Should We Leave the EU?

[Senex]

So Brexit is wheeling out statements from Sir James Dyson again to challenge the 1,000+ industrialists who have written to the Times. But why should anyone take seriously someone who has moved his production centre out of the United Kingdom? Don't we need productive industry as well as inventors here?

 

[anme]

So Brexit is wheeling out statements from Sir James Dyson again to challenge the 1,000+ industrialists who have written to the Times. But why should anyone take seriously someone who has moved his production centre out of the United Kingdom? Don't we need productive industry as well as inventors here?

The bias of the BBC in favour of Brexit is staggering. The news report I just heard gave less weight to the letter from 1000+ industrialists in favour of remaining compared to the lone Dyson in favour of leaving.

 

[jon0844]

Dyson 'left' years ago.

Sent from my PLK-L01 using Tapatalk

 

[yorksrob]

Would a Brexit solve the price of high rents in the London area? Builders want also earn a living; so why built cheap houses. For the price of 1 parkingspace you can buy a house in the Netherlands. It also seems that your government gave less money to the healthdepartment.

Well, we would have the option of limiting house purchasing to longer term residents and correct some of the market distortions created by large in flows of foreign capital buying up properties as 'investment'.

The alternative would be to get a treaty change, although this might prove difficult. It's the sort of thing Mr Cameron could have asked for in his renegotiations, however, as such problems don't affect his class, it probably wouldn't have occurred to him.

If we do have a remain vote, I hope it's very close. Any 'ringing endorsement' of EU membership would just give them carte Blanche to trample all over more member states just like Greece.

 

[Senex]

The bias of the BBC in favour of Brexit is staggering. The news report I just heard gave less weight to the letter from 1000+ industrialists in favour of remaining compared to the lone Dyson in favour of leaving.

I'm just listening to John Humphreys going really hard at David Cameron on immigration, which is absolutely fair enough -- but I do wish someone had tackled the Brexit people as toughly both on that issue and on exactly what they see following from on "Out" decision. They do seem to have faced softer BBC interviewing that has always stopped before moving in for the kill.
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Dyson 'left' years ago.

Sent from my PLK-L01 using Tapatalk

Indeed -- so why is he really relevant to all this at all?

 

[anme]

Well, we would have the option of limiting house purchasing to longer term residents and correct some of the market distortions created by large in flows of foreign capital buying up properties as 'investment'.

If you seriously think any British government is going to do this, you're going to be very disappointed. Imagine Johnson and Gove's faces on Friday morning if they win. Then imagine those faces, every day, for the rest of your lives. And remember that you did this to yourself.

In any case, a British government is entirely free within the EU, to impose taxes on property ownership on more or less any grounds it likes - certainly non-resident foreign investers could be targetted. Why haven't they done this? Because British people are so stupid that they LOVE housing bubbles!

If we do have a remain vote, I hope it's very close. Any 'ringing endorsement' of EU membership would just give them carte Blanche to trample all over more member states just like Greece.

Have you got any idea how the EU actually works?

 

[yorksrob]

If you seriously think any British government is going to do this, you're going to be very disappointed. Imagine Johnson and Gove's faces on Friday morning if they win. Then imagine those faces, every day, for the rest of your lives. And remember that you did this to yourself.

In any case, a British government is entirely free within the EU, to impose taxes on property ownership on more or less any grounds it likes - certainly non-resident foreign investers could be targetted. Why haven't they done this? Because British people are so stupid that they LOVE housing bubbles!



Have you got any idea how the EU actually works?

The British people will cotton on eventually. And if its so easy to target foreign investors through property taxation, why didn't Denmark opt for this method, rather than embarking on a treaty opt out ?

 

[zuriblue]

Apparently Yvette Cooper has been receiving death threats to her kids and grandkids over her support for Remain.

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-22/yvette-cooper-receives-death-threats-over-eu-stance/

Lovely people.

 

[anme]

The British people will cotton on eventually. And if its so easy to target foreign investors through property taxation, why didn't Denmark opt for this method, rather than embarking on a treaty opt out ?

You tell me. Presumably you've researched this in detail as it seems to be an important point for you.

Anyway I'm not a racist so I don't want to target "foreigners". I'm often a foreigner myself. I would look at making property purchase for investment rather than accommodation less attractive. There are lots of ways to do this - e.g. taxing a proportion of the property value each year for empty houses or flats, removing buy to let tax breaks, improved conditions for tenants (I wonder if people understand how terrible conditions are for tenants in the UK compared to elsewhere in Europe), etc. But inside or outside the EU, this won't happen in the UK as British people are so moronic that they LOVE housing bubbles. That's democracy for you.

 

[Steveman]

Apparently Yvette Cooper has been receiving death threats to her kids and grandkids over her support for Remain.

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-22/yvette-cooper-receives-death-threats-over-eu-stance/

Lovely people.

Very sad, but life can be like that when you're in the public eye for thousands of people.

Nigel Farage has had hundred and hundreds of death threats to him and his family, but he's on the wrong side so he'll just have to lump it.

 

[Harbornite]

Have you got any idea how the EU actually works?

Probably not, brexiters seem to use soundbites without actually trying to understand what's going on.

 

[miami]

Well, we would have the option of limiting house purchasing to longer term residents and correct some of the market distortions created by large in flows of foreign capital buying up properties as 'investment'.

We would wouldn't we. We could ban those pesky Russians from buying up properties, not to mention the overseas trusts in Panama and the Caymen islands from owning properties.

Oh wait, we could do that now. But we don't.

If we do have a remain vote, I hope it's very close. Any 'ringing endorsement' of EU membership would just give them carte Blanche to trample all over more member states just like Greece.

Greece didn't have to accept the bailout, or the conditions. It could have simply Zimbarbwed itself.

 

[anme]

So tragically it looks like leave might well win. This question is now addressed to everyone - not just leavers who have not bothered to answer it: what should we aim for? A Norway-style arrangement? Switzerland? Canada? Something else?

My answer: go for the Norwegian model. OK, it's frankly stupid - you have to obey all the rules without getting much say in their writing, but it seems to appeal to the kind of person who has no idea how the EU or their own government works (Norwegian politicians hate their arrangement because it substantially reduces their power compared to being in the EU!). However - most importantly it preserves the fundamental freedoms we now enjoy - the free movement of people (you and I are people), free movement of goods (so we can trade), free movement of capital (so we can invest and receive investment), and the free movement of services (so we can buy and sell intangibles).

Let's defy the leave campaign and actually think about this!

 

[zuriblue]

Very sad, but life can be like that when you're in the public eye for thousands of people.

Nigel Farage has had hundred and hundreds of death threats to him and his family, but he's on the wrong side so he'll just have to lump it.

Also a leave supporter has been arrested in Carlisle after a 78 year old Remain supporter was punched in the face.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-06-20/man-arrested-after-assault-over-eu-referendum/

Was he in the public eye as well?

The leave side do seem to have more than their fair share of knuckledraggers, I know of a few remain people who've been threatened or assaulted. One guy I know was running a leave stall in London and a kipper threatened to set it on fire if he didn't pack up.

 

[DarloRich]

Nigel Farage has had hundred and hundreds of death threats to him and his family, but he's on the wrong side so he'll just have to lump it.

Not at all. But then that wont help the old victim/bias complex will it The threats to Mr Farage seem to be widely reported in the Mail and Telegraph amoungst others and are unacceptable.

 

[miami]

Apparently Yvette Cooper has been receiving death threats to her kids and grandkids over her support for Remain.

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-22/yvette-cooper-receives-death-threats-over-eu-stance/

Lovely people.

Yes, nice and classy, especially after Thursday.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/20/brexi...ling-muslim-politician-a-mussie-prck-5955374/

Sajjad Karim, a Tory MEP for North West England, said he feared for his family’s safety after getting abusive messages on social media.

Mr Karim, a British Pakistani who supports Remain in the upcoming EU referendum, said he would no longer take part in any debates on the subject because he is so worried about increasing tensions.

He accused senior Leave campaigners of stirring up hatred and called for tighter security for politicians who need it.
....
Lancashire-born Mr Karim, an MEP of 12 years, said that after right-wing news site Breitbart posted about the exchange he received a barrage of hateful messages and threats.

He said: ‘We have had a situation in the past where we had quite a number, 30 or so, far-right extremists turn up outside my home address carrying placards.

‘They made a video of the whole thing and put my address on the internet, encouraging others to do what they had done.

‘Our safety at that address was compromised and we no longer live there. So yes, the police are taking this very seriously indeed.’

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You tell me. Presumably you've researched this in detail as it seems to be an important point for you.

Anyway I'm not a racist so I don't want to target "foreigners". I'm often a foreigner myself. I would look at making property purchase for investment rather than accommodation less attractive. There are lots of ways to do this - e.g. taxing a proportion of the property value each year for empty houses or flats, removing buy to let tax breaks, improved conditions for tenants (I wonder if people understand how terrible conditions are for tenants in the UK compared to elsewhere in Europe), etc. But inside or outside the EU, this won't happen in the UK as British people are so moronic that they LOVE housing bubbles. That's democracy for you.

So say a 3% stamp duty increase for 2nd home ownership? It was part of the "help the rich" budget that the George Osborne passed earlier this year (the one that robbed from the disabled and gave to the millionaires. With a 38% mandate. Democracy yeay!)
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So tragically it looks like leave might well win. This question is now addressed to everyone - not just leavers who have not bothered to answer it: what should we aim for? A Norway-style arrangement? Switzerland? Canada? Something else?

My answer: go for the Norwegian model. OK, it's frankly stupid - you have to obey all the rules without getting much say in their writing, but it seems to appeal to the kind of person who has no idea how the EU or their own government works (Norwegian politicians hate their arrangement because it substantially reduces their power compared to being in the EU!). However - most importantly it preserves the fundamental freedoms we now enjoy - the free movement of people (you and I are people), free movement of goods (so we can trade), free movement of capital (so we can invest and receive investment), and the free movement of services (so we can buy and sell intangibles).

Let's defy the leave campaign and actually think about this!

I suspect that will be the model. We'll get a better deal than Norway though. As part of the deal we'll get to keep a schengen optout though (as will Ireland), we'll keep Le Touquet, and we might get some opt out along the lines of "the UK won't have to extend free movement to new EU states for the next X years".

The fact we have a better-than-this deal already is irrelevant.

 

[Antman]

Apparently Yvette Cooper has been receiving death threats to her kids and grandkids over her support for Remain.

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-22/yvette-cooper-receives-death-threats-over-eu-stance/

Lovely people.

Absolutely disgusting and I'm sure anybody connected with Brexit will say likewise. Weren't trying to score points were you?:roll:
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Very sad, but life can be like that when you're in the public eye for thousands of people.

Nigel Farage has had hundred and hundreds of death threats to him and his family, but he's on the wrong side so he'll just have to lump it.

Oh yes but I'm sure Nigel has only himself to blame

 

[anme]

I suspect that will be the model. We'll get a better deal than Norway though. As part of the deal we'll get to keep a schengen optout though (as will Ireland), we'll keep Le Touquet, and we might get some opt out along the lines of "the UK won't have to extend free movement to new EU states for the next X years".

I think this would be the best outcome for everyone. Boris, by the way, has ruled it out, but this is a referendum not an election so that doesn't really matter.

Both sides would need to be able to present a deal as a victory, and the Norwegian model allows this. The EU will be the actual winner by any logical analysis (although everyone is really a loser in this sad game), but even though it's stupid, the Norwegian model seems to appeal to a certain type of not-too-worried-about-the-facts nationalist and maybe it will satisfy the British side too.

The danger is that the UK rejects this model and decides to sail off into the mid-Atlantic. Then we really are all *****ed.

The fact we have a better-than-this deal already is irrelevant.

Indeed. But neither the leave campaign, nor patriotism, nor the Norwegian model are about logic or facts, which is why they go together quite well.

(To be clear, my preferences are:
1. Remain in the EU.
2. Norwegian model or similar.
3. Something else.

1 is much much better than 2, but 2 is much much better than 3.)

 

[Howardh]

At least we found a future PM last night. Only caught the debate after the start, and when that Scots woman started (Ruth Davisson) I thought she nailed it. But you can't cote for the SNP in England.

Oh, hang on, she's the leader of the Scottish Tories, I found out when the ticker came on! Wasted in Scotland, get into Parliament and shake the darned thing up (only takes a by-election!).

Looked at the odds for Tory Next PM and she isn't even on a list of 50. Might be worth a punt, and I don't bet....!!
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I think this would be the best outcome for everyone. Boris, by the way, has ruled it out, but this is a referendum not an election so that doesn't really matter.

Both sides would need to be able to present a deal as a victory, and the Norwegian model allows this. The EU will be the actual winner by any logical analysis (although everyone is really a loser in this sad game), but even though it's stupid, the Norwegian model seems to appeal to a certain type of not-too-worried-about-the-facts nationalist and maybe it will satisfy the British side too.

The danger is that the UK rejects this model and decides to sail off into the mid-Atlantic. Then we really are all *****ed.



Indeed. But neither patriotism nor the Norwegian model are about logic or facts, which is why they go together quite well.

(To be clear, my preferences are:
1. Remain in the EU.
2. Norwegian model or similar.
3. Something else.

1 is much much better than 2, but 2 is much much better than 3.)

Cameron's in a very interesting place. Despite what he says now, the chances are - if he stays on - he will try to get the best deals which mean the UK stays in a Virtual EU, or he could simply leave on Friday and think "to hell with it, give Brexit all the rope they need to ruin the country" and go somewhere well out of the way and enjoy the schaudenfreude.
I think I'd be temped to do the second option.

 

[Senex]

I suspect that will be the model. We'll get a better deal than Norway though. As part of the deal we'll get to keep a schengen optout though (as will Ireland), we'll keep Le Touquet, and we might get some opt out along the lines of "the UK won't have to extend free movement to new EU states for the next X years".

The fact we have a better-than-this deal already is irrelevant.

A nice summary, though I suspect a little on the optimistic side.

But then it's all about sovereignty and numbers of immigrants, isn't it, even though we never get to hear whose sovereignty, exactly what number of immigrants, and which ones (other than that they won't be Polish plumbers or waitresses any more).
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.... or he could simply leave on Friday and think "to hell with it, give Brexit all the rope they need to ruin the country" and go somewhere well out of the way and enjoy the schaudenfreude.
I think I'd be temped to do the second option.

Me too. I suppose one shouldn't really admit to it, but I do rather enjoy Schadenfreude!

 

[EM2]

Me too. I suppose one shouldn't really admit to it, but I do rather enjoy Schadenfreude!

For a brief moment, I was thinking 'I actually hope that Leave win, and when it all goes base-over-apex, we can all say 'Right, so how are you going to fix this?'', but then realised that when it does go base-over-apex, it's going to hit me as well.

 

[anme]

A nice summary, though I suspect a little on the optimistic side.

But then it's all about sovereignty and numbers of immigrants, isn't it, even though we never get to hear whose sovereignty, exactly what number of immigrants, and which ones (other than that they won't be Polish plumbers or waitresses any more).

You're looking at it from the logical point of view.

However, when your world view is based on fear and/or ignorance, facts and logic aren't so relevant. The Norwegian model doesn't really offer much to the the xenophobes, opportunitists and utopians (*) of the leave side, but in their minds it sticks two fingers up to Brussels and makes them think they have a special (**) arrangement, so it may well get widespread support (and presumably the "remain" voters will also favour it). This is especially true if the economy takes a turn for the worse after a leave vote - this seems very likely because whatever your long terms views on the EU, leaving will cause a huge amount of uncertainty which will hit confidence and investment - and suddenly a quick resolution and access to the single market will start to look very attractive.

(*) let's be fair - there are some utopians on the leave side, who see some very real problems in the UK (such as access to housing) and want to solve them. Of course, these problems aren't actually caused by EU membership on the whole, but changing the status quo in whatever way is available is attractive to these people.

(**) actually they do get a "special" arrangement, but not in a positive sense.

 

[Gutfright]

Anyway I'm not a racist so I don't want to target "foreigners".

People do have valid concerns about the effect of immigration on housing, infrastructure, wages (interestingly, the remain camp's argument was "yes, immigration does depress wages, but not by as much as Leave are claiming" in the debate yesterday) etc. To dismiss these concerns as just being racism is supremely arrogant.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Absolutely disgusting and I'm sure anybody connected with Brexit will say likewise. Weren't trying to score points were you?:roll:

And lo, we now have the latest Brexit catch-all argument that doesn't actually mean anything: any inconvenient truth they don't want you talking about is "scoring points".

 

[EM2]

I think it's all got a bit much for Michael Gove:
http://www.lbc.co.uk/gove-compares-pro-eu-experts-to-nazis-132633

"I think the key thing here is to interrogate the assumptions that are made and to ask if these arguments are good.

"We have to be careful about historical comparisons, but Albert Einstein during the 1930s was denounced by the German authorities for being wrong and his theories were denounced, and one of the reasons of course he was denounced was because he was Jewish.

"They got 100 German scientists in the pay of the government to say that he was wrong and Einstein said: 'Look, if I was wrong, one would have been enough.''

"The truth is that if you look at the quality of the analysis, if you look at the facts on the ground, you can come to an appropriate conclusion.

"And the appropriate conclusion, I think, all of us can come to is that with growth rates so low in Europe, with so many unemployed and with the nature of the single currency so damaging, freeing ourselves from that project can only strengthen our economy."

 

[TheKnightWho]

I think it's all got a bit much for Michael Gove:
http://www.lbc.co.uk/gove-compares-pro-eu-experts-to-nazis-132633

The fact that Gove was ever in education is terrifying, really, given he seems totally ignorant of how any of it works.

 

[Gutfright]

And lo, we now have the latest Brexit catch-all argument that doesn't actually mean anything: any inconvenient truth they don't want you talking about is "scoring points".

I think it's wrong to make sweeping generalisations about entire groups of people.

 

[Harbornite]

I think it's wrong to make sweeping generalisations about entire groups of people.

Like some Brexiters enjoy doing with EU immigrants...

 

[Groningen]

Has nobody made a prediction of the referendum? I think it is going to be close. I wanted to offer a free dayticket of traintravel in the Netherlands, but than you have to collect it in Groningen. I say: Remain 53, Brexit 47 %.

 

[anme]

People do have valid concerns about the effect of immigration on housing, infrastructure, wages (interestingly, the remain camp's argument was "yes, immigration does depress wages, but not by as much as Leave are claiming" in the debate yesterday) etc. To dismiss these concerns as just being racism is supremely arrogant.

Nice picture. Can you explain what was logically wrong with the sentence "Anyway I'm not a racist so I don't want to target "foreigners"." (I'd ask you to substitute "discriminate against" for "target" - the meaning is the same but the language is clearer). Anyway, if you ignored the jerking of your knee you will have noticed that I actually proposed some solutions regarding housing. What did you think of those?

Also, this sudden concern about working class wages from the right seems somewhat strange. I thought low wages were good for our competitiveness? I thought that "getting on your bike" to find work was a good thing?