Siemens wins contract to build 94 trains for the Piccadilly line

[jon0844]

Bombardier is saying that simply by not getting the contract their reputation is damaged like it has some God given right to win the contract..

With some of its recent creations, the best way to protect its reputation is to stop building trains.

 

[LLivery]

Are TfL permitted to take that into account when awarding the contract though?

They aren't. That said, it's quite difficult to prove if they did. Business is just one big drama, after all...

As far as I know the last DLR units were built there and I think they're bidding for the new contract are they not?

I'm pretty sure they weren't built here. According to the internet's most reliable source, Wikipedia, they were built in Germany.

 

[TRAX]

I thought this was fairly standard practice for the losing bidder in all of these major contracts? I'm sure I recall Siemens doing it once as well but I forget what for.

They all do it. We all remember how ridiculous Alstom was when they threw their toys out the pram after losing the Eurostar contract.

 

[TRAX]

As far as I know the last DLR units were built there and I think they're bidding for the new contract are they not?

The DLR B09 units were built in Bautzen, Germany.

 

[samuelmorris]

I stand corrected then. presumably the same would be true of the next fleet being introduced, assuming they were awarded the contract.

 

[transmanche]

According to the internet's most reliable source, Wikipedia, they were built in Germany.

It's easy to sneer at Wikipedia, but good Wiki articles cite sources. And the Wikipedia article on DLR rolling stock cites Metro Report International (part of Railway Gazette) as its source.

So, it's not "according to Wikipedia", but it's "according to the Railway Gazette"...

Bombardier plans to assemble the cars at Bautzen, with electrical equipment from Mannheim and bogies from Siegen.

 

[TRAX]

Factories are specialised. If Litchurch Lane decides to concentrate on multiple units and metros, there aren’t a lot of chances the factory would start building anything else as that would be very costly (R&D, factory adaptation, etc), especially given the small market that would cover (for locomotives for example, the Kassel factory manages to fulfill the European demand quite nicely).

 

[Mikey C]

I imagine CAF in Wales are targeting the DLR contract

 

[LLivery]

It's easy to sneer at Wikipedia, but good Wiki articles cite sources. And the Wikipedia article on DLR rolling stock cites Metro Report International (part of Railway Gazette) as its source.

So, it's not "according to Wikipedia", but it's "according to the Railway Gazette"...

I stand corrected. I've edited Wiki in the past, I know it can be reliable.

Factories are specialised. If Litchurch Lane decides to concentrate on multiple units and metros, there aren’t a lot of chances the factory would start building anything else as that would be very costly (R&D, factory adaptation, etc), especially given the small market that would cover (for locomotives for example, the Kassel factory manages to fulfill the European demand quite nicely).

Understood, but relying solely on the British Multiple Unit market seems like a bad idea. Especially with Hitachi, CAF and Siemens having competing UK factories, Stadler making good inroads and Alstom hanging around, I can't see this ending well for Litchurch Lane without a change.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Especially with Hitachi, CAF and Siemens having competing UK factories, Stadler making good inroads and Alstom hanging around, I can't see this ending well for Litchurch Lane without a change.

I can see Bombardier & Hitachi merging their UK train manufacturing arms.

 

[LLivery]

I can see Bombardier & Hitachi merging their UK train manufacturing arms.

Would make sense

 

[TRAX]

Understood, but relying solely on the British Multiple Unit market seems like a bad idea. Especially with Hitachi, CAF and Siemens having competing UK factories, Stadler making good inroads and Alstom hanging around, I can't see this ending well for Litchurch Lane without a change.

Indeed, but the threat of Hitachi, CAF, Siemens, and Stadler, is recent. Only a few years ago they were virtually absent (apart from Siemens and Hitachi without a UK factory), hence why Bombardier Derby didn’t have to change anything.

Would make sense

For the UK market yes, but that’s it.

 

[Andy25]

Are TfL permitted to take that into account when awarding the contract though?

They all say they stick to a fair score card system, but you can bet everyone chooses a favourite and finds a way to score in their favour. To think otherwise seems nieve.

So to answer your question I think it does do harm to future chances yes.

But in this case LUL probably won't award another contract for almost 20 years so maybe little to lose, and if there's a chance of getting your £10M tendering costs back it's probably worth a shot.

 

[Andy25]

They all do it. We all remember how ridiculous Alstom was when they threw their toys out the pram after losing the Eurostar contract.

At least the Alstom challenge was because the spec was changed from under them.

 

[samuelmorris]

They all say they stick to a fair score card system, but you can bet everyone chooses a favourite and finds a way to score in their favour. To think otherwise seems nieve.

So to answer your question I think it does do harm to future chances yes.

But in this case LUL probably won't award another contract for almost 20 years so maybe little to lose, and if there's a chance of getting your £10M tendering costs back it's probably worth a shot.

I'm not sure in this case. I'd have called Bombardier a shoo-in based on all their previous orders for TfL.

 

[fgwrich]

Some of the quotes I have seen from Bombardier and Hitachi from this are pretty laughable. Every time Bombardier lose a contract, despite some very favourable decisions in the past, they act exactly the same. It's almost like they feel they should automatically get it.

Bombardier is saying that simply by not getting the contract their reputation is damaged like it has some God given right to win the contract and if not it will sue just because of the fact they lost and Hitachi saying Londoners will be paying a higher price for an inferior tube train of a less advanced design comes across as a bunch of sore losers rather than someone with an actual gripe.

The Inspiro is an excellent train and that's from someone who has been on them.

With Bombardier still currently struggling to get to grips with their own new software on the Overground Aventra's, and the Crossrail Units still not posting high reliability figures, id have rather expected a company like Bombardier to have actually tried to stick their head down and just get on with the issues delaying their current under construction products for TfL first. Taking them to the high court because you've lost another contract just seemed frankly irisponsible, just as Hitachi's mud slinging of "Someone else's product is inferior to ours that we haven't actually made yet". Bombardier can hardly cover themselves in glory either, with all the "S 7 & 8" series having had to return to Derby for modifications, the issues which plagued the 09 stock introduction, and the failed sub surface signalling replacement scheme. Frankly neither manufacturer in the UK seems to be producing quality products at the moment with both B&Hs new rolling stock plagued with all sorts of issues, whereas the Siemens product at least has it's origins in a widely produced quality range.

I'm just surprised they haven't rallied up the RMT and every midlands MP again and started parading through the streets of Derby yet claiming how British they are, despite Siemens having deeper British routes than a French Canadian firm (ala Thameslink) Despite the rival product being built down the road in East Yorkshire.

Siemens I don't believe has ever taken anyone to court, However they have been let down by Abellio on a number of occasions - They originally were in talks to provide a range of new EMUs for the Greater Anglia franchise, before that went to a mix of Bombardier and Stadler, Abellio then promised Siemens a shoe-in for the West Midlands franchise before settling on Bombardier again for that.

 

[Andy25]

I'm not sure in this case. I'd have called Bombardier a shoo-in based on all their previous orders for TfL.

The S7 and S8 stock has a bad reputation in LUL though so in their most relevant reference they don't really have anything to brag about.

 

[hwl]

With Bombardier still currently struggling to get to grips with their own new software on the Overground Aventra's, and the Crossrail Units still not posting high reliability figures, id have rather expected a company like Bombardier to have actually tried to stick their head down and just get on with the issues delaying their current under construction products for TfL first. Taking them to the high court because you've lost another contract just seemed frankly irisponsible, just as Hitachi's mud slinging of "Someone else's product is inferior to ours that we haven't actually made yet". Bombardier can hardly cover themselves in glory either, with all the "S 7 & 8" series having had to return to Derby for modifications, the issues which plagued the 09 stock introduction, and the failed sub surface signalling replacement scheme. Frankly neither manufacturer in the UK seems to be producing quality products at the moment with both B&Hs new rolling stock plagued with all sorts of issues, whereas the Siemens product at least has it's origins in a widely produced quality range.

I'm just surprised they haven't rallied up the RMT and every midlands MP again and started parading through the streets of Derby yet claiming how British they are, despite Siemens having deeper British routes than a French Canadian firm (ala Thameslink) Despite the rival product being built down the road in East Yorkshire.

Siemens I don't believe has ever taken anyone to court, However they have been let down by Abellio on a number of occasions - They originally were in talks to provide a range of new EMUs for the Greater Anglia franchise, before that went to a mix of Bombardier and Stadler, Abellio then promised Siemens a shoe-in for the West Midlands franchise before settling on Bombardier again for that.

Siemens have taken plenty of legal action in other countries.

 

[Mikey C]

If Siemens HADN'T decided to open a UK assembly plant, would they still have got this order? The lack of UK assembly didn't stop them getting the 700 order (or indeed the earlier Desiro orders) but politically it's made things so much easier for TfL to award them this contract.

 

[TRAX]

The contract for 94 units was formally signed today by TfL and Siemens. As planned, the trains will be built in Goole.

 

[samuelmorris]

Good stuff, any estimate on when the first unit is likely to appear? I assume TfL are still working towards 2023 entry into service.

 

[TRAX]

The first unit is due for 2023 for testing and commissioning, with entry in passenger service planned for 2024, to increase capacity to 27 trains per hour by the end of 2026.

 

[samuelmorris]

Wasn't the original target 33tph in the peak? 27tph doesn't sound like much to get a 60% capacity increase...

 

[TheDavibob]

Wasn't the original target 33tph in the peak? 27tph doesn't sound like much to get a 60% capacity increase...

27tph is the pure increase from stock alone, with the current signalling. After the stock is delivered, the signalling will be upgraded (and some form of platform edge doors added) with progressive increase to 33tph, as per TfL's press release in June:
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...d-manufacture-a-new-generation-of-tube-trains

 

[samuelmorris]

Ah OK, I assumed the new signalling would be done alongside and thus be part of the same 2026 date, presumably not.

 

[greyman42]

The contract for 94 units was formally signed today by TfL and Siemens. As planned, the trains will be built in Goole.

Should that read fitted out in Goole?

 

[goldisgood]

Wasn't the original target 33tph in the peak? 27tph doesn't sound like much to get a 60% capacity increase...

Here's what the press release said https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...d-manufacture-a-new-generation-of-tube-trains

The combination of the limited fleet size (86 trains) and current signalling system design restricts the current peak period service on the Piccadilly line to 24 trains-per-hour (tph). The introduction of an initial fleet of 94 trains on the line, which will be delivered from 2023, will enable 27 tph to operate at peak times by the end of 2026. On completion of line-wide re-signalling and with the purchase of seven additional trains (up to a total of 101 trains), the service levels on the Piccadilly line will be progressively increased to 33 tph. The new signalling system will be designed with a capability to allow further timetable enhancements to a maximum of 36 tph - as is the case on the Victoria line currently - to meet expected future demand. This capability would require the purchase of a further eight trains (to a maximum fleet size of 109 trains), subject to affordability. This would mean an additional 21,000 customers able to board trains every hour during peak times

 

[Andy25]

The contract for 94 units was formally signed today by TfL and Siemens. As planned, the trains will be built in Goole.

We'll that's the current official line, the Alstom merger could happen before any building would be due to start. If it does there's a strong argument to build them in Widnes.

 

[TRAX]

That's true but it depends on when they plan to start building the factory.

 

[MatthewRead]

The first unit is due for 2023 for testing and commissioning, with entry in passenger service planned for 2024, to increase capacity to 27 trains per hour by the end of 2026.

I thought the first one was due to arrive in 2022 and enter service in 2023.