Should the UK engage in a selective programme of rewilding?

[johnnychips]

There are 24 wolves reported to be now living in the wild in Belgium.

But are they French-speaking wolves or Dutch-speaking? If the former, then Flanders will soon be demanding equal numbers.

 

[SJL2020]

The Blean Wood project in Kent continues to evolve in interesting ways...

Pigs and ponies join UK’s wild bison to recreate prehistoric landscape

Ancient breeds will act as ecosystem engineers to convert commercial pine plantation into a wild wood

www.theguardian.com

 

[deltic]

The Blean Wood project in Kent continues to evolve in interesting ways...

Pigs and ponies join UK’s wild bison to recreate prehistoric landscape

Ancient breeds will act as ecosystem engineers to convert commercial pine plantation into a wild wood

www.theguardian.com

At some stage they will need to introduce predators or otherwise you end up having to cull the animals.

Beavers are being re-introduced into some areas including Ealing in London.

 

[Iskra]

Great to see something happening up North on this

Yorkshire Dales tree plan to recreate long-lost forest

Hundreds of thousands of trees will be planted to recreate long-lost woodlands, a charity says.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[61653 HTAFC]

At some stage they will need to introduce predators or otherwise you end up having to cull the animals.

Beavers are being re-introduced into some areas including Ealing in London.

The lack of predators (and relative unpopularity of hunting) is one of the reasons that deer populations are reaching problem levels in certain areas of the UK. During lockdown deer were sighted venturing into Huddersfield town centre, and even in regular times occasionally find themselves straying onto the section of the ring road between the junctions with the A640 (Rochdale) and A643 (Bradford) roads where they present a hazard to traffic.

 

[PeterC]

Wolves are in every European country except Belgium and Luxembourg. Would you like to provide some examples of them proving dangerous to humans? I’ve been hillwalking in Spain with Wolves howling around me and not felt threatened in the slightest. Keystone predators are essential for a properly functioning ecosystem, their absence is one of the main reasons Britain’s is so broken.

Having said that, there may well be good arguments against reintroducing them in terms of lack of suitable habitat or potential depredations on livestock but not because of any realistic threat to humans.

From reports that I have seen the risk to humans comes from the guard dogs protecting sheep.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From reports that I have seen the risk to humans comes from the guard dogs protecting sheep.

What guard dogs protecting sheep? Farms have dogs which partly exist to guard the buildings etc, but in extensive hiking for many years I've never come across a "guard dog protecting sheep" ever.

 

[SJL2020]

Great to see something happening up North on this

Yorkshire Dales tree plan to recreate long-lost forest

Hundreds of thousands of trees will be planted to recreate long-lost woodlands, a charity says.

www.bbc.co.uk

There's a few ambitious projects announced recently. e.g. Here's one in Argyll that I have supported in various ways.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...vallich-estate-new-owner-highlands-rewilding/

 

[BananaRepublic]

……..Beavers are being re-introduced into some areas including Ealing in London.

Well, I’ll be dammed!

 

[al78]

The lack of predators (and relative unpopularity of hunting) is one of the reasons that deer populations are reaching problem levels in certain areas of the UK. During lockdown deer were sighted venturing into Huddersfield town centre, and even in regular times occasionally find themselves straying onto the section of the ring road between the junctions with the A640 (Rochdale) and A643 (Bradford) roads where they present a hazard to traffic.

That is why deer have to be culled, because humans killed off their predators. Human induced perturbations to ecosystems do cause damage which sometimes has to be rectified by artificial methods, dismissing them as unimportant because we (humans) don't need them is hideously arrogant and shows detachment from the natural world and how ecosystems operate.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

At some stage they will need to introduce predators or otherwise you end up having to cull the animals.

Out of interest, if you re-introduce the (apex) predators, then how do you keep the predator numbers down without culling them?

 

[najaB]

Out of interest, if you re-introduce the (apex) predators, then how do you keep the predator numbers down without culling them?

Predator numbers are limited by the availability of food (the prey animals).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Predator numbers are limited by the availability of food (the prey animals).

Thanks! But being limited by the availability of food is surely true of any animal. So that doesn't really explain why, in the absence of predators, we would need to cull some animals but apparently not the predators.

 

[deltic]

Thanks! But being limited by the availability of food is surely true of any animal. So that doesn't really explain why, in the absence of predators, we would need to cull some animals but apparently not the predators.

Because there is generally plenty of food for animals like deer and especially wild pigs to eat all year round. However, there have been issues in Veluwe national park in the Netherlands where pictures of animals (horses, deer, cattle) clearly starving during the winter has led to a backlash against increasing rewilding there. The problem would not have arisen if there was a predator that took out the weakened animals and maintained a more stable population.

 

[Box]

Thanks! But being limited by the availability of food is surely true of any animal. So that doesn't really explain why, in the absence of predators, we would need to cull some animals but apparently not the predators.

It’s a tough life being a predator, deer are rather trickier to find and catch than grass or leaves! In a “balanced” ecosystem predator numbers are always relatively tiny and constrained by their prey. Problems come if there is a plentiful supply of substitutes if normal prey runs short - sheep for example, which is why there are legitimate concerns about reintroducing wolves, although the rest of Europe seems to manage ok.

 

[Iskra]

It’s a tough life being a predator, deer are rather trickier to find and catch than grass or leaves! In a “balanced” ecosystem predator numbers are always relatively tiny and constrained by their prey. Problems come if there is a plentiful supply of substitutes if normal prey runs short - sheep for example, which is why there are legitimate concerns about reintroducing wolves, although the rest of Europe seems to manage ok.

In rural Southern Italy, the sheep and goats are accompanied by a shepherd, as well as a number of big dogs. So, yes they manage okay, but it doesn’t seem very productive use of a farmers time compared to the UK where you can pretty much leave sheep unsupervised.

 

[najaB]

So, yes they manage okay, but it doesn’t seem very productive use of a farmers time compared to the UK where you can pretty much leave sheep unsupervised.

Which is a sound argument, if one is of the opinion that the world belongs to humans.

 

[Yew]

What guard dogs protecting sheep? Farms have dogs which partly exist to guard the buildings etc, but in extensive hiking for many years I've never come across a "guard dog protecting sheep" ever.

Slightly off topic, but this is something that happens in the alps, they're used to scare off wolves and bears.

 

[Iskra]

Which is a sound argument, if one is of the opinion that the world belongs to humans.

But surely it’s more natural to let sheep roam unsupervised?

 

[SJL2020]

But surely it’s more natural to let sheep roam unsupervised?

Sheep aren't a native animal to the UK, so there's nothing natural about them being here.

 

[najaB]

But surely it’s more natural to let sheep roam unsupervised?

In Turkey and into Persia, sure. Since that's where they are originally from.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

At some stage they will need to introduce predators or otherwise you end up having to cull the animals.

And the irony is... the only significant objection to culling the animals tends to be people who think it's inhumane/wrong for humans to cull them. But I'd bet, provided the people doing the culling are properly trained and so will be shooting to instantly kill, being shot is likely to be miles more humane than being hunted down, savaged, and eaten by a predator - yet somehow no-one seems to object on humanitarian grounds to that happening.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Apr 2023 ==

Which is a sound argument, if one is of the opinion that the world belongs to humans.

And that brings up a little discussed philosophical point of why we try to manage the environment in the first place. I don't think I'd quite go as far as to say the World belongs to humans - I can see some ethical grounds for wanting to protect other species - but at the same time, surely much of the point of protecting bio-diversity/rewilding (and even things like acting to prevent climate change) is to make the World a more pleasant place for us humans to inhabit. It happens by happy coincidence that ensuring that many other species survive and occupy the land turns out to be a good way of doing that.

Humans are, for all our faults, the only species that appears capable of studying ecology, deliberately managing it, and actually taking the decision to protect other species on ethical grounds - most animals appear to lack any ethics beyond, eating whatever they can and possibly some care for their mates/offspring. The 'natural' World, for all its superficial beauty, is generally a world full of cruelty and suffering, as wild creatures routinely eat each other alive without compassion. That alone seems to give some reason why we should manage the ecology in a way that ensures human welfare.

For reasons to do with that, although I totally support rewilding, I'd also be very much opposed to (re-)introducing species that are likely to pose a danger to people: That's just defeating the point of making the World a better place (for people)!

 

[cb a1]

For me, the whole point of rewilding is that it's wild. In my eyes, wild means the absence of human intervention. If humans are needed to intervene, then it's no longer wild.
Appreciate there's the argument that humans are part of nature, but that would then mean everywhere is wild when it's clear that not the intention.
For humans not to intervene, you need a fully functioning food web and cycle which needs food, prey, predators and decomposers.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

For me, the whole point of rewilding is that it's wild. In my eyes, wild means the absence of human intervention. If humans are needed to intervene, then it's no longer wild.
Appreciate there's the argument that humans are part of nature, but that would then mean everywhere is wild when it's clear that not the intention.

Wouldn't the mere fact that we've deliberately rewilded it not in itself count as human intervention? It is after all not possible to rewild it without making specific decisions about exactly what you are going to plant and release in the area.

 

[cb a1]

Wouldn't the mere fact that we've deliberately rewilded it not in itself count as human intervention? It is after all not possible to rewild it without making specific decisions about exactly what you are going to plant and release in the area.

Yes it does.
So, I have my desired outcome but it can only be arrived at through an imperfect process.
Two idioms could apply here.
Should I let perfection be the enemy of good? Does the end justify the means?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

This is a fascinating thread and some great arguments and points. I saw a documentary of what happened in Yellowstone National Park in the USA when wolves were reintroduced- big INCREASE in biodiversity. I like the idea of rewilding.

 

[D821]

I always find it fascinating how just leaving a piece of land to itself will often lead to it having a wide variety of plants, trees, shrubs and flowers within a couple of years.

 

[najaB]

I always find it fascinating how just leaving a piece of land to itself will often lead to it having a wide variety of plants, trees, shrubs and flowers within a couple of years.

Indeed it will. Though usually significantly different to what you would find in a truly natural environment.

 

[PeterC]

What guard dogs protecting sheep? Farms have dogs which partly exist to guard the buildings etc, but in extensive hiking for many years I've never come across a "guard dog protecting sheep" ever.

OK I typed "guard" instead of "guardian". Livestock guardian dogs definitely exist and are used where there are significant populations of large carnivores

 

[cb a1]

I understand that llamas are very effective at protecting other more vulnerable livestock.