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Should We Leave the EU?

Do you believe the UK should stay in or leave the EU?

  • Stay in the EU

    Votes: 229 61.4%
  • Leave the EU

    Votes: 120 32.2%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 24 6.4%

  • Total voters
    373
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Howardh

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I'm saying, and the statistics you provided back this up, that the UK accepts the second most immigrants of any EU country.

Or, to put it another way. We are the second hottest nightclub in town.

You can argue that Lithuania and Romania are just as desirable to immigrants if you want, and hope nobody notices the sophistry used to arrive at that conclusion, but I for one am not buying it.

And how many of us migrate from the UK annually to work or retire? And how many of our immigrants return home/move elsewhere after they've trained, done their courses etc?

And on Brexit, how many immigrants will be denied entry? You have the figures, not me, so please provide.

BTW I actually SUPPORT controlled immigration. It's just that Brexit's plans is bobbins. We either have to control ALL the borders, or accept there can't be control, and try to put off immigrants who don't contribute by shelving benefits/welfare.

Remain's plan.
 
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Gutfright

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Why have you let in anyone at all if you don't have bouncers on duty?
The only ones that are allowed in to our nightclub are the members, everyone else has to be vetted.

But let's say you and your mates are in an OK nightclub. It's not brilliant but the music is pretty good, everybody's getting on and there's been no trouble or fighting.
Then one of your mates says 'This is rubbish, let's go somewhere else'. He can't remember exactly where it is, but insists it'll be brilliant.
So you leave and start wandering, looking for this brilliant club. After a couple of hours, you can't find it, so you go back to the other club, but now they won't let you back in.
And now it's 1am, and you're all in the kebab shop, arguing about whose fault it is that your good night out turned crap.

Or let's say you're at this OK club with your mates. They say "Let's go to this other club that's just reopened". You're terrified of this other club because you've been told it's a total dive, full of Chavs and if you go there then you and your family will end up broke on the streets selling handjobs for crack.

However your mates take you along and do you know what? It's actually quite good there. Not half as scary as you thought it would be.
 

anme

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1,777
I'm saying, and the statistics you provided back this up, that the UK accepts the second most immigrants of any EU country.

Or, to put it another way. We are the second hottest nightclub in town.

You can argue that Lithuania and Romania are just as desirable to immigrants if you want, and hope nobody notices the sophistry used to arrive at that conclusion, but I for one am not buying it.

Please let's forget about the night club analogy. You are arguing that absolute numbers are more important than numbers per head of population. That's an argument that is obviously (forgive the word) moronic.

Sometimes division is important. Would you rather have a job paying 10000 Euros per month or 50000 Euros per year? Your argument above is that 50000 Euros per year is better (accepting for a moment the Brexiter position that less immigration is better).
 

Howardh

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Messages
9,202
Or let's say you're at this OK club with your mates. They say "Let's go to this other club that's just reopened". You're terrified of this other club because you've been told it's a total dive, full of Chavs and if you go there then you and your family will end up broke on the streets selling handjobs for crack.

However your mates take you along and do you know what? It's actually quite good there. Not half as scary as you thought it would be.

But it's a guess. A hope. A stab in the dark. Could go one way or the other. Why not let other customers try the new venue first, and then see what they say? I reckon that would be more than sensible. Especially if once you leave your chosen venue that you're comfortable with (although it could do with a refurb) you know you can't get back in.
 

Gutfright

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Messages
639
Please let's forget about the night club analogy. You are arguing that absolute numbers are more important than numbers per head of population. That's an argument that is obviously (forgive the word) moronic.

Sometimes division is important. Would you rather have a job paying 10000 Euros per month or 50000 Euros per year? Your argument above is that 50000 Euros per year is better (accepting for a moment the Brexiter position that less immigration is better).

Ok, let's use an extremely exaggerated example to show how flawed your logic is.

Let's say that next year 100 million foreigns move to the UK, pushing our population to about 160 million.

Should we then accept a further 8 million the following year, as that would 'only' be a 5% increase?


But it's a guess. A hope. A stab in the dark. Could go one way or the other. Why not let other customers try the new venue first, and then see what they say? I reckon that would be more than sensible. Especially if once you leave your chosen venue that you're comfortable with (although it could do with a refurb) you know you can't get back in.

I'm not sure what you're proposing here. Brexit for half of the country so we can see what it looks like?
 
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anme

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Joined
8 Aug 2013
Messages
1,777
Ok, let's use an extremely exaggerated example to show how flawed your logic is.

Let's say that next year 100 million foreigns move to the UK, pushing our population to about 160 million.

Should we then accept a further 8 million the following year, as that would 'only' be a 5% increase?

It certainly is a flawed example. Let's be absolutely clear what you are saying. You are saying that 100 people (*) arriving in a village of population 50 would have less impact than 1000 people arriving in a city of one million. Correct?

It's hard to believe we're having this conversation. Can I ask, and please don't be insulted, but are you aware of enough mathematics to understand the concept of division?

(*) note my use of the word people, rather than "foreigns".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm not sure what you're proposing here. Brexit for half of the country so we can see what it looks like?

That's actually not a bad idea. I know which half I want to be in.

PS you're going to be well down our priority list for a trade deal.
 

EM2

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Or let's say you're at this OK club with your mates. They say "Let's go to this other club that's just reopened". You're terrified of this other club because you've been told it's a total dive, full of Chavs and if you go there then you and your family will end up broke on the streets selling handjobs for crack.

However your mates take you along and do you know what? It's actually quite good there. Not half as scary as you thought it would be.
But you and they don't *know*. At the OK nightclub, you become regulars, you get to know the DJ and the bar staff, you can try and get them to change the playlist a bit, put on some drinks promotions, give you a discount on your admission (or a few free beers).
If you don't go there, you can't do any of that, and have to hope that the new refurbished club is one that you like.
 

Antman

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3 May 2013
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6,840
Yes, nice and classy, especially after Thursday.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/20/brexi...ling-muslim-politician-a-mussie-prck-5955374/

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So say a 3% stamp duty increase for 2nd home ownership? It was part of the "help the rich" budget that the George Osborne passed earlier this year (the one that robbed from the disabled and gave to the millionaires. With a 38% mandate. Democracy yeay!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I suspect that will be the model. We'll get a better deal than Norway though. As part of the deal we'll get to keep a schengen optout though (as will Ireland), we'll keep Le Touquet, and we might get some opt out along the lines of "the UK won't have to extend free movement to new EU states for the next X years".

The fact we have a better-than-this deal already is irrelevant.

Nigel Farage gets that sort of abuse all the time, are you equally concerned about that?
 

anme

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1,777
Nigel Farage gets that sort of abuse all the time, are you equally concerned about that?

The abuse sent to Yvette Copper was on Twitter. Presumably some of the abuse sent to Farage is on Twitter too, or at least some other public platform.

Could you send us some links?

Not doubting what you say, of course, but it's useful for people here to understand the context.
 

Gutfright

Member
Joined
22 Jan 2016
Messages
639
It certainly is a flawed example. Let's be absolutely clear what you are saying. You are saying that 100 people (*) arriving in a village of population 50 would have less impact than 1000 people arriving in a city of one million. Correct?

It's hard to believe we're having this conversation. Can I ask, and please don't be insulted, but are you aware of enough mathematics to understand the concept of division?

(*) note my use of the word people, rather than "foreigns".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That's actually not a bad idea. I know which half I want to be in.

PS you're going to be well down our priority list for a trade deal.

Let's not lose sight of the reasons we're talking about numbers in the first place.

You claimed the UK was not a popular destination for immigrants. You called the idea "laughable".

The UK is an incredibly popular destination for Johnny Foreigner. We accept the second highest number of immigrants in Europe.
 

anme

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Messages
1,777
Let's not lose sight of the reasons we're talking about numbers in the first place.

You claimed the UK was not a popular destination for immigrants. You called the idea "laughable".

The UK is an incredibly popular destination for Johnny Foreigner. We accept the second highest number of immigrants in Europe.

Yep, the idea is laughable. Even as the second largest country in the EU by population, Britain receives only the tenth largest number of immigrants per person.

Ha ha ha.

What do you think of my support for your idea of dividing the UK in two, with one half staying in the EU and one half leaving? The more I think about this, the more I think you've hit upon the solution for our problems. I'm reconsidering my opinion of Brexiters' intellects!
 
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philabos

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19 May 2010
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As an American, I shall keep my opinion to myself.
I cannot help but note, I can never remember a time when so much news focus has been on the UK. Hardly a day has gone by without multiple news and opinion pieces. Now front page everywhere.
Whatever your decision, a momentous occasion.
 

Howardh

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Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
9,202
Ok, let's use an extremely exaggerated example to show how flawed your logic is.

Let's say that next year 100 million foreigns move to the UK, pushing our population to about 160 million.

Should we then accept a further 8 million the following year, as that would 'only' be a 5% increase?




I'm not sure what you're proposing here. Brexit for half of the country so we can see what it looks like?
No, I'm clearly suggesting another country goes and tries your club first. Split the country? Yes, that's very possible. Scotland will go, Norn might, we could lose GiB to the Spanish and the Channel Isles have been muttering. So you can go go your new club but lose half your mates. Not much fun if you only have one mate ;)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As an American, I shall keep my opinion to myself.
I cannot help but note, I can never remember a time when so much news focus has been on the UK. Hardly a day has gone by without multiple news and opinion pieces. Now front page everywhere.
Whatever your decision, a momentous occasion.

You mean the Beckham's aren't front page? They'll be gutted!
 
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TheKnightWho

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17 Oct 2012
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Oxford
A few on here have said they're going to emigrate, I wonder if they'd be saying it if Leave had a good chance of winning, just tosh that's all.

No Remainers seemingly want to agree with Alan Sugar, strange that.

Brain drain is a real problem if we leave. Not that you'd admit it.
 

Gutfright

Member
Joined
22 Jan 2016
Messages
639
Yep, the idea is laughable. Even as the second largest country in the EU by population, Britain receives only the tenth largest number of immigrants per person.

Ha ha ha.

What do you think of my support for your idea of dividing the UK in two, with one half staying in the EU and one half leaving? The more I think about this, the more I think you've hit upon the solution for our problems. I'm reconsidering my opinion of Brexiters' intellects!

Let's try a couple of questions to prove you know how basic maths works, because I'm not convinced you do.

Q1) which is the second highest number in this list?

884.9, 632.0, 339.9, 305.5, 277.6

Q2) 1,000 guests choose to go to Hotel A, whereas only 100 guests go to hotel B. Which hotel did more guests visit?

A - Hotel A
B - Hotel B
C - It depends on how many staff work at each hotel. If Hotel A had a staff of 50 people and Hotel B had a staff of 4, then Hotel A would have 20 guests per staff member and Hotel B would have 25 guests per staff member. Clearly that would prove that more guests visited Hotel B.

Q3) Sports team A has a stadium capacity of 80,000 and an average attendance of 75,000. Sports team B has a stadium capacity of 40,000 and an average attendance of 20,000. Which team can increase their average attendance by 10% without breaking the stadium capacity?

A - Sports team A, because they have a bigger attendance.
B - Sports team B
 

Howardh

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Messages
9,202
Brain drain is a real problem if we leave. Not that you'd admit it.
I had thought of that...if Brexit fails and we can't return to the EU; surely many (like the teachers are doing already, and I wouldn't be surprised if many nurses/doctors haven't already gone) with good qualifications and skills will emigrate leaving us begging for migrants to fill their places and having to pay them more?

Perhaps Brexit should shut the borders to keep people with skills in?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Q3) Sports team A has a stadium capacity of 80,000 and an average attendance of 75,000. Sports team B has a stadium capacity of 40,000 and an average attendance of 20,000. Which team can increase their average attendance by 10% without breaking the stadium capacity?

A - Sports team A, because they have a bigger attendance.
B - Sports team B

Well B can't, it has 20,000 official attendance but the stadium's full as 20,000 more got in through the open and unmanned gates round the back.
 

miami

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Nigel Farage gets that sort of abuse all the time, are you equally concerned about that?

I haven't seen any example of abuse towards Farage. I was very concerned with the attempt on Trump's life though - a symptom of a divided broken society driven by hate. I prefer politics as compromise.
 

EM2

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This has been posted by a friend of mine and is shared with his permission. I'm not going to say exactly what he does, but suffice to say, it affects pretty much all of us, every single day.

So let me see if can make this a little more real. My job is international. I talk. I rant. I blog. I listen. The business we conduct changes things. Because we change lives. Not just of corporations and "business" - but public services, customer services and economic growth. We do it with technology. But we affect and evolve people, process and culture all over the world. It’s why I do what I do.
-----------
During the first week of June I spent time with some of the most published and frankly well renowned consultants and technologists in Europe. I listened. For a living they drive international business and customer imperatives. They focus primarily on economics, sustainment and growth.
Bottom line?
UK was the butt of every joke, comment and subtle jibe related to consumer and public issues. All due to the socioeconomic and business impacts of 'Brexit.' (randomly when one of the delegates said 'Brexit' out loud in a presentation, it coincided with a fire alarm - I can tell you that ‘Brexit’ became the go-to laughing-stock from then onwards). This was from more than 40 senior consultants from Europe, Middle East and Africa (EMEA). The CEO-level thought leaders. Commercial experts. They represent significant history and experience in almost every industry.
Separately during that week, I also helped host a customer dinner with European CEO's and CISO's (leaders who run everything from small critical organisations through to global governments including civil and social leaders). As a nation we were ridiculed and in one case labelled us as "a ridiculous political caricature akin to 'Spitting Image'" - They were laughing at us in cahoots with key global independent economists from far reaching lands across the globe.
Is this who we are now?
Because that week contained the most embarrassing days for me when faced with public and industry leaders. Senior people in EMEA businesses, across commercial, politics and public services within EU and global economics. To paraphrase one point that was handed to me over dinner:
"You are portraying yourselves no better than Trump supporters....and as if it were the 1980s"
This aligns with what I’m told daily by European CEO/CISOs. It also comes from my teams (who touch the top 100-200 companies in Europe and EMEA) who can relay verbatim the exact same view point, handed to them by their local press, from interviews they give and by our customers.
------------
We look insane for considering an exit from the EU. Especially when so many “Leave” arguments are tantamount to nothing more than nationalism. To be clear I'm not relaying my opinion. Nor am I referencing media, or propaganda. This is not slurred figures or ill-conceived and misconstrued interpretations of facts. I am not "re-ing" someone else's re-posts or re-tweets.
This is real life boys and girls and its terrifying. I see a true and actual snapshot of how we are viewed by EMEA and US leaders - and it is damning! 'Brexit' and primarily our conduct during this referendum, resonates so negatively with our trade partners, customers and industry experts, that already we have business deals being placed on hold. Business that contributes highly to our gross domestic product. This is across all markets from beyond our borders. All until the UK becomes "safer to do business with again. "
That’s “safer" by the way. NOT safe.
Because the impact of our campaigns in fiction and slander is so prolific and internationally visible that we are being told we are a trading and business risk to Europe (and world wide). We are now an uncertainty, a dangerous bet to trade on or build relations with. Everyone is looking in - with microscopic focus - at our referendum debacle. I can tell you right now that we’ve broken the trust. To highlight, here are a few of the lighter things I heard from across Europe, Middle East and Africa:
"Unanimously you are a joke in and to Europe both socially and in the realm of business economics...not to mention the rest of the world".
"You look ridiculous to everyone to every industry, across every political landscape"
"From education and healthcare, through to transportation and manufacturing, through to retail, hospitality, government services, the U.K. can't be and aren't trusted right now"
-------------
We are a joke...
A bad one.
And all due to "Brexit" - which even now has damned the concept of a Kingdom United. It has taken our standing as a world leader in international markets and trashed it. Perceptions which are rife include everything from "incompetence" through to words such as; bigotry, ignorance, arrogance, innocence, naivety and flat out racism
These are the words of global businesses and country leaders responsible for human beings. As I commute Europe reading and listening, they are the words from services providers who track from healthcare all the way to international banks. There’s one common theme. Everyone over the waters are staring at us in disbelief.
So whilst our own campaigners, government and pro-Leavers squabble for position and power amongst their PR nonsense (in the face some of seriously false fabricated fiction), the world watches on as our emotions, demographics and prejudices are preyed upon, to drive their outcome. It has become a game of sensational exploitation, designed to drive emotive outcry. Personally these are the worst set of "facts" in my lifetime to ever be placed in front of me about such a critical decision. By BOTH sides I might add. Consequently, I'm left hearing international commentary about, “what have you done?”. The campaigns are referred to as nothing more than a bunch of peddled nonsense and that the 'facts' are no more credible than the early Wild West peddlers of 'Amazing, Life-Changing Tonics, to cure all ills."
In short, I've never been more embarrassed of my home during all my time working and leading in international business. Never more disappointed in how we conduct ourselves on a global stage. Because all of this is fallacy which prays upon weakness, fears, hopes, dreams - and bigotry. We created campaigns which helped those so inclined, to go forward and misconstrue what it means to be 'independent' and to be “British.” And that is wrong.
----------------
‪#‎IN‬ is the only logical next step towards a global community. A “something” we will actually never see in our generation. Or perhaps even beyond our children after us. Therefore, it is our children's children who will have to strive to unite, in the face of overwhelming odds from; 'terror in the name of religion' to 'environmental unity to sustain our very species.' Play that through for a moment to our immediate obligations such as equality, safety, human rights, international cooperation. How can ‪#‎OUT‬ be a decision in the face of these needs?
This opinion here – and it is mine and I hold to it - represents my ideals.
In earnest I believe global unity is the core to our evolution and our survival, for our children and our children's children's. When I become a parent, I want to be proud of the fact we helped continue that journey towards one community, without borders and boundaries. Without prejudice. I don't want to be the generation that takes a step in the wrong direction. A step towards destroying that dream and my ideals.
Certainly not in and amidst a haze of propaganda and lies.
-----------------
Consider for a moment that this isn't our world, our time. For most of us will be dust before humanity gets a grip on itself. It is though, a potential beginning of the future, both on this silly little island and beyond. It's what might just define our potential.
The reality is out there. Go and speak to anyone outside the UK who lived the adoption of the Euro. If you think kicking Europe out of Britain is the answer, think again. Go find your own facts. Find the truth. Don't listen to the incessantly propagated nonsense, the social media “re-ers” of the Leave and Remain camps. Go listen to people. Go understand.
…Because here we stand on the precipice. The precipice of enabling a continuing international standing. We can maintain it for us but in doing so we create much much more for our children, and our children’s children. The European Union could unite us all and go on to be the foundation of a "Global Union"
So, I'm in
Because how could anyone be anything else?
 
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Johnuk123

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2,801
The Remainers much mentioned "reform from within" today smashed to bits by Juncker.
He has said what you have got is it, no more reform full stop, no renegotiations on anything whatsoever, no treaty change nothing.

Leave has said this from day one and been told they were wrong, well they were right all along, the EU is not capable of meaningful reform and it's come straight from the horses mouth.

BRUSSELS’ top bureaucrat has slapped down David Cameron and warned the Prime Minister there will be NO more reform to Britain’s EU membership if the country votes Remain tomorrow.European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker today dismissed Mr Cameron’s eve-of-referendum pledge he will push for changes to migration rules if the UK stays in the EU beyond the historic referendum in less than 24 hours time.
It represents a major blow to the Tory leader’s hopes of persuading still undecided voters to vote Remain with the promise of a further renegotiation of Britain’s relationship with Brussels.
In a newspaper interview today the Prime Minister said he can “guarantee” a Remain result will give him the mandate to push eurocrats for greater reform of the 28-country bloc.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...e-Juncker-David-Cameron-no-more-reform-Remain
 
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TheKnightWho

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The Remainers much mentioned "reform from within" today smashed to bits by Juncker.
He has said what you have got is it, no more reform full stop, no renegotiations on anything whatsoever, no treaty change nothing.

Leave has said this from day one and been told they were wrong, well they were right all along.

On what grounds?
 

Senex

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If it is to be Brexit, how long before there's strong pressure for Britain to lose its Security Council seat in favour of the EU or a representative of the EU (espcially if Scotland decides to go independent and stay in)?
 

miami

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If it is to be Brexit, how long before there's strong pressure for Britain to lose its Security Council seat in favour of the EU or a representative of the EU (espcially if Scotland decides to go independent and stay in)?

France is on the security council.
The UK will still have nuclear weapons.

Now India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea don't have security council seats either, but I don't see the UK being removed.
 

Harbornite

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I'm just hoping that tomorrow, Britain doesn't abandon reason for madness. It really has gone by quickly since the referendum was announced.
 

miami

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I'm concerned how Britain will glue itself back together after tomorrow. We're a fractured country, with feelings running very high on both sides. Even with a remain vote, this referendum has been a terrible blow to the UK that will take a long time to recover, all because of a tory party that refused to split in the 90s.
 

Howardh

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I'm just hoping that tomorrow, Britain doesn't abandon reason for madness. It really has gone by quickly since the referendum was announced.

Wonder how many Brexiters will turn up at the booths and think "hmmm, am I SURE about this?". There's a lot on the line and it's on their shoulders if it all goes wrong - and they lose their jobs etc etc.

Tell you what, if someone would offer me a referendum on my area leaving Greater Manchester and returning to Lancashire you can have my "X" any day, Brexit or Remain!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm concerned how Britain will glue itself back together after tomorrow. We're a fractured country, with feelings running very high on both sides. Even with a remain vote, this referendum has been a terrible blow to the UK that will take a long time to recover, all because of a tory party that refused to split in the 90s.
Will be a lot worse after Brexit than Leave (although as you say, that will be bad enough). Leave will be politician v politician and we can stand back and watch. If it's Scotland v The UK, Norn v The UK, Spanish v Gibraltar it will be more than the Westminster fall-out.
 
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Antman

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I'm just hoping that tomorrow, Britain doesn't abandon reason for madness. It really has gone by quickly since the referendum was announced.

The madness would be remaining in the EU, anyway that's been done ad nauseam. I actually think the time has dragged and it will be a relief just to get it over and done with tomorrow.
 
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