Siemens to build new factory in Goole, East Yorkshire

[td97]

Why ever would Siemens want to export from here?

The drop in the value of the £ since 2016 makes British exports cheaper

 

[edwin_m]

The drop in the value of the £ since 2016 makes British exports cheaper

Uncertainty about Brexit means nobody knows if duties would be payable on trains exported from the UK, and maybe also on components coming in for assembly even if the finished train is re-exported. That situation may make it more likely that someone will build a plant for domestic production (though it is still subject to winning some orders), but makes it less likely anyone will build a plant for exports. In any case Siemens probably has an excess of production capacity across Europe.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, if they do go ahead, perhaps it will provide an impetus to introduce a useable all-day service between Leeds and Goole.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

There is presumably some combination of politics, markets, tariff, exchange rates and workload that could lead to the site being used for export production, but I suspect that the dock access is more likely to be used to import shrink wrapped carriages.

The site is very well placed for the docks but given that wind turbine blades already make their way by road from the docks to a small yard on the industrial estate road haulage would be very easy. I assume that carriages would come under heavy lift project traffic, and could be handled by two cranes or roll on roll off. Interestingly the UK ports directory (2) tells you more about the port facilities than ABPs own site. (1)

The port does have rail links, including a rail terminal and quay access to West Dock and Railway Dock and these do connect to what appears to be a long siding to the glassworks running along the Southern boundary on the trackbed of the 1910 Wakefield cut-off and Selby line. The network connection now appears to be just South of the current passenger station at the North end of this siding.

For UIC loading gauge the issues might be the new road bridge North East of the site, and possibly having to back into the passenger station. Apart from that there is probably nothing too expensive to rearrange for a big enough contract, but I suspect that unless actually delivering to the UK network the builders would prefer to keep well away from it. Perhaps someone would like to speculate on the relevant tradeoffs.

(1) http://www.abports.co.uk/Our_Locations/Humber/Goole/

(2) http://uk-ports.org/goole/#prettyPhoto

 

[Billy A]

The drop in the value of the £ since 2016 makes British exports cheaper

It does, but exchange rates can go up as well as down. You'd build in a particular market to reduce your exposure to exchange rate fluctuations but you wouldn't plan to export based on current exchange rates as it could easily go horribly wrong. Also, Siemens have been reducing their workforce in Germany. Unions there won't look kindly on their members being replaced by cheap labour abroad.

 

[MarkyT]

If Hitachi bodyshell deliveries are anything to go by, similar Siemens items could come minus rail bogies and secured to a strong flat bed 'raft' which can be easily attached fore and aft to road bogies for the short haul over to the factory building for finishing.
https://www.railmagazine.com/galleries/hitachi-s-class-365-bodyshells

 

[BestWestern]

They have picked one of the cheapest areas in the entire country for buying land.

Well you would do, wouldn't you? They're hardly going to build it in central London! In a small country and supplying a product that could be deployed anywhere, it surely makes no difference at all where the factory is, so long as it benefits the manufacturer?

 

[northwichcat]

First order for Yorkshire built Siemens trains:

Siemens has been named by Transport for London (TfL) as the chosen supplier for the £1.5 billion Deep Tube rolling stock contract.

The 94 new trains, which will serve the Piccadilly line, will be built at a new factory in Goole, East Yorkshire.

It is the first order to be placed under the Deep Tube Upgrade Programme, which will introduce brand new trains across the Piccadilly, Bakerloo, Central and Waterloo & City lines.

Although it is only the first order to be placed, TfL said it was placed based on the expectation that a single supplier will manufacture all of the new Deep Tube trains.

https://www.globalrailnews.com/2018...contract-to-build-new-generation-tube-trains/

I bet they'll still be some upset people in Derby given the announcement of the Rolls Royce redundancies yesterday.

 

[Mikey C]

A funny state of affairs where from just having one assembly plant left (Derby) now we have competition between regions (East Midlands, South Wales, Yorkshire, North East)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A funny state of affairs where from just having one assembly plant left (Derby) now we have competition between regions (East Midlands, South Wales, Yorkshire, North East)

Plus the North West if Alstom gets any orders for its Widnes facility (and might get some of the TfL work if the Siemens/Alstom merger completes).

 

[Domh245]

We can only hope that when the current boom is over, there is still enough work to keep all the factories open, even if at lower capacities.

 

[Chester1]

We can only hope that when the current boom is over, there is still enough work to keep all the factories open, even if at lower capacities.

CAF Newport will only have 300 staff so its an easy site to keep ticking over. Unless Siemens botches this order it will be the first of many orders as part of the new tube (deep tube) program. Alstom Widnes has been built as a repair and upgrade facility and doesn't need new build orders although they would obviously like some. The conversion of 321s to AC/hydrogen bi modes could be employ many people if the prototype is a success. Hitachi seem to have the intercity bi mode market in the bag but are probably the most vulnerable. Bombardier Derby will almost certainly shrink, their output of EMUs is currently around 1000 coaches per year and that is not sustainable without exporting. Alstom, Siemens, Bombardier, Hitachi and Talgo are shortlisted for the first HS2 order. I like Talgo's HS trains but 5 UK train manufacturering sites will be too much to sustain without exports, which do not appear to be likely.

 

[northwichcat]

CAF Newport will only have 300 staff so its an easy site to keep ticking over.

Hopefully if CAF experience a downturn they do like with their Northern rolling stock bid and offer a loss leader price in the hope of winning a contract to keep the plant open. However, I don't know if they'll care about a plant in Wales as much as one in their home country.

 

[Goldfish62]

First order for Yorkshire built Siemens trains:



https://www.globalrailnews.com/2018...contract-to-build-new-generation-tube-trains/

I bet they'll still be some upset people in Derby given the announcement of the Rolls Royce redundancies yesterday.

I guess there's an emotional attachment for some to Derby even though Bombardier is Canadian, given that it's a former BR manufacturing plant.

 

[greyman42]

Are the trains going to be built from scratch at this factory?
Will this factory have a workforce with the necessary skills to do this?

 

[47802]

Blimey Bombardier wont be happy, I expect they threw everything including the kitchen sink at it including a joint bid with Hitachi, and of course all recent TFL stock has come from Bombardier, although its been clear for some time that Siemens have been gunning hard for this contract, and I doubt they would have got it without a UK assembly plant.

Jobs wise well I doubt it will be much benefit in the grand scheme of things Bombardier and Hitachi will have less work and less jobs, and one or both may close at some point after the Aventra and IEP orders etc.

 

[Billy A]

Are the trains going to be built from scratch at this factory?
Will this factory have a workforce with the necessary skills to do this?

Depends how you define "built from scratch". Like anybody else making big, complicated things Siemens will source many of the components elsewhere, whether from outside suppliers or other Siemens plants. They're unlikely to make complex things like transformers and motors in Yorkshire.

 

[Domh245]

It's almost guaranteed that a lot of the important bits like Bogies, Motors, Traction Electronics etc will be imported from other Siemens sites, indeed that's exactly what they do at Derby as well. The question that I'd be interested in seeing answered is if they will be importing the bodyshells prefabricated, as Newton Aycliffe does, or if they'll be assembled & painted on site from pre cut aluminium sections (as at Derby)

 

[fgwrich]

It's almost guaranteed that a lot of the important bits like Bogies, Motors, Traction Electronics etc will be imported from other Siemens sites, indeed that's exactly what they do at Derby as well. The question that I'd be interested in seeing answered is if they will be importing the bodyshells prefabricated, as Newton Aycliffe does, or if they'll be assembled & painted on site from pre cut aluminium sections (as at Derby)

Exactly so. Siemens actually has more businesses in the U.K. which currently supplies it’s european facilities, including the likes of its train control divisions down in Poole, or its facilities in the north east where entire cab modules are produced, then shipped out to Germany for installation into trains. Worth digging out the old diagram Siemens produced in the wake of the Thameslink contract, where Derby tried to cry foul of a “Non British” company winning the contract - indeed I’ve already seen the Derby Telegraphs article on the new tube for London contract make reference to Germany’s Siemens / Berlin based Siemens etc, while Bombardier is listed as Derbys Bombardier. It does also raise the question of, post IEP and outcome of the SouthEastern franchise / reliability improvements of the 385s, what happens in the North East.

Anyway, I for one welcome Siemens and the Inspiro to London - Siemens I know has been planning for this contract for several years now, placing them well ahead of Bombardier (Roger Ford at one event visited by Both Siemens, Alston and Bombardier a few years ago asked each company about the NTfL - Siemens had the Inspiro Mk1 prototype, Alstom were already in the design stages of planning a new train, Bombardier said they were in the process of starting from a blank new piece of paper). Having used and seen other Siemens Inspiro fleets, Siemens should be on to a winner here.

 

[jon0844]

Having seen the frustration with Bombardier on one of those tube documentary series, I wonder if Bombardier had already sealed its fate some years ago?

 

[47802]

Having seen the frustration with Bombardier on one of those tube documentary series, I wonder if Bombardier had already sealed its fate some years ago?

I remember seeing that but was quite a few years ago with the Victoria stock I think, if that was the case you wouldn't have thought they would have bought the Aventra for both Crossrail and Overground ok yes I know Siemens pulled out of the Crossrail bid but their were other bidders.

Also despite fgwrich comment another documentary I saw suggested Bombardier had been preparing a design and bid for this train for many years, but I guess if TfL regard the Siemens train as a better product in this instance then assembling it in the UK no doubt helped from the UK content perspective as well.

The long term future for both Derby and Newton Aycliffe may now be somewhat bleak unless one of them gets HS2, although there is the looming prospect that a lot of DMU's are going to need to be replaced with something in the mid 2020's.

I get the impression the main reason for the UK CAF factory was for this order but obviously they have saved face with the Welsh DMU's, they aren't on the HS2 shortlist.

Bombardier have also missed a trick by it would seem refusing to bid for DMU's, as CAF DMU's for Northern, Midland and Wales now adds up to a sizable order, and there could be more yet.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is the TfL announcement of the order:
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...d-manufacture-a-new-generation-of-tube-trains
There is the usual 10-day standstill period for legal challenges, before the contract is signed.

Twenty two UK suppliers have been identified in the bid to potentially work with Siemens Mobility Limited on the build of the trains. In addition at least 50 new apprentice and graduate positions could be created.

As announced earlier this year, the award of this contract is a significant step allowing Siemens Mobility Limited to progress its plan to build a new factory in Goole, East Yorkshire, to manufacture and commission trains.
The Siemens Mobility factory would employ up to 700 people in skilled engineering and manufacturing roles, plus up to an additional 250 people during the construction phase of the factory.
As a result, around 1,700 indirect jobs would be created throughout the UK supply chain. After completion, TfL will work with Siemens Mobility Limited to maximise the number of Piccadilly line trains being built in this facility.

 

[northwichcat]

Jobs wise well I doubt it will be much benefit in the grand scheme of things Bombardier and Hitachi will have less work and less jobs, and one or both may close at some point after the Aventra and IEP orders etc.

So it wouldn't make any difference if Siemens built the new Underground trains in Bavaria? Although, it should be noted while Thameslink trains are built in Germany Siemens did allow British engineers to apply for jobs to build the trains.

 

[greyman42]

It's almost guaranteed that a lot of the important bits like Bogies, Motors, Traction Electronics etc will be imported from other Siemens sites, indeed that's exactly what they do at Derby as well. The question that I'd be interested in seeing answered is if they will be importing the bodyshells prefabricated, as Newton Aycliffe does, or if they'll be assembled & painted on site from pre cut aluminium sections (as at Derby)

Yes, the bodyshells were what I had in mind in #75. I should of made it clearer.

 

[Goldfish62]

Exactly so. Siemens actually has more businesses in the U.K. which currently supplies it’s european facilities, including the likes of its train control divisions down in Poole, or its facilities in the north east where entire cab modules are produced, then shipped out to Germany for installation into trains. Worth digging out the old diagram Siemens produced in the wake of the Thameslink contract, where Derby tried to cry foul of a “Non British” company winning the contract - indeed I’ve already seen the Derby Telegraphs article on the new tube for London contract make reference to Germany’s Siemens / Berlin based Siemens etc, while Bombardier is listed as Derbys Bombardier.

And of course ignoring, or being blissfully ignorant of, the fact that Bombardier's European HQ is in Berlin, not Derby.

 

[Mikey C]

I remember seeing that but was quite a few years ago with the Victoria stock I think, if that was the case you wouldn't have thought they would have bought the Aventra for both Crossrail and Overground ok yes I know Siemens pulled out of the Crossrail bid but their were other bidders.

Also despite fgwrich comment another documentary I saw suggested Bombardier had been preparing a design and bid for this train for many years, but I guess if TfL regard the Siemens train as a better product in this instance then assembling it in the UK no doubt helped from the UK content perspective as well.

The long term future for both Derby and Newton Aycliffe may now be somewhat bleak unless one of them gets HS2, although there is the looming prospect that a lot of DMU's are going to need to be replaced with something in the mid 2020's.

I get the impression the main reason for the UK CAF factory was for this order but obviously they have saved face with the Welsh DMU's, they aren't on the HS2 shortlist.

Bombardier have also missed a trick by it would seem refusing to bid for DMU's, as CAF DMU's for Northern, Midland and Wales now adds up to a sizable order, and there could be more yet.

I'm not sure CAF expected this order. I imagine they will have an eye on the DLR contract though

 

[Goldfish62]

It's almost guaranteed that a lot of the important bits like Bogies, Motors, Traction Electronics etc will be imported from other Siemens sites, indeed that's exactly what they do at Derby as well. The question that I'd be interested in seeing answered is if they will be importing the bodyshells prefabricated, as Newton Aycliffe does, or if they'll be assembled & painted on site from pre cut aluminium sections (as at Derby)

The bodyshells for the 458s were built in Barcelona before being fitted out (badly) at Washford Heath. I don't recall a big fuss over that at the time.

 

[Mikey C]

The bodyshells for the 458s were built in Barcelona being before fitted out (badly) at Washford Heath. I don't recall a big fuss over that at the time.

The same happened for the (much better) 95 and 96 Tube Stock too. Indeed the top up order for additional 96 stock and the 7th car were entirely made in Spain.

 

[Goldfish62]

I remember seeing that but was quite a few years ago with the Victoria stock I think, if that was the case you wouldn't have thought they would have bought the Aventra for both Crossrail and Overground ok yes I know Siemens pulled out of the Crossrail bid but their were other bidders.

I think you'll find the Crossrail and Overground decisions had a high degree of political influence from the now-Foreign Secretary. As it has turned out the Aventra is not exactly covering itself in glory and I'd be wary of ordering anything from Bombardier pending how this pans out.

 

[Goldfish62]

The same happened for the (much better) 95 and 96 Tube Stock too. Indeed the top up order for additional 96 stock and the 7th car were entirely made in Spain.

You're quite right, I recall that.