and Birmingham, I can see real political pressure to remove diesel trains from major city centres within the next 10 years, which will require at least partial electrification of some sort. By 2030 all the buses in London will probably be electric, and electric cars will be common.
2) To enable longer trains to be introduced without purchasing a whole new fleet of DMUs. It's not just about current levels of overcrowding, a lot of new housebuilding is planned in the towns along the route
3) A unified 100mph fleet. The 75mph 165s are a real nuisance when they operate stopping services on the mainline
 

Bletchleyite

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3) A unified 100mph fleet. The 75mph 165s are a real nuisance when they operate stopping services on the mainline

They feel sluggish, but I looked at a timetable and it's near enough 30 miles both from Marylebone to Wycombe, and from Euston to Tring, and with a similar number of stops - and (to my great surprise) both have an almost identical running time of about 45 minutes, despite the 350s being much quicker off the mark.
 

py_megapixel

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To answer the question, yes

1) To remove DMUs out of London and Birmingham, I can see real political pressure to remove diesel trains from major city centres within the next 10 years, which will require at least partial electrification of some sort.
Would be great if DfT hadn't only a few years ago authorised large orders of brand new DMUs for no less than three operators in different parts of the country, all of which serve major city centres, then!
 

Bletchleyite

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Would be great if DfT hadn't only a few years ago authorised large orders of brand new DMUs for no less than three operators in different parts of the country, all of which serve major city centres, then!

To be fair, wasn't the idea that in time those would be cascaded to the branch lines as the urban lines they currently run on are electrified, which would allow cascading out of all the ex-BR units and even in time classes 170, 175, 180 and 185? That was the justification put about for ordering 2-car units which is otherwise a nonsense.
 
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