Siemens wins contract to build 94 trains for the Piccadilly line

[edwin_m]

Ah OK, I assumed the new signalling would be done alongside and thus be part of the same 2026 date, presumably not.

The new signalling will be transmission-based so needs a lot of kit on the trains. Retrofitting this to the older trains would be risky and expensive. So the easiest solution is probably to replace all the old trains before starting on the re-signalling. This is what the sub-surface lines have done for example. The Victoria was a bit different as it had a historic ATO system, so both systems had to be kept running in parallel for a time. However while the old trains are still running the new ones can't exploit their better performance to deliver any headway or jouney time improvement.

 

[Andy25]

That's true but it depends on when they plan to start building the factory.

Sure I read end of 2019 somewhere but might be wrong

 

[TRAX]

That’s not a lot later than the Alstom-Siemens merger if everything goes to plan (sometime in 2019).

 

[Andy25]

That’s not a lot later than the Alstom-Siemens merger if everything goes to plan (sometime in 2019).

Yes, may be too short notice to change plans. And EU objections may take time to resolve. But Alstom should already have plans for a new build extension to the site and as there is an existing footprint would be quicker to build and get up and running.

Just have to wait and see

 

[edwin_m]

Companies planning to merge but awaiting regulatory approval must operate strictly as separate companies. The slightest hint of collaboration is likely to bring down draconian penalties under competition law.

 

[Mikey C]

IF TfL have an ongoing production programme with the NTfL, replacing the 73, 72 and 92 with one long production run of very similar trains, then the Goole factory has solid work for 15 years

With the trains for HS2 I'm not sure what Siemens (or Alstom) have promised concerning UK assembly, with both presumably being front runners. The proposed tie up between the 2 does provide a massive product clash in this sector, but maybe the Siemens trains could be assembled at Widnes if the merger goes through!

 

[Andy25]

Companies planning to merge but awaiting regulatory approval must operate strictly as separate companies. The slightest hint of collaboration is likely to bring down draconian penalties under competition law.

Hence why Siemens are currently going for Goole, but Alstom will be hoping the decision isn't too advanced by the time the merger is signed off so they can make their case for Widnes.

 

[Andy25]

Interesting info here regarding where some of the new trains will be built
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/n...itachi-snub-as-trains-to-be-built-in-austria/

 

[LOL The Irony]

Interesting info here regarding where some of the new trains will be built
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/n...itachi-snub-as-trains-to-be-built-in-austria/

The mp involved clearly taking things out of context as those 94 are for the Piccadilly Line only. We still have the Bakerloo, Central, Northern and Waterloo & City lines to go.

 

[Andy25]

The mp involved clearly taking things out of context as those 94 are for the Piccadilly Line only. We still have the Bakerloo, Central, Northern and Waterloo & City lines to go.

Hitachi are clearly going to turn in to Bombardier and start moaning that they might have to shut the factory if they aren't given every tender they enter.

Im sure LUL will be grateful Siemens aren't rushing to build a factory and have the first trains built by amateur train fitters, Hitachi have learnt that the hard way.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Hitachi are clearly going to turn in to Bombardier and start moaning that they might have to shut the factory if they aren't given every tender they enter.

Im sure LUL will be grateful Siemens aren't rushing to build a factory and have the first trains built by amateur train fitters, Hitachi have learnt that the hard way.

Very bitter and childish statement from Hitachi there, looks like they are even worse losers than Bombardier and Alstom and honestly that's pretty damn hard.

 

[Andy25]

Very bitter and childish statement from Hitachi there, looks like they are even worse losers than Bombardier and Alstom and honestly that's pretty damn hard.

If they were genuine complaints it would be understandable, many tenders have been poorly run, but the jobs angle is just poor.

In this instance I know a lot of legal stuff is over siemens lifetime costs, they weren't the cheapest trains but claimed their maintenance was half a billion cheaper than the competitors over 35 years. Based on how expensive the new eurostar have turned out to maintain I'd say there are probably grounds to be suspicious.

But I guess siemens have 35 years to be proved wrong!

 

[F Great Eastern]

If they were genuine complaints it would be understandable, many tenders have been poorly run, but the jobs angle is just poor.

The biggest thing for me was calling a proven product line that is currently in service in about half a dozen countries an inferior product to one they haven't even built.

In this instance I know a lot of legal stuff is over siemens lifetime costs, they weren't the cheapest trains but claimed their maintenance was half a billion cheaper than the competitors over 35 years.

Part of this could be done to the fact the Inspiro has been produced for about 5-6 years now so they have better sight of these things, although we don't know how different the London version will be.

 

[samuelmorris]

After the Aventra debacle, I think TfL's decision is fully vindicated, as if it even needed vindicating in the first place. There will be some changes for the UK / LUL environment of course, but starting with a proven product from a fairly adept manufacturer should certainly help.

 

[fgwrich]

Hitachi are clearly going to turn in to Bombardier and start moaning that they might have to shut the factory if they aren't given every tender they enter.

Im sure LUL will be grateful Siemens aren't rushing to build a factory and have the first trains built by amateur train fitters, Hitachi have learnt that the hard way.

Very bitter and childish statement from Hitachi there, looks like they are even worse losers than Bombardier and Alstom and honestly that's pretty damn hard.

I would say from that article it looks like Hitachi are playing the Bombardier card already, it may be poor journalism but I see they've already found themselves quoted as "The Newton Aycliffe based firm". Since when did Hitachi move HQ from Japan to the North East? The same toy throwing comment has been banded around Bombardier for many a year, with them labelling themselves as "The Derby based Firm", obviously French-Canadian Headquartered in Berlin doesn't have the same ring to it.

It's also a bit rich of Hitachi to start throwing their toys out of the pram at another manufacturer choosing to start production of it's rolling stock abroad while it's factory is under construction - I would say Hitachi have rather got themselves into the mess they've created by choosing to produce it's UK orders as quickly as possible, spread over 3 factories. The First Group ordered 802s could have been built in Newton Aycliffe for example, rather than the former Ansaldo facility as Pistoia - there was less of a rush for those. In fact, I'm led to believe that that is where the Hull Trains and Trans Pennine orders are also currently coming from as well. Not forgetting that the first UK orders was built in Hitachi's factories in... Japan as NA wasn't ready.

So it looks like we're now going to have Hitachi and Bombardier throwing it's toys out of the pram each time they lose an order, just because the preferential treatment is running out. Bombardier however at least seem to be keeping quiet as of late in relation to TfL matters... I couldn't think why!

 

[Mikey C]

I would say from that article it looks like Hitachi are playing the Bombardier card already, it may be poor journalism but I see they've already found themselves quoted as "The Newton Aycliffe based firm". Since when did Hitachi move HQ from Japan to the North East? The same toy throwing comment has been banded around Bombardier for many a year, with them labelling themselves as "The Derby based Firm", obviously French-Canadian Headquartered in Berlin doesn't have the same ring to it.

It's also a bit rich of Hitachi to start throwing their toys out of the pram at another manufacturer choosing to start production of it's rolling stock abroad while it's factory is under construction - I would say Hitachi have rather got themselves into the mess they've created by choosing to produce it's UK orders as quickly as possible, spread over 3 factories. The First Group ordered 802s could have been built in Newton Aycliffe for example, rather than the former Ansaldo facility as Pistoia - there was less of a rush for those. In fact, I'm led to believe that that is where the Hull Trains and Trans Pennine orders are also currently coming from as well. Not forgetting that the first UK orders was built in Hitachi's factories in... Japan as NA wasn't ready.

So it looks like we're now going to have Hitachi and Bombardier throwing it's toys out of the pram each time they lose an order, just because the preferential treatment is running out. Bombardier however at least seem to be keeping quiet as of late in relation to TfL matters... I couldn't think why!

Yes the expectation in the UK (at government level too I imagine) was that all 80* would be assembled in the UK after the first few, and instead a major chunk of them ended up being built in Italy.

Indeed the number if UK assembly plants is clearly unsustainable. A few years back we had something similar, where the Voyagers had a UK assembly line set up in Wakefield, which then subsequently closed

 

[gsnedders]

Yes the expectation in the UK (at government level too I imagine) was that all 80* would be assembled in the UK after the first few, and instead a major chunk of them ended up being built in Italy.

Indeed the number if UK assembly plants is clearly unsustainable. A few years back we had something similar, where the Voyagers had a UK assembly line set up in Wakefield, which then subsequently closed

All the IEP trains were assembled in the UK, right? It's only the later, non-DfT orders that have been built in Italy?

 

[samuelmorris]

All the IEP trains were assembled in the UK, right? It's only the later, non-DfT orders that have been built in Italy?

Except the pre-series ones built in Japan. I can't remember how many of those there were.

 

[Mikey C]

All the IEP trains were assembled in the UK, right? It's only the later, non-DfT orders that have been built in Italy?

I'm sure the DfT and BEIS expectation though was that any follow up orders would also be made in the UK

 

[Andy25]

I got a few bombardier guys defending themselves saying they weren't the ones complaining as the articles all reference MP's.

But MP's don't know what BT and HRE's factory pipeline line looks like so someone has told them what to say, and MP's in both regions coming out at the same time looks suspicious. Especially since the decision was made weeks ago.

I would say from that article it looks like Hitachi are playing the Bombardier card already, it may be poor journalism but I see they've already found themselves quoted as "The Newton Aycliffe based firm". Since when did Hitachi move HQ from Japan to the North East? The same toy throwing comment has been banded around Bombardier for many a year, with them labelling themselves as "The Derby based Firm", obviously French-Canadian Headquartered in Berlin doesn't have the same ring to it.

It's also a bit rich of Hitachi to start throwing their toys out of the pram at another manufacturer choosing to start production of it's rolling stock abroad while it's factory is under construction - I would say Hitachi have rather got themselves into the mess they've created by choosing to produce it's UK orders as quickly as possible, spread over 3 factories. The First Group ordered 802s could have been built in Newton Aycliffe for example, rather than the former Ansaldo facility as Pistoia - there was less of a rush for those. In fact, I'm led to believe that that is where the Hull Trains and Trans Pennine orders are also currently coming from as well. Not forgetting that the first UK orders was built in Hitachi's factories in... Japan as NA wasn't ready.

So it looks like we're now going to have Hitachi and Bombardier throwing it's toys out of the pram each time they lose an order, just because the preferential treatment is running out. Bombardier however at least seem to be keeping quiet as of late in relation to TfL matters... I couldn't think why!

 

[fgwrich]

I got a few bombardier guys defending themselves saying they weren't the ones complaining as the articles all reference MP's.

But MP's don't know what BT and HRE's factory pipeline line looks like so someone has told them what to say, and MP's in both regions coming out at the same time looks suspicious. Especially since the decision was made weeks ago.

Indeed so. Neither company can remain blameless in this situation, especially as Bombardier effectively rode the crest of the sympathy wave after the Thameslink contract.

Hitachi’s comments are rather hypocritical if what Tony Miles has said the other day is true - that Hitachi has been so unimpressed with the quality of the fit outs of the Newton Aycliffe work that they are shipping kits back out of the country to be completed in its Italian and Japanese factories. So even Hitachi itself isn’t impressed with its own QC!

 

[Andy25]

Indeed so. Neither company can remain blameless in this situation, especially as Bombardier effectively rode the crest of the sympathy wave after the Thameslink contract.

Hitachi’s comments are rather hypocritical if what Tony Miles has said the other day is true - that Hitachi has been so unimpressed with the quality of the fit outs of the Newton Aycliffe work that they are shipping kits back out of the country to be completed in its Italian and Japanese factories. So even Hitachi itself isn’t impressed with its own QC!

I've heard the Japanese dislike Hitachi Europe so much that when Engineers have been sent over they refuse to help on any NA built trains. They will only work on the ones they built in Japan.

 

[samuelmorris]

I've heard the Japanese dislike Hitachi Europe so much that when Engineers have been sent over they refuse to help on any NA built trains. They will only work on the ones they built in Japan.

I'm not saying they're false but these are some pretty serious accusations. Obviously you'd never see anything official about that but I'd like to know what's led to that happening. What components are they shipping back overseas?
(A bit off-topic for this thread, perhaps it ought to be split).

 

[Andy25]

I'm not saying they're false but these are some pretty serious accusations. Obviously you'd never see anything official about that but I'd like to know what's led to that happening. What components are they shipping back overseas?
(A bit off-topic for this thread, perhaps it ought to be split).

Hitachi in Japan don't seem to have twigged that the trains need to be maintained in Europe, all the bearings and greases are Japanese and as they are design authority it's very difficult to get them to sign off on using European equivalents. I've been sat opposite Hitachi engineers when they've said they almost have to reverse engineer some of their own kit as Japan won't give them the info they need!

 

[Mikey C]

Sounds bizarre, surely that's bad training of workers if the NA output isn't of sufficiently high quality

After all the Nissan Washington factory (which is fairly nearby) has had excellent quality from the start

 

[Andy25]

Sounds bizarre, surely that's bad training of workers if the NA output isn't of sufficiently high quality

After all the Nissan Washington factory (which is fairly nearby) has had excellent quality from the start

I suspect it was rushed, probably why Siemens are being cautious and not rushing to do the first trains in the UK before they're ready.

NA needs over 1000 work instructions to describe every little bolt assembly to try and ensure the fitters follow the correct way of doing things.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I suspect it was rushed, probably why Siemens are being cautious and not rushing to do the first trains in the UK before they're ready.

Probably they learnt that lesson with the first batch of Inspiros that they produced for Warsaw. The contract said the first 10 were to be built in Vienna and the other 25 in Poland.

The first Polish built one to enter service caught alight very shortly after entering service

 

[321over360]

i am surprised that TFL would switch suppliers for its New Tube Fleet, given most recent procurement from the 1990s (bar the horrid Jubilee/Northern fleets which are just horrible cramped 1970s sized trains) have been built by Bombardier, ie the 92 stock (when they were AdTranz/ABB), 09 stock, S Stock and all existing DLR Fleets, plus all TFL ordered LO and XRAIL fleets, i mean the Siemens NR fleets are terrible, i remember one hot summer getting on a c2c 357 and then on a NXEA 360 and the 357 had lovely air conditioning while the 360 was a bit stuffy as most Desiro trains seem to be, i was glad i got a 321 on the return as it had windows to get fresh air inside unlike the 360s

 

[edwin_m]

i am surprised that TFL would switch suppliers for its New Tube Fleet, given most recent procurement from the 1990s (bar the horrid Jubilee/Northern fleets which are just horrible cramped 1970s sized trains) have been built by Bombardier, ie the 92 stock (when they were AdTranz/ABB), 09 stock, S Stock and all existing DLR Fleets, plus all TFL ordered LO and XRAIL fleets, i mean the Siemens NR fleets are terrible, i remember one hot summer getting on a c2c 357 and then on a NXEA 360 and the 357 had lovely air conditioning while the 360 was a bit stuffy as most Desiro trains seem to be, i was glad i got a 321 on the return as it had windows to get fresh air inside unlike the 360s

That might be your personal view, but in the opinion of LUL the Northern Line stock is better than the Jubilee and the Central is the worst of all. But performance of existing fleets built 20 or more years ago isn't a good predictor of how today's totally different designs from whoever now owns the original manufacturers will perform.

 

[321over360]

That might be your personal view, but in the opinion of LUL the Northern Line stock is better than the Jubilee and the Central is the worst of all. But performance of existing fleets built 20 or more years ago isn't a good predictor of how today's totally different designs from whoever now owns the original manufacturers will perform.

For a 6ft6 guy, travelling on a 95/96 stock is like travelling in a 72/73 stock train, cramped when standing (doesnt help that there is poles across the middle of the ceiling) which means i feel squashed in, yet on a 92 stock, i can comfortably stand anywhere in the middle of the train (including under the central light with no discomfort) hence why i find them poor designed stock as they are not fit for the population height (plus have excessive levels of lighting throughout). I dont find the Centrals fleet to be too bad with reliability, the only issues i have faced generally is people who have managed to wander on the tracks, which has increased since Boris Johnsons fit for the future programme which saw staffing levels at Tube Stations reduced to unsafe levels - hence the rise in trespassing incidents on the Central Line which is now predominantly the cause of service disruption to the line)