Siemens wins contract to build 94 trains for the Piccadilly line

[LeeLivery]

There is more to compliance than just wheelchair access (which I now realise you weren't really asking about, but ho hum), although step free access is addressed in the railengineer article linked to above:



make of that what you will.

I see, thanks. It'll be interesting to see how this will work out and of course, it's the only stock without screens.

 

[pethadine82]

Will these trains run at 60mph as the current ones are too slow!! Faster trains are a must.

 

[Dstock7080]

and of course, it's the only stock without screens.

A new CIS Customer Information System is to be fitted.

 

[Andy25]

Yorkshire built bodyshells?

Don't be daft!

 

[bluegoblin7]

I see, thanks. It'll be interesting to see how this will work out and of course, it's the only stock without screens.

1992 stock of both flavours also does not have screens. It is also due to get them fitted in due course.

 

[LeeLivery]

1992 stock of both flavours also does not have screens. It is also due to get them fitted in due course.

It really shows I try to avoid travelling by tube

 

[rebmcr]

The need to have trains of two different floor heights serving separate destinations on tube and mainline routes dictates that on one or both of the train-platform interfaces, there will be accessability issues. Providing suitable signage is given along all affected routes, the arrangements probably qualify for exemption from absolute PRM compliance. Given that duplicating platforms along the route from Kensal Green north-westwards would be prohibitively expensive, the only way to be compliant would be to terminate all Bakerloo trains at Queens Park, - politically in the 'very difficult' basket!

The 72TS fleet is almost exactly one 72TS carriage longer than the 378 fleet. There could be a designated 'low platform zone' at either the front or end of the Bakerloo trains, without affecting the 378s. The rest of the platform could then just be full-height.

 

[reytomas1228]

Does anyone know how many coaches these new trains will have and their individual lengths? Also, the 2014 Siemens video shows full level boarding at Caledonian Road and King's Cross St Pancras, which would require major platform reconstruction or trains with lower floors (if it is even possible). Does anyone know if this kind of level boarding was just chosen for the video and in reality platform humps will continue being used, or if a far-reaching platform edge modification will be done along most of the Piccadilly line even though PED's were quietly dropped?

 

[Kite159]

The 72TS fleet is almost exactly one 72TS carriage longer than the 378 fleet. There could be a designated 'low platform zone' at either the front or end of the Bakerloo trains, without affecting the 378s. The rest of the platform could then just be full-height.

And aren't the 378s on the Watford locals meant to be getting replaced by the shorter 4coach 710s?

 

[Dstock7080]

Does anyone know how many coaches these new trains will have and their individual lengths? Also, the 2014 Siemens video shows full level boarding at Caledonian Road and King's Cross St Pancras, which would require major platform reconstruction or trains with lower floors (if it is even possible).

Current thinking (guessing!) is because the train will only have large double-doors and no singles, the cars would be definitely shorter, so maybe 8/9/10 for the Piccadilly.
Cars being shorter would allow them to be slightly wider and technical advances could allow a slightly lower floor, although wheel size is an important factor.

 

[samuelmorris]

Replacing the 73TS before the 72TS makes sense in a way - the primary objective here is extra capacity, not just nicer trains to travel on. I imagine the bathtub curve will put paid to any significant reliability improvements before the 2030s. The Piccadilly upgrade is cited as providing a 60% capacity increase at peak times which is definitely needed. The Bakerloo upgrade, apart from being a less significant 25%, is also from what I've seen of the line's usage, less urgent. The only urgency really is the rather dire state of the trains. The differing quality of the refurbishments mean that for the 2-4 years difference in age, the 73TS looks as if it has 10+ more years of service life more than the 72, but for the reasons above I can settle for them being done in the opposite order.

What I'm less happy about is the wholesale replacement of the B90/B92/B2K DLR units before the Bakerloo stock. The performance and reliability of those units to my knowledge would lead to very minimal benefit in them being replaced other than the small area gains from being fixed-formation units. With no cabs to get in the way, that's probably less than a 10% benefit. I'm all for new units being introduced to ensure all DLR trains are full length and to get some air conditioned DLR stock, but I'd have thought the Bakerloo upgrade really should have come first unless they spend a very large sum bringing the 72TS up to a reasonable standard.

The 92TS are also very tatty from 25 years' heavy use without refurbishment (the seat cover and cab change a few years back doesn't count!) - I'm aware that they're rather unloved and being left to deteriorate prior to replacement but for a line as important as the Central line and with 10 years before the first unit gets withdrawn, I really do hope they at least give them a refresh, a la 96TS. Ideally they'd also fit PIS displays as it's kind of absurd that the Central line of all lines still doesn't have them.

Has anyone been able to gleam any info regarding the ventilation on the NTFL units? I notice while originally touted as air-conditioned, all the blurb about them now reads 'air cooling'.

 

[F Great Eastern]

You need not worry. The Inspiro units in Warsaw are technically air cooling rather than conditioning and for what they do they are probably the best cooling or air conditioning system I've seen on a metro train.

If they use the same system it can also automatically increase or decrease the power depending on how full carriage is. Same with the PIS volume.

 

[samuelmorris]

Interesting - I never took air cooling to be very effective but I suppose it depends on the implementation. I wonder how effective the refill regime will be at TfL...

 

[Dstock7080]

The 92TS are also very tatty from 25 years' heavy use without refurbishment (the seat cover and cab change a few years back doesn't count!) - I'm aware that they're rather unloved and being left to deteriorate prior to replacement but for a line as important as the Central line and with 10 years before the first unit gets withdrawn, I really do hope they at least give them a refresh, a la 96TS. Ideally they'd also fit PIS displays as it's kind of absurd that the Central line of all lines still doesn't have them.

The 1992 Stock are awaiting the construction of a new workshop in Acton Works for a major overhaul of this Stock; fitting of AC traction package, fitting of PIS audio/visual, LED car lighting.

Has anyone been able to gleam any info regarding the ventilation on the NTFL units? I notice while originally touted as air-conditioned, all the blurb about them now reads 'air cooling'

The TfL press release was very clear saying “fully air conditioned” rather than the previously mentioned air-cooling:
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...d-manufacture-a-new-generation-of-tube-trains

 

[samuelmorris]

Fair enough, I was looking at the originally announced 'New Tube for London' brief rather than the recent press release. Good to know!

 

[F Great Eastern]

Believe me the system on the Warsaw version of the Inspiros is better than the good system on the s7 stock. But then again neither system works as deep as the lines the London ones will go on with their smaller tunnels so hard to predict.

But believe me. Siemens know how to make a good metro train.

 

[swt_passenger]

Will these trains run at 60mph as the current ones are too slow!! Faster trains are a must.

“Faster trains” is an over simplified requirement. You definitely need rapid acceleration and deceleration, but a practical usable top speed is also dependent on inter-station distances, frequency, and dwell times.

 

[Dstock7080]

“Faster trains” is an over simplified requirement. You definitely need rapid acceleration and deceleration, but a practical usable top speed is also dependent on inter-station distances, frequency, and dwell times.

Signalling is another limitation on overall speed, currently PICC Line maximum is 45mph in certain areas.
(H&C Line Hammersmith-Latimer Road is lifted to 50mph this weekend with CBTC)

 

[samuelmorris]

I imagine the curve radius in certain parts also limits speed to a lot less even than that. Nonetheless with as many stops on the route as there are, I'm sure end-to-end journey times would be dropped noticeably. Were there any CBTC plans for the Piccadilly resulting from this? The press release refers to 'signalling and control systems' numerous times but not sure if that refers to CBTC or not.

 

[swt_passenger]

Signalling is another limitation on overall speed, currently PICC Line maximum is 45mph in certain areas.
(H&C Line Hammersmith-Latimer Road is lifted to 50mph this weekend with CBTC)

Yes of course, another limiting factor in any railway.

 

[rebmcr]

Were there any CBTC plans for the Piccadilly resulting from this? The press release refers to 'signalling and control systems' numerous times but not sure if that refers to CBTC or not.

New signalling for the Piccadilly line has been pushed back after the new rolling stock, so that they're not trying to launch two new technologies at the same time.

 

[Mojo]

New signalling for the Piccadilly line has been pushed back after the new rolling stock, so that they're not trying to launch two new technologies at the same time.

Nothing really new there, you wouldn't have new signalling implemented until after the entire fleet of trains has been replaced as it doesn't make any sense to install the technology on old trains that are going to be withdrawn. That's notwithstanding existing financial constraints meaning that there's only the money for the trains at the moment!

Were there any CBTC plans for the Piccadilly resulting from this? The press release refers to 'signalling and control systems' numerous times but not sure if that refers to CBTC or not.

No such signalling system has even been tendered yet and is not due to be awarded for a couple of years yet, so it is way too early to say whether this will be CBTC, TBTC, or something else.

 

[rebmcr]

Nothing really new there, you wouldn't have new signalling implemented until after the entire fleet of trains has been replaced

Nobody told that to the Jubilee Line Extension team!

 

[Mojo]

Nobody told that to the Jubilee Line Extension team!

I don't understand the comparison; if you're building a new railway line then you have no choice to install new signals?

 

[edwin_m]

Nothing really new there, you wouldn't have new signalling implemented until after the entire fleet of trains has been replaced as it doesn't make any sense to install the technology on old trains that are going to be withdrawn. That's notwithstanding existing financial constraints meaning that there's only the money for the trains at the moment!

The other option, as done on the Victoria line, is to "overlay" the old and new signalling so that both systems are effectively working at the same time, obviously with measures to ensure that they are co-ordinated. The old trains continue to use the old signalling and the new trains use the new signalling, until both the old trains and the old signalling can be taken away.

This was necessary for the Victoria as the old trains were automatically driven. It's is less likely with the Piccadilly (or the sub-surface lines) as the old signalling is based on manual driving and the new trains can be driven manually until the new signalling is ready.

 

[LU_timetabler]

Current plan is
Picc goes first and then gets new signalling. Finish by 2023.
Bakerloo is next, and yes new stock, line extension, new signalling (and maybe even re-extend to Watford) slated 2028.
Central by 2033 - refurb programme just starting now for current 92 stock at the moment.
W&C by 2035.

 

[samuelmorris]

I thought it was starting in 2023, not finishing then? A 12 year span, while possible, makes me wonder if they are really going to be all to the same design. A lot can happen in that space of time.

 

[rebmcr]

W&C by 2035.

That seems a good opportunity to begin driverless trials.

 

[LU_timetabler]

Well they can't be entirely the same ... 1. different signalling systems, 2. Central requires different power pick-up shoes, due to outside current rail at non-standard height.

 

[Dstock7080]

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/business/bombardier-siemens-piccadilly-line-jobs-1814456

Derby’s Bombardier has launched a legal battle over a decision to award a £2.5 billion contract to build new Tube trains to German rival Siemens.

Last month, Transport for London(TfL) announced that it had decided to award a £1.5 billion contract to design and build 94 new London Underground trains for the Piccadilly Line to Siemens - instead of a joint venture consisting of Bombardier Transportation and Hitachi Rail.