Should we start mining our own coal and use it in power stations until we can rely on renewable energy to supply all of our needs?

[melon68]

I don't know if coal is the answer. Are any of our mines still operable, or would we need to dig new shafts?

One of the main problems in reopening old deep mines is the flooded workings. It would cost a fortune to dewater the old mines that have potential reserves down to the working level of the seams which is often more than 1000m down. For example, the Selby and Nottinghamshire coalfields were shut down with some reserves left in-situ plus thousands of pounds worth of coal mining technology underground. The water table could be quite close to the ground now so there's millions of litres of water to be pumped out.
The Cumbrian mine is designed to mine anthracite for the steel industry, i.e. coking coal, not coal for power generation.

 

[brad465]

oops corrected!

No problem, looking at that there certainly seems to be more coal capacity left than I thought, and more than double what was typically used last winter, which will certainly be helpful considering a recent nuclear reduction with Hinkley Point B closing and overall demand issues.

since March we have been net exporting as we are producing electricity, on average, more cheaply than much of Europe. France in particular has been taking our power in quantity.

As I'm sure you know this is partly down to France having a large proportion of their nuclear capacity offline for maintenance. I don't know how much will be available for this winter, but themselves and everyone they export too will be hoping most of it gets back online in time.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Yes. But relationships with France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway and
Ireland are pretty cordial, no? In other news we are at the mercy of foreign entities for the supply of half our food, and most of our consumer goods.

Our relationship with France in particular hasn't been very cordial recently, no. I don't know precisely how they generate their electricity abroad but if they use gas as we do then buying from abroad isn't a secure supply either because if Russia does turn off the gas to Europe and it affects their electricity generation they are going to ensure they have enough for themselves before they worry about supplying it to us. Just because we rely on imports for certain things doesn't mean we have to for everything, especially essentials.

 

[tomuk]

Efficient air wash features and very dry and seasoned wood as a start. Waste products recyclable wood ash.

(Bit cleaner than your average 4x4 for example)

I'm not sure the comparison with a 4x4 is relevant I don't see many people popping to Waitrose in their Log Burners. Anyhow they put out more particulates than HGVs. And their other emissions and efficiency are worse than a condensing gas boiler. The desperate attempts to make them vaguely acceptable by burning kiln dried wood are laughable.

They are just a middle class affectation fuelled by the mistaken belief that they are 'green' and the feel good feeling that 'one is putting it to the man' in the form of the big energy companies.

 

[Bald Rick]

Our relationship with France in particular hasn't been very cordial recently, no. I don't know precisely how they generate their electricity abroad but if they use gas as we do then buying from abroad isn't a secure supply either because if Russia does turn off the gas to Europe and it affects their electricity generation they are going to ensure they have enough for themselves before they worry about supplying it to us. Just because we rely on imports for certain things doesn't mean we have to for everything, especially essentials.

Relationships with France are rather more cordial than with some other suppliers of energy. And certainly cordial enough that they are happy to buy almost 2GW of power from us right now at almost £600 / MWh.

(The average market price of electricity in 2021 was £113 / MWh, in 2020 it was £36).

The French use mostly nuclear, hydro, solar and wind for their electricity. Norway is almost entirely hydro.

 

[philosopher]

Our relationship with France in particular hasn't been very cordial recently, no. I don't know precisely how they generate their electricity abroad but if they use gas as we do then buying from abroad isn't a secure supply either because if Russia does turn off the gas to Europe and it affects their electricity generation they are going to ensure they have enough for themselves before they worry about supplying it to us. Just because we rely on imports for certain things doesn't mean we have to for everything, especially essentials.

Relations with France may not be as good as they were, but they are still pretty good. With Russia, even before the Ukraine war, they were pretty bad. On a scale of 1 to 10, relations with France may have gone down from say a 9 to a 7, but with Russia they may been a 3 out of 10 last year but are now a 1 out of 10.

 

[Howardh]

Norway is almost entirely hydro.

We are connected to Norway via cable, so we get some of that power!

Norway to provide renewable power to UK through underwater cable

Britain on Friday powered up the world's longest subsea electricity cable with Norway in order to share hydro and wind power, amid ongoing turmoil in the UK energy market.

www.thelocal.no

1/Oct '21

National Grid, which distributes energy to UK homes and businesses, said the 1.6-billion-euro North Sea Link will start commercial operations on Friday.

“The UK and Norway are now able to share renewable energy for the first time,” the company added in a statement.

This marked a “major milestone” in Britain’s target to reach net zero carbon emissions.

The cable’s maximum capacity will initially stand at 700 megawatts, but will be increased to 1,400 MW over three months.

 

[najaB]

There are no CANDU 9 were built and development of the ACR 1000 was cancelled, so much for a proven design.

AFAIK the ACR-1000 was only cancelled inasmuch as nobody ordered one. The underlying design is CANDU with a different coolant loop so it derives from a proven heritage.

 

[Bevan Price]

The world cannot afford to allow more CO2 producers; indeed we should aim to get rid of gas-fuelled power stations as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, rather too many politicians (particularly overseas) are too dim to accept that (no doubt often influenced by "donations" from industries with vested interests.) The alternative is more spells of 40+ Celsius temperature spells in UK, more droughts and/or floods, more wildfires, etc.

 

[Howardh]

The world cannot afford to allow more CO2 producers; indeed we should aim to get rid of gas-fuelled power stations as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, rather too many politicians (particularly overseas) are too dim to accept that (no doubt often influenced by "donations" from industries with vested interests.) The alternative is more spells of 40+ Celsius temperature spells in UK, more droughts and/or floods, more wildfires, etc.

That's fine, but how long will it take to replace gas, and how much will that cost? Doesn't help of course when the next PM (probably Truss) hates the thought of solar panels in fields. As one positive of the current crisis, we surely must be pumping less CO2 into the atmosphere as we are using far less energy due to the cost? So we are buying time.

We've got to get those solar panels onto homes and into fields and those wind turbines built.

 

[Yew]

The lead time on re-equipping decommissioned or opening new coal power stations is too long to make a difference in the next few years.
Maybe any still operating can be operated more with imported coal?

Ratcliffe has been piling up the yards to levels that I've not seen for a few years.

 

[Bald Rick]

We are connected to Norway via cable, so we get some of that power!

Norway to provide renewable power to UK through underwater cable

Britain on Friday powered up the world's longest subsea electricity cable with Norway in order to share hydro and wind power, amid ongoing turmoil in the UK energy market.

www.thelocal.no

1/Oct '21

I know - hence my earlier comments. Next year we will have a similar link to Denmark, and in a few years a link to Germany and further links to France. Denmark and Germany are investing rapidly in wind power (as are we).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2022 ==

Doesn't help of course when the next PM (probably Truss) hates the thought of solar panels in fields.

I wonder if she hates that more than the thought of her constituents being cold in winter?

 

[JamesT]

I know - hence my earlier comments. Next year we will have a similar link to Denmark, and in a few years a link to Germany and further links to France. Denmark and Germany are investing rapidly in wind power (as are we).

There were news reports recently about Norway considering restricting electricity exports. The recent dry weather has affected them too, so there was a suggestion they would cut exports to focus on refilling the reservoirs ready for winter.
Though as we currently have a surplus of gas generation, maybe we should be doing a deal with them to run the interconnector in reverse for now (ie we export to them) in return for a promise they'll supply us later?

 

[jupiter]

I haven’t seen this posted yet…so the following link might shed some light:

gridwatch.co.uk

You can see the present contribution from coal (often zero) and the mountain we need to climb to reduce dependency on gas.

 

[JamesT]

I haven’t seen this posted yet…so the following link might shed some light:

gridwatch.co.uk

You can see the present contribution from coal (often zero) and the mountain we need to climb to reduce dependency on gas.

Interesting layout. I've been using https://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ for years to see what the mix has been.

 

[adc82140]

I don't get why it's not compulsory for all new build houses to be equipped with solar panels, and existing houses offered panels at cost price. At this moment, I'm drawing nothing from the grid. It's a cloudy, rainy day. The hot water tank is already up to temperature. I've not used any gas for a month. Yesterday when the sun came out I was exporting 1.5kW average to the grid. Get as many people as possible on solar nicrogeneration, and the demand on the grid during daylight hours will be massively reduced.

With the cost of energy right now, I'm likely to break even on the cost of the panels in 3 years. Buying them in bulk without any mark up for a new housing development would be cheaper than I paid. Pocket change when compared to the overall cost of building a house.

 

[najaB]

I don't get why it's not compulsory for all new build houses to be equipped with solar panels, and existing houses offered panels at cost price.

We have a Tory government. Many on the right deny climate change.

I'm not saying the two are related, but I'm not saying that they aren't.

 

[adc82140]

We have a Tory government. Many on the right deny climate change.

I'm not saying the two are related, but I'm not saying that they aren't.

Climate Change or not, it's free electricity. To be honest that was the driving force to making my decision to get the panels fitted.

 

[najaB]

Climate Change or not, it's free electricity. To be honest that was the driving force to making my decision to get the panels fitted.

That it is, but an unfortunately large number of people think that alternative energy is the work of the devil.

 

[Yew]

If we were 10 years ago, with a few open mines and more coal power stations - I’d be encouraging supporting them. But I just don’t think the timescales for reopening, after the demolition of most headstocks and filling of the shafts would help us in the required timescales.

 

[Bald Rick]

There were news reports recently about Norway considering restricting electricity exports. The recent dry weather has affected them too, so there was a suggestion they would cut exports to focus on refilling the reservoirs ready for winter.
Though as we currently have a surplus of gas generation, maybe we should be doing a deal with them to run the interconnector in reverse for now (ie we export to them) in return for a promise they'll supply us later?

That’s exactly what has been happening this summer - we have been exporting to Norway, albeit not consistently. The deals are done on a half hourly basis. That interconnector is going to be very useful to us and them this winter - we’ll be sending them power on windy nights and early mornings to charge their large fleet of EVs, we’ll be taking it back on calm days and most evenings when our power demand peaks.

I don't get why it's not compulsory for all new build houses to be equipped with solar panels, and existing houses offered panels at cost price. At this moment, I'm drawing nothing from the grid. It's a cloudy, rainy day. The hot water tank is already up to temperature. I've not used any gas for a month. Yesterday when the sun came out I was exporting 1.5kW average to the grid. Get as many people as possible on solar nicrogeneration, and the demand on the grid during daylight hours will be massively reduced.

I agree, and not just homes, but any new buildings with a south facing roof. For example there’s lots of new warehouses going up, and even an average sized one with half its roof covered can generate 4MW peak, which would average 0.5MW over a year. That’s worth more than a million quid a year. Also the use of solar hot water heating is becoming much more viable with gas wholesale prices as they are (roughly 10 times the Pre covid avaerage).

 

[BananaRepublic]

Gridwatch is OK, but a more easily digestible site is….

National Grid: Live

Shows the live status of Great Britain’s electric power transmission network

grid.iamkate.com

You can immediately see in a snapshot, where the generation is coming from and the pie chart puts everything into context.

Click on the pie chart segments to get some numbers up



.

 

[DelayRepay]

Gridwatch is OK, but a more easily digestible site is….

National Grid: Live

Shows the live status of Great Britain’s electric power transmission network

grid.iamkate.com

You can immediately see in a snapshot, where the generation is coming from and the pie chart puts everything into context.

Click on the pie chart segments to get some numbers up

It's really interesting to look at this. For example, currently around half of our electricity is coming from fossil fuels, and only a quarter from renewable sources. And this is in the summer when presumably total energy demand is lower than in winter.

It does show how far we've got to go in removing our dependency on fossil fuels, despite all the investments in solar and wind generation. I don't think most people realise how dependent we are on gas for our electricity supply.

 

[najaB]

It's really interesting to look at this. For example, currently around half of our electricity is coming from fossil fuels, and only a quarter from renewable sources. And this is in the summer when presumably total energy demand is lower than in winter.

Winds have been relatively light over the last few days though.

 

[brad465]

It's really interesting to look at this. For example, currently around half of our electricity is coming from fossil fuels, and only a quarter from renewable sources. And this is in the summer when presumably total energy demand is lower than in winter.

It does show how far we've got to go in removing our dependency on fossil fuels, despite all the investments in solar and wind generation. I don't think most people realise how dependent we are on gas for our electricity supply.

Winds have been relatively light over the last few days though.

What we need is energy storage technology/capacity, something I mentioned further upthread. The best we usually get from wind on a day with plenty of it nationwide is 14-15GW, despite overall capacity being around 25GW, with a likely explanation being we can't use all of it due to supply and demand being in different places, and/or supply exceeding demand. Store any excess then on days with lighter winds we can send the stored energy onto the grid.

It is also worth noting that average wind speeds are usually higher in the winter anyway, which is just as well as that's when we need it most. I remember generation during Storm Arwen was around the aforementioned peak, which was just as well because it brought a lot of cold weather that will have increased demand.

 

[Bald Rick]

I remember generation during Storm Arwen was around the aforementioned peak, which was just as well because it brought a lot of cold weather that will have increased demand.

Indeed it was 20GW, and this winter at some point we will hit 21GW.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2022 ==

It does show how far we've got to go in removing our dependency on fossil fuels, despite all the investments in solar and wind generation. I don't think most people realise how dependent we are on gas for our electricity supply.

It also shows how far we have come. In the past year, just under 40% of our electricity has come from fossil fuels (Coal & Gas). 10 years ago that was 70%.

One thing that is distorting our stats this summer is that we have become net exporters of electricity rather than net importers. The exports are largely provided by gas power, which goes onto our energy mix. When we import, much is from France which is mostly nuclear and hydro, therefore counted as (mostly) green.

 

[DelayRepay]

It also shows how far we have come. In the past year, just under 40% of our electricity has come from fossil fuels (Coal & Gas). 10 years ago that was 70%.

Oh, I completely agree. I was thinking more that it demonstrates that we are not going to eliminate our dependency on fossil fuels simply by turning the temperature down on our washing machines. I don't think it's widely recognised how much of our electricity is generated from gas.

 

[najaB]

I don't think it's widely recognised how much of our electricity is generated from gas.

Around half. And roughly around half of our energy goes to heating and cooling.

Ergo, if we can reduce the amount of heating and cooling that's required we can reduce the amount of gas that's needed.

 

[DelayRepay]

Around half. And roughly around half of our energy goes to heating and cooling.

Ergo, if we can reduce the amount of heating and cooling that's required we can reduce the amount of gas that's needed.

Yes, but I think if you asked the average person on the street they would not know that.

I also think if you ask the average person on a 'green' electricity tariff, they would honestly believe that 100% of the electricity arriving at their meter was from renewables.

 

[najaB]

I also think if you ask the average person on a 'green' electricity tariff, they would honestly believe that 100% of the electricity arriving at their meter was from renewables.

That's always a fun one. All the electrons they've paid for will be from renewables, but the electrons that are heating their tea could be from anywhere. Is it a con? Opinions vary.