Should We Leave the EU?

[Howardh]

Thirdly, if the UK does withdraw the right of EU (etc) nationals to live and work there, and applies it to people already legally resident there, and starts deporting/repatriating/requiring them to leave, why would they all head to Belfast?

Fourthly, assuming all the above, what solution can members of this forum come up with?

3. Because it's so simple to fly to Dublin from Europe, walk through immigration there with an EU passport perfectly legally, and then bus or rail to Belfast (or any Norn location) which puts you immediately in the UK, even though you have no job to go to and little in savings.
If I were Polish and wanted to work in a warehouse in Manchester for £5/hr cash-in-hand, and couldn't get in legally (as that job would be illegal) via UK airports, then the Irish route is the obvious way in. Flight, bus, ferry.
But even if an EU citizen needs to show ID between Norn and Scotland, being in Norn means he is still in the UK and would have to be dealt with by the UK authorities there (ie us, the taxpayer). So whether he's in Belfast or Bolton, the cost to us is the same.

4. The solution if you want to leave is to construct a solid border between Norn and Eire. Or/and have vast armies of well-paid officials - at great cost to the taxpayer - searching every warehouse, factory, kitchen to find illegals and then dump them out of the country (as if rubbish, hence my term). They're humans, remember?

Or we could simply stay in the EU and work together. The real problem is working for below minimum wages; which will happen EU or not. If I'm jobless, and someone offers me £5/hr cash to deliver leaflets, it's illegal but I'll do it. Undermining the firm that pays the MW. That's a UK problem, not EU. Leaving the EU won't solve it.
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I'm not 100% convinced that the "EU illegals" will be beating a path to live in Belfast in the event of Brexit. Photo ID is already required to travel between Eire and the U.K. Mainland, so the requirement for that ID to be a passport wouldn't introduce too much extra hassle.

Belfast isn't in Eire (it's in the UK) so there is no need (AFAIK) for photo ID - certainly not a passport - on the ferry between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. I may be wrong, but I'd be very surprised.
So once in Belfast, or any place in Norn, you are in the UK and therefore are at liberty to travel freely, without hindrance or ID, throughout the UK.
You may need photo ID to fly, but that's a separate terrorist issue. Dont' think it's required for a ferry. Maybe when there are security alerts? Can they identify foreign nationals and check their passports? Possibly - dunno. Anyone with experience?

 

[anme]

3. Because it's so simple to fly to Dublin from Europe, walk through immigration there with an EU passport perfectly legally, and then bus or rail to Belfast (or any Norn location) which puts you immediately in the UK, even though you have no job to go to and little in savings.
If I were Polish and wanted to work in a warehouse in Manchester for £5/hr cash-in-hand, and couldn't get in legally (as that job would be illegal) via UK airports, then the Irish route is the obvious way in. Flight, bus, ferry.

I'm not convinced many Poles dream of working in warehouse in Manchester for £5/hr.
But anyway the obvious solution would be to make an internal border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. It would be much easier to do that (at the relevant ports/airports) than imposing a physical border between NI and the Republic.

Of course, it would mean ID being required to travel between NI and England, Scotland and Wales, but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs - the omelette being Britain's isolation from the rest of Europe and the eggs being the ability to travel freely between all parts of the UK without documentation.

Alternatively, which do the "leavers" prefer - leaving the EU and giving NI to the Republic, or staying in the EU and keeping NI as part of the UK?

4. The solution if you want to leave is to construct a solid border between Norn and Eire. Or/and have vast armies of well-paid officials - at great cost to the taxpayer - searching every warehouse, factory, kitchen to find illegals and then dump them out of the country (as if rubbish, hence my term). They're humans, remember?

My solution is cheaper and easier.

Or we could simply stay in the EU and work together.

I agree. And I strongly urge everyone to vote "remain".

 

[Barn]

Again, I think there is a confusion between borders themselves and immigration policy. We're not actually looking to make it hard for Europeans to enter - I'd be astounded if visas were required from any current EU country. Any policy would be enforced through work permits, tenancy checks, etc. There would certainly be no reason to restrict the Common Travel Area with Ireland and the Irish (whose free movement rights are not solely derived through their EU citizenship) should be entirely unaffected.

 

[Aldaniti]

I agree. And I strongly urge everyone to vote "remain".

Not on your Nellie.

And for all those voting to leave, a little light entertainment from the EU Commission President, just for you, on this lovely Saturday afternoon:

http://youtu.be/XPgiI46FCDU

 

[anme]

Again, I think there is a confusion between borders themselves and immigration policy.

Agree. This was one of my points (although you express it more succinctly ).

We're not actually looking to make it hard for Europeans to enter

Who's "we"? I can assure you that many people do want to make it harder for Europeans to enter the UK - check out this thread for a start.

There would certainly be no reason to restrict the Common Travel Area with Ireland and the Irish (whose free movement rights are not solely derived through their EU citizenship) should be entirely unaffected.

The issue is that if you want to restrict Europeans except for the British and Irish from entering the UK, you need to distinguish between British and Irish people and other Europeans at the border. Now, I don't want to do any of this but this is the logical end point for those that do.

 

[Barn]

Who's "we"?

Good point. I guess I was using the royal we and talking about me.

However, I don't think many people actually want an ultra-restrictive visa system preventing entry into the UK, even if the shorthand references to 'people coming in', etc, can sound like that. It is common sense to want to encourage people to come on holiday and come to business meetings here. For those people for whom immigration is key to this debate, I'm pretty sure it is the settling here that is the concern rather than the entry.

An exception would be terrorists and criminals, of course. But I think this can be dealt with by data-sharing with Ireland.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, though: Ireland's Schengen exemption is actually a piggy-back on ours, and only lasts as long as the UK claims an exemption. It is not entirely clear whether this would continue on a Brexit. It would have to, though, to avoid real borders and the political nightmare thos would cause would force the UK, Ireland and the EU to reach a settlement!

 

[Howardh]

Again, I think there is a confusion between borders themselves and immigration policy. We're not actually looking to make it hard for Europeans to enter - I'd be astounded if visas were required from any current EU country. Any policy would be enforced through work permits, tenancy checks, etc. There would certainly be no reason to restrict the Common Travel Area with Ireland and the Irish (whose free movement rights are not solely derived through their EU citizenship) should be entirely unaffected.

That sounds like passing the job of immigration control to bosses, landlords and, hey, why not me who runs a volleyball side with loads of EU citizens in?

If Leave thinks I'm gonna check all the passports of all their mates who want to join my club can go and take a running....

If that's really the case, Leave should make it loud and clear that they expect landlords and the like to run checks on all their tenants, and face punishment if they don't. That should gain a few more votes??

 

[Barn]

That's already the law!

Not sure about volleyball coaches (!), but bosses have had to verify right to work for a long time and landlords more recently.

 

[anme]

That sounds like passing the job of immigration control to bosses, landlords and, hey, why not me who runs a volleyball side with loads of EU citizens in?

If Leave thinks I'm gonna check all the passports of all their mates who want to join my club can go and take a running....

If that's really the case, Leave should make it loud and clear that they expect landlords and the like to run checks on all their tenants, and face punishment if they don't. That should gain a few more votes??

Let's again be very clear. The leave campaign will not get to decide what happens if the UK votes to leave the EU. This is a referendum, not an election.

 

[miami]

I'm not convinced many Poles dream of working in warehouse in Manchester for £5/hr.

So they're taking high paying jobs and not undercutting our local workforce then?

But anyway the obvious solution would be to make an internal border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. It would be much easier to do that (at the relevant ports/airports) than imposing a physical border between NI and the Republic.

For every issue with Ireland, there is an answer that is not only clear, simple, and wrong, but it's bloody terrifying.

If we leave the EU Ireland will be a mess (not least because the EU PEACE programme)

Or are they thinking of bringing in border controls? If so, it's a long border with over 200 useable roads + countless footpaths through fields. How much would that cost, and how would they appease putting a physical border between Irishman and Irishman

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...irish-border-after-brexit-eu-northern-ireland

Britain would have to reimpose border controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic if the UK votes to leave the EU, according to the former Irish prime minister who helped shape the Good Friday accords.

Bertie Ahern, who served as EU president during his three terms as taoiseach, said a post-Brexit reinforced border would be a catastrophe for for north and south.

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So you don't think, that in order to know how corrupt and useless the EU is, that it's a rather good idea to be there and see it in action from the inside?

They don't turn up.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/85563e82-8f44-11e3-be85-00144feab7de.html#axzz4Adw48FGn

Ukip MEPs have failed to protect British business interests in Brussels, according to party defectors and an FT analysis that showed the party misses key votes and committees, while claiming hundreds of thousands of euros in pay and expenses.
Ukip’s lack of engagement with the European Parliament means the UK suffers a greater risk of damaging rules being agreed, former party MEPs say.

 

[anme]

So they're taking high paying jobs and not undercutting our local workforce then?

By "undercutting our local workforce", do you mean taking jobs at less than the minimum wage? Do you have any evidence that this is happening?

For every issue with Ireland, there is an answer that is not only clear, simple, and wrong, but it's bloody terrifying.

If we leave the EU Ireland will be a mess (not least because the EU PEACE programme)




http://www.theguardian.com/politics...irish-border-after-brexit-eu-northern-ireland

If the UK votes to leave the EU, I wonder if there will be a majority in Northern Ireland to leave the UK?

 

[miami]

Incidentally, I note that you put the word fact in parenthesis in your quote above and I ask you to clarify why you did that

He didn't, he put it in quote marks. Could you clarify how long you've been on the pinot noir?
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By "undercutting our local workforce", do you mean taking jobs at less than the minimum wage? Do you have any evidence that this is happening?

It certainly did before the eastern european countries joined the EU. Now they can demand minimum wage, and pay appropiate tax and national insurance, things are far better.

If the UK votes to leave the EU, I wonder if there will be a majority in Northern Ireland to leave the UK?

Its something that hasn't really be raised in the wider media, with talk of another Scotland referendum, but it wouldn't surprise me if there's a move for an independent Northern Ireland too. By the time 2020 comes around we could simply have "England and Wales".

 

[Busaholic]

And to turn it on its head, if the Brexiters win, will the Remain camp be just as unwilling to accept a decision as the Brexiters have been for the last forty years and constantly strive to urge a return to the fold?

I suppose the thing we all have to hope for is a very clear decision by a substantial majority and with a high turn-out. Suppose it were a knife-edge decision like the Austrian presidency and with a low turn-out, would either side be content?

Frank Field, one of the few Labour MPs to actively support Brexit, and like the others on the Right of the party, did say on 'Question Time; last Thursday that he hoped the result, whatever it was, would be accepted on all sides, but I think he was being optimistic.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

By "undercutting our local workforce", do you mean taking jobs at less than the minimum wage? Do you have any evidence that this is happening?

.. it is especially rife in the 'black economy'. 20 years ago the itinerant labourers hanging round Cricklewood got £40 a day - now they're on £30 a day. Do you seriously think the free movement of labour helps anyone but employers make more profit ?
...and besides why the hell does a country with 2.5 million people 'unemployed' need mass immigration ?

 

[EM2]

...and besides why the hell does a country with 2.5 million people 'unemployed' need mass immigration ?

Because the 2.5 million unemployed don't want, or aren't willing, to do the jobs available?

 

[Senex]

Frank Field, one of the few Labour MPs to actively support Brexit, and like the others on the Right of the party, did say on 'Question Time; last Thursday that he hoped the result, whatever it was, would be accepted on all sides, but I think he was being optimistic.

I too think he was being optimistic -- very optimistic. I think a very close result will simply lead on to endless arguments, and I also think any result that ends up trying to take any or all of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland out on the strength of English votes and against "pro" majorities in those countries will also cause massive ill feeling and protest. After all, we now have devolution to those three parts of the UK. What is that really worth if on this biggest issue of our time they are to be told that their views might be over-ridden. (Yes, I know foreign policy is reserved to Westminster, but this would appear very clearly not as a UK matter but as an England-against-the-rest matter.) What is more important to the Brexiters? To get out of Europe, or to protect the integrity of their beloved United Kingdom?

 

[Barn]

By "undercutting our local workforce", do you mean taking jobs at less than the minimum wage? Do you have any evidence that this is happening?

How about turning the minimum wage into the default wage? For many from Eastern Europe the minimum wage (and especially the new 'living' wage) is significantly higher than the equivalent at home. With so many willing to work at that rate, why pay more?

 

[anme]

How about turning the minimum wage into the default wage? For many from Eastern Europe the minimum wage (and especially the new 'living' wage) is significantly higher than the equivalent at home. With so many willing to work at that rate, why pay more?

According to Wikipedia, Luxembourg has a higher minimum wage than the UK. Why don't British people unhappy with wages in the UK just go there? (Assuming we don't vote for brexit, of course!)

 

[Howardh]

I too think he was being optimistic -- very optimistic. I think a very close result will simply lead on to endless arguments, and I also think any result that ends up trying to take any or all of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland out on the strength of English votes and against "pro" majorities in those countries will also cause massive ill feeling and protest. After all, we now have devolution to those three parts of the UK. What is that really worth if on this biggest issue of our time they are to be told that their views might be over-ridden. (Yes, I know foreign policy is reserved to Westminster, but this would appear very clearly not as a UK matter but as an England-against-the-rest matter.) What is more important to the Brexiters? To get out of Europe, or to protect the integrity of their beloved United Kingdom?

If we leave, Britain's probably in tatters. If Wales, Scotland and Norn vote to stay in, which is likely, that's 3/4 against leave.
Scotland, although they hint they won't, are bound to demand another independence referendum, especially if they feel they will lose out on a fair amount of EU income - AFAIK a lot goes to the highlands/islands (anyone??), would the UK government cover that?
This time they would probably vote to be independent.
Northern Ireland, if there is to be no border, will be first port of entry via Ireland for all those who can't get in via legal means, not to mention the loss of grants like Scotland. Could tip the balance to the reunification, leaving hundreds of thousands of UK citizens that may want rehousing in the UK.

But everything will turn out alright. The Brexiters say so, and who am I to question?

*Personally, if it's close but out,I reckon there will be recounts, appeals and counter appeals, back to the EU for more talks, a snap general election and within 18 months another referendum. Might shake Cameron to go back to the EU and do something.

 

[Flying Snail]

Belfast isn't in Eire

Yes it is.

I don't know where this misuse came from but Eire is simply the Irish language word for Ireland, not Ireland minus the bit that the Queen still rules over.
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I'm not convinced many Poles dream of working in warehouse in Manchester for £5/hr.
But anyway the obvious solution would be to make an internal border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. It would be much easier to do that (at the relevant ports/airports) than imposing a physical border between NI and the Republic.

Of course, it would mean ID being required to travel between NI and England, Scotland and Wales, but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs - the omelette being Britain's isolation from the rest of Europe and the eggs being the ability to travel freely between all parts of the UK without documentation.

In that case the eggs would be NI Unionists who will not be at all happy with the idea, never mind though as they are a very understanding lot who wouldn't dream of making a big issue out of any such policy.

Alternatively, which do the "leavers" prefer - leaving the EU and giving NI to the Republic, or staying in the EU and keeping NI as part of the UK?

Thanks, but no thanks. That political and financial black hole is of Britain's making and you can keep it.

 

[Gutfright]

My word! If Brexit wins, not only will Germany invade Poland on the 24th triggering WWIII, but the IRA will make a comeback. Scary stuff. I'd better vote Remain.

 

[Barn]

According to Wikipedia, Luxembourg has a higher minimum wage than the UK. Why don't British people unhappy with wages in the UK just go there? (Assuming we don't vote for brexit, of course!)

(A) There aren't hundreds of thousands of jobs going in Luxembourg.

(B) We don't teach Luxembourgish in school.

(C) Nobody dreams of going to Luxembourg.

But I think it was a bit of a joke question wasn't it?

 

[anme]

(C) Nobody dreams of going to Luxembourg.

Who dreams of going to Manchester?
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My word! If Brexit wins, not only will Germany invade Poland on the 24th triggering WWIII, but the IRA will make a comeback. Scary stuff. I'd better vote Remain.

The point is that no-one knows what will happen in the event of a vote to leave the EU. However, I'm sure you have given it a lot of thought. Are you in favour of the UK remain in the EEA, as in the Norwegian model? Or do you prefer some other arrangement? Please enlighten us.

No-one would vote to for brexit without a clear idea of what they wanted instead. Unless they are a complete moron, of course, which obviously isn't the case for anyone here.

 

[Flying Snail]

Who dreams of going to Manchester?

Man U fans?

 

[Barn]

Who dreams of going to Manchester?

You're just being silly now, but you've made my point for me. I personally think Manchester is fantastic (lived there for 5 years) but if you don't think it is top of people's bucket list then they must be choosing to become baristas and builders there because entry level jobs pay better in Manchester than they do in Lithuania?

 

[anme]

You're just being silly now, but you've made my point for me. I personally think Manchester is fantastic (lived there for 5 years) but if you don't think it is top of people's bucket list then they must be choosing to become baristas and builders there because entry level jobs pay better in Manchester than they do in Lithuania?

I think you're just being silly now. Have you been to Lithuania?

Perhaps they come to Manchester because they are looking for experience and adventure. The average income in the America was pretty low when Columbus set sail.

 

[Gutfright]

The point is that no-one knows what will happen in the event of a vote to leave the EU. Unless you know better, of course. I'm sure you have given it a lot of thought - maybe you can enlighten us?

I can be reasonably sure of two things: In spite of the Remainian's attempts to give the European Union credit for peace in Europe, WWIII is not going to break out as a direct result of Brexit; and Brexit will not inevitably lead to the return of the Troubles in Northern Ireland.

 

[Barn]

The average income in the America was pretty low when Columbus set sail.

Ooohhhh-kaaaay then.

Whether it's the wage differential or the relative boredom of their home countries (if that's what you're suggesting) the fact that there are lots and lots and lots of people very happy to work for minimum wage means that there is no real incentive to pay above the minimum, meaning that the minimum wage (originally designed to avoid outright exploitation) is now an acceptable default wage for an entry-level job.

 

[Gutfright]

Who dreams of going to Manchester?.

This is not relevant to anything, but back in my student days I was good friends with a French guy who was a Smiths superfan, whose life's ambition was to live in Manchester.

He was living in Edinburgh at the time and working in a coffee shop, so I'm not exactly sure what was stopping him.

 

[anme]

I can be reasonably sure of two things: In spite of the Remainian's attempts to give the European Union credit for peace in Europe, WWIII is not going to break out as a direct result of Brexit; and Brexit will not inevitably lead to the return of the Troubles in Northern Ireland.

"Remainian's" is both in interesting use of an apostrophe by a (presumably) native English speaker. Are you implying that the similarity with the word "Romanian" makes it an insult? If so, could you explain why you think it's an insult?

Also please tell us what you want to see after a vote to leave the EU. Do you want to remain in the EEA? Do you want to throw out EU citizens living in the UK and sever all ties with Europe? What do you want? These are critical questions, and you *must* have thought about them.
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the relative boredom of their home countries (if that's what you're suggesting)

No! I'm not suggesting that anyone's home country is boring (even England). I'm suggesting that the world is bigger than any single country, and that anyone with curiosity and/or a sense of adventure will want to experience more than just the geographical area (e.g. the country) in which they were born.