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Signallers should no longer be referred to as "signalmen"

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WelshBluebird

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As I replied to the "ladies and gentlemen" thread with, it really isn't difficult to use more inclusive language. Many of us just do it without throwing a wobbly online (ironically the people who do throw tantrums about this thing are the ones who label us as "snowflakes").
Unfortunately, I suspect that the vast majority of the UK disagrees with (or couldn't care less about) that neo liberal, revisionist (and arguably deluded) philosophy that requires everything to be safe and cosy, no room for opposing views, literally demanding changes to our ordinary language and that everyone is treated equal (except anyone they disagree with), which is why there will be a Conservative government for many decades to come.
Somewhat off topic but I do find it somewhat puzzling that it is often those on the left who are trying to champion for a more fair and equal society who are the ones that get called "revisionist" or accused of wanting to erase history when in reality is the the group opposing them who are the ones who try to sugar coat British history and pretend good old Great Britian never did anything bad!
Life isn't fair and equal, it never has been, and never will be.
That doesn't mean people can't fight for it to be more fair and more equal. And thank god for that - if people didn't fight for that then we'd still be in a country with section 28 and the like.
 
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Journeyman

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Nothing wrong with believing in equality and inclusion, in fact, it is hardly a "belief" in any event. I'm sure the vast majority of people in the country have no problem with equality and inclusion.

What people DO have a problem with is being told that THEIR version of equality and inclusion is not good enough, or outdated, or that they aren't doing it right, or that if they don't do XYZ instead, they will be labelled as <insert term here>.
But things do change. 250 years ago it was considered morally acceptable to enslave Africans. In the 1950s it was considered acceptable to state "no coloureds, no Irish" when advertising rooms to rent. In my childhood in the 80s, it was considered acceptable to indulge in a little homophobic bullying.

I once held views I now consider to be abhorrent, because I've learned more about how my actions and choices affect people.
Everybody has the right to be offended, but everyone also has the right to offend other people, (again save for certain legal/criminal acts). If you take offence to something, it's not something to fear or ban/prevent - challenge it, get your view across. I might well still think you're an oddball, and you might think likewise about me, but people do not (and should not always) agree with each other, and it is healthy to have opposing points of view, regardless of the matter at hand.
I don't consider the "right to offend people" to be sacrosanct, and I will go to all reasonable lengths to avoid doing so. Expressing a political view someone might disagree with is one thing, but deliberately not respecting people's identities is another matter entirely.
My right to call someone a "Signalman" or "Milk Man" does not mean that you do not also have the right to call yourself "Signal Person" or "Milk Delivery Agent". There is no "right" answer.
The term is "signaller" and has been for decades. If you work in safety critical environments, you have to use official terms to avoid confusion. Why is this such a problem for you?
 

Tazi Hupefi

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As I replied to the "ladies and gentlemen" thread with, it really isn't difficult to use more inclusive language. Many of us just do it without throwing a wobbly online (ironically the people who do throw tantrums about this thing are the ones who label us as "snowflakes").

Somewhat off topic but I do find it somewhat puzzling that it is often those on the left who are trying to champion for a more fair and equal society who are the ones that get called "revisionist" or accused of wanting to erase history when in reality is the the group opposing them who are the ones who try to sugar coat British history and pretend good old Great Britian never did anything bad!

That doesn't mean people can't fight for it to be more fair and more equal. And thank god for that - if people didn't fight for that then we'd still be in a country with section 28 and the like.

Absolutely nothing wrong, as you say, with promoting / championing a fair and equal society, if that's what you want / believe in. Many people, in reality, do not want a fair and equal society, because by human nature, it is natural to want what is best for you and your family above what is best for society at large. I think most people agree in principal that they would like a fair and equal society, but only if it does not disadvantage themselves, or somehow "lessen" their own status. I find that younger people, who may not have much life experience, (but not exclusively), are more idealistic and far more liberal, campaigning as you say, for the cause. However, as they get older in life, and their priorities and perspectives change, most people statistically do become more conservative (and not just in the political party sense), and more protective and defensive of maintaining or enhancing their own circumstances. This cycle has been running for generations, although worryingly for the Labour / Left, the change is starting to happen at a younger age, and in larger demographics of society than before.

The "War on Woke" for example resonates with large proportions of the electorate, which is why crazy political policies result in legislation like that of specifically protecting statues (despite our laws being perfectly adequate in that regard already!) end up in the headlines.
 
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Journeyman

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Absolutely nothing wrong, as you say, with promoting / championing a fair and equal society, if that's what you want / believe in. Many people, in reality, do not want a fair and equal society, because by human nature, it is natural to want what is best for you and your family above what is best for society at large. I think most people agree in principal that they would like a fair and equal society, but only if it does not disadvantage themselves, or somehow "lessen" their own status.
Ah, yes! If you improve the lot of people at the bottom of the pile, you'll lose out!

What absolute nonsense. It's not a zero-sum game. Including and respecting others doesn't disadvantage me at all.
 

deltic

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I think most people agree in principal that they would like a fair and equal society, but only if it does not disadvantage themselves, or somehow "lessen" their own status.

Sadly I think you are probably right.
 

Cowley

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Not wanting to shut the debate down but things are getting a little heated...
Can we try and have a respectful conversation about this subject on here from now on please.
It’s been interesting reading some of this, but it gets unpleasant if it becomes too fractious.
Thanks all. ;)
 
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There is an obsession (generally) emanating from typically left wing, younger members of society with preventing offence, creating 'safe spaces' etc - when they ought to be encouraging diverse, opposing, challenging and different views and perspectives. Someone on this forum before essentially tried to tell me to stop posting - i.e. because they cannot accept or understand an alternative perspective. If you think my views are obnoxious, that is absolutely fine, you're allowed to think that, and so long as I play within the rules (and law), which hopefully this forum would agree I am compliant with, I can continue to post things which you do not like to read. I disagree with a lot of things being posted in this particular area, but I celebrate the variety of opinions being shared and discussed and would not want anybody to stop posting just because I find the views of some here fairly unusual and excessive.
Yours are the only views which seem excessive to be honest! I'm not sure anyone at all has a problem with preventing offence, it's just in this case you aren't personally offended so you can't understand why others might be.

This isn't an argument of the world vs Tazi Hupefi and it's very much taking this thread down a dead end - there is a right and wrong in this case, most of the other thread posts agree, and I hope that a few people will now think twice about just referring to us all as Signallers.
 

Starmill

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I used to call the "pilotman" as in 'pilotman working' simply the pilot, or the Network Rail Pilot. This was pointed out that it wasn't that distinct from a route conductor who is also known as a pilot.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Yours are the only views which seem excessive to be honest! I'm not sure anyone at all has a problem with preventing offence, it's just in this case you aren't personally offended so you can't understand why others might be.

This isn't an argument of the world vs Tazi Hupefi and it's very much taking this thread down a dead end - there is a right and wrong in this case, most of the other thread posts agree, and I hope that a few people will now think twice about just referring to us all as Signallers.
Another example of attempting to close down a quite interesting debate simply because you hold an opposing point of view....

Again, I couldn't care less what you want to call yourself, Signaller, Signalman - in fact, Light Fairy, Button Jockey etc, I really couldn't care. I do not work in any environment where I can even imagine myself regularly using the term. The principal is that you do not get to dictate to the world at large what you are called or referred to as, regardless of whatever is written in your employment contract. I also imagine that 99.9% of staff in such a role wouldn't bat an eyelid if you called them Signalman whether in the "job" or not, and regardless of gender. From a rule book / procedural perspective, there may be a 'defined' term for the purposes of good communication during safety conscious tasks, but if there is a rule book, I'm certainly not bound by it, and nor is the majority of the country!

I also DO understand that others may be offended - that's the point! If they want to take offence at being called Signalman, Milk Man instead of Signaller, Milk Delivery Agent etc, so be it!
 
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I was enjoying the discussions but part of it is listening and responding appropriately.

I don’t want the debate stopped, I just want it to stop being monopolised by one person with outdated and frankly offensive views.

Please stop speaking on behalf of ‘everyone’ and certainly stop speaking on behalf of all signallers or even all in the railway, as you are not any of them, and allow us to continue this discussion in a friendly and open manner.
 

Journeyman

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The principal is that you do not get to dictate to the world at large what you are called or referred to as
Actually, yes you do.

Everyone has the right to be addressed and referred to in the manner of their choosing, and if you continue to address people in a way that doesn't comply with their wishes, you're being staggeringly rude.

Please stop speaking on behalf of ‘everyone’ and certainly stop speaking on behalf of all signallers or even all in the railway, as you are not any of them, and allow us to continue this discussion in a friendly and open manner.
Exactly, I was trying to encourage him to bow out gracefully, but he continues to make a fool of himself.
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Actually, yes you do.

Everyone has the right to be addressed and referred to in the manner of their choosing, and if you continue to address people in a way that doesn't comply with their wishes, you're being staggeringly rude.
There is no such right whatsoever. You can be called some pretty (or even extremely) unpleasant things (although I would hope not too often), and as long as you stay on the right side of the law, it's free speech.

Being rude it may well be, however, but again, there is no law against being rude to someone! If someone is rude to you, either challenge them, or have a conversation with someone you like!

I would agree with the "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" perspective - but this is a prime example where you assert YOU have a RIGHT to be addressed EXACTLY as you specify. And that is the problem.
 

WelshBluebird

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Many people, in reality, do not want a fair and equal society
Thankfully I don't live in that world, or at least the people who I associate with are not like that. I think it would be a bloody miserable existence if everyone I knew was just in it for themselves!
but only if it does not disadvantage themselves, or somehow "lessen" their own status.
To try to bring it back on topic - how on earth does calling someone a signaler instead of a signalman "lessen" your own status?
I find that younger people, who may not have much life experience, (but not exclusively), are more idealistic and far more liberal, campaigning as you say, for the cause. However, as they get older in life, and their priorities and perspectives change, most people statistically do become more conservative (and not just in the political party sense), and more protective and defensive of maintaining or enhancing their own circumstances. This cycle has been running for generations, although worryingly for the Labour / Left, the change is starting to happen at a younger age, and in larger demographics of society than before.
You suggest that is age and experience related - I disagree. It is more linked to money or wealth. The reason historically it has been seen as linked with age is because as you got older, you got wealthier - you got pay rises or better jobs, you managed to buy a house, you are part of a good pension scheme etc, then yes you will start to lean conservative. Both in terms of the party (whose policies usually favour those with money) and in general ideology (as you want to protect what gave you that wealth). My generation has seen that link between age and wealth pretty much destroyed. You aren't as likely to be able to get better paid jobs or pay rises and you aren't as likely to be easily able to afford a house (instead you'll have to be thankful for a roof whilst you pay your landlords mortgage) and you certainly aren't likely to get a good pension (you'll be lucky to get one at all). I'd love to see an actual source for that demographic change because that isn't what I am seeing at all (and yes, I am acutely aware that is partly because of the people I tend to associate with).

The "War on Woke" for example resonates with large proportions of the electorate, which is why crazy political policies result in legislation like that of specifically protecting statues (despite our laws being perfectly adequate in that regard already!) end up in the headlines.
The statues example is a hell of a lot more complex than what you give it credit for though (and that is part of the problem - the media will reduce it down to a headline or an image, but the actual issue is much more complex).

In terms of Bristol specifically, there were a lot of local reasons why it was only a matter of time for the Colston statue. And it is quite funny you talked about "revisionism" earlier as it was the local Tories and merchant ventures who were the ones trying to erase the nasty parts of Colston's history by fighting against adding a new plaque to the statue to explain his role in the slave trade. Who is being revisionist when one group wants all of our history to be told, wort's and all, but another group only wants to tell the good bits?

And in terms of the Churchill statues specifically - well lets say I think it says a lot that those "protecting" the statues last summer were basically just drunk football lads who wanted a fight (and they acted like it - including urinating on a memorial for a murdered cop in London).
 

Starmill

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There is no such right whatsoever. You can be called some pretty (or even extremely) unpleasant things (although I would hope not too often), and as long as you stay on the right side of the law, it's free speech.
Not on the forum though ;)
 

Annetts key

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RSSB has produced this manual to provide end-users with access to the content of GERT8000 (The Rule Book) that is relevant to the roles of Signaller and Signalling Technician as defined in the Rule Book Matrix published by RSSB.

End of argument...

[Unless you all cough up £5 each to continue...]
 

MattRat

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Everyone has the right to be addressed and referred to in the manner of their choosing, and if you continue to address people in a way that doesn't comply with their wishes, you're being staggeringly rude.
And this is why the 'discussion' spirals out of control. Merely not really caring is offensive now, which is just silly. If you want to be political, fine, but other people have the right to not be political.
 

Journeyman

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And this is why the 'discussion' spirals out of control. Merely not really caring is offensive now, which is just silly. If you want to be political, fine, but other people have the right to not be political.
There's nothing political about respecting peoples' wishes.
 

XAM2175

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And this is why the 'discussion' spirals out of control. Merely not really caring is offensive now, which is just silly. If you want to be political, fine, but other people have the right to not be political.
If you don't really care, is it really that much effort to make a minor adjustment in order to avoid inadvertently causing bother?
 

yorkie

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I think we are done here.

People are entitled to disagree with others, but this should be done respectfully please.

Just a reminder that if anyone has any concerns regarding any post, we do ask that you:

  • use the report link at the bottom of the post concerned
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Thanks.
 
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