• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Signalling problems - what are they?

Status
Not open for further replies.

pnepaul

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2012
Messages
116
Last week my train from Euston to Carlisle was delayed due to the ubiquitous "signalling problems", this time between Watford and Euston.

I am very curious to know as to what kind of signalling problems occur to cause delays. I have noticed that some cause longer delays than others. So, as I said, what sort of faults occur to cause problems?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
10,690
Location
Redcar
Not sure about the exact problems you have faced, but lightning can often be a factor and there was plenty of that last week.
 

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
The term 'signal fault' very rarely means a fault with a signal itself, but generally with a part of the system which interlocks with it.
Railway signalling is designed to fail safe, that is if there is a fault, then the system will default to a state that will stop trains and prevent accidents.
There are six systems involved. Two you're aware of, the signals and points. The third is the control system used in the signalbox itself, and then there are track circuits and axle counters that give the signalman the location of every train, Advanced Warning System (AWS) which warns drivers of the indication of the next signal, and Train Protection & Warning System (TPWS) that will automatically activate train brakes in certain instances.
All these systems work together and a fault with one can affect the other.
Signals are positioned along the line to keep trains a safe distance apart, and depending on how busy the stretch of line is, are used to regulate the traffic. The different coloured lamps tell the driver how far ahead the track is clear for. If one of those lamps fails (and they have multiple filaments to reduce this), the next most restrictive light will show, thus affecting the information the driver sees.
Points are used to move a train from one line to another. They are operated by the signaller (often many miles away from the location) and generally use an electric motor to move the points across. Apart from the drive system, there are a number of 'proving' circuits involved, which indicate to the signaller that the points are fully across and safely locked into position. If there is an obstruction (e.g. tree branch, stones, litter), these circuits will fail (as they cannot detect that the points have moved), and this will set the signal that protects the points to red, thus stopping an approaching train.
Track circuits and axle counters tell the signalman where a train is. Each circuit or counter is isolated from its neighbours. As a train enters each section, it short-circuits a relay, this will then set the signal behind the train to red. This is why if you are near the back of a train, it will seem that you always pass red signals, but you can't see the red signal at the back which protects your train! If this circuit gets a false current (metal objects across the track are a favourite to cause this), then the relay will short-circuit and set the signal. If a track circuit shows occupied when it shouldn't, that will also lock the points and signals that feed into it.
The control panel in the signalbox consists of all the controls that the signaller needs to operate signals,points and level crossings. These generally cause few problems, but occasionally a fuse or bulb will blow giving a false indication which needs to be investigated.
AWS is a system which uses permanent and electro-magnets and is used to inform the driver the state of the upcoming signal. There is either a bell or buzzer in the cab of the train, the bell sounds if the signal is 'clear', and a buzzer if it is 'restrictive'. The driver can ignore the bell, but MUST cancel the buzzer by pressing and releasing a button within six seconds. If he doesn't, the train brakes will come on. If there is a problem (power issues affect AWS most), the permanent magnet controls the 'restrictive' part, and this will make the driver run slower as they cannot be sure that the line ahead is as clear as they would expect.
TPWS is similar, this will activate if it detects that a train is running too fast and also if approaching a signal set at red and will automatically operate the brakes in these instances.
All these systems interlock together, and are controlled from a signalbox, often very remote from location. This means that are literally thousands of miles of cables linking them all together, which can be affected by the weather, rodents, vandalism (there was an instance this weekend where vandals smashed open the back of a signal, smashed all the bulbs and ripped out all the wiring) and of course, any component, no matter how well maintained, can fail or even be duff when new. Added to those miles of cables are millions of fuses, relays, capacitors, gears, cogs, motors, levers and other items and although they are all inspected and tested at frequent intervals, nothing is perfect.
I hope that at least gives some idea as to what can cause these problems and why services are stopped when they do.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
25,060
Location
Nottingham
Signalling is designed to fail "safe", so if there is a problem the result is to put signals to red which causes delay but avoids accidents.

The track circuits are probably the element that fails most often. Their electrical connections to the rail make them vulnerable to damage and various things can reduce the electrical resistance between the rails enough for the track circuit to show occupied. This means that all trains have to stop at a signal on the approach and be authorised to proceed once the signaller is sure the previous train has fully passed through the problem area.

Axle counters have been used instead of track circuits to increase reliability, but these have problems of their own.

Point detection is another source of unreliability. If the point is not detected in position, to a tolerance of about a millimetre, then again the signal won't clear, and these have to work in close proximity to the vibrations of passing trains. The machines that move the points can also fail.

The larger signalling failures are often down to cable theft or damage. Most types of signalling rely on multicore cables to link all the equipment, and if one of these is lost then quite a large area can be out of use until it is restored. Because of the potential for disaster if these are connected wrongly, there are also special rules for installing and testing vital signalling cables so it takes longer than people might expect.

Finally a power failure or even a fire alarm can put a signalling centre out of use, often controlling a large area in which nothing moves until the centre is available for use again.
 
Last edited:

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
That is an excellent summary by EM2 !

Could I just put in a word for 2 sources of 'signalling failure' which are external to the system as designed ?
Human and nature.

The human element includes the almost weekly theft of operational cables, and the misuse of level crossings by the public, and the risk of an incomplete maintenance or renewals job by permanent way crews.

The nature element includes ice, rain, leaves and creatures, all of which can restrict the movement of mechanical systems (e.g. points) and the electrical contacts (e.g. track circuits - you can speculate on the consequences of a small furry animal cowering between 2 rails when one of them moves towards the other.)
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
Signal failure normally means that the signal is working correctly, if there is a problem then the signal wont clear, which is what it is designed to do.
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
Finally a power failure or even a fire alarm can put a signalling centre out of use, often controlling a large area in which nothing moves until the centre is available for use again.

If a fire alarm does go off in a signalling centre, do all signals covered by that centre get set to red until all staff are back in?
 

dysonsphere

Member
Joined
22 Jan 2013
Messages
518
If a fire alarm does go off in a signalling centre, do all signals covered by that centre get set to red until all staff are back in?
I would imanige they would run to end of set route then be stuck at first red as no further route set.
 

headshot119

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2010
Messages
2,051
Location
Dubai
If a fire alarm does go off in a signalling centre, do all signals covered by that centre get set to red until all staff are back in?

No they do not, that would cause more chaos on top of that caused by the signalling centre being evacuated. Drivers don't like passing a green then getting a red.
 

carriageline

Established Member
Joined
11 Jan 2012
Messages
1,897
Normally a broadcast is made over the radio telling drivers what is happening and to wait for further instructions. There was 'rumours' of when the fire alarms went off at Three Bridges last year, control were trying to get trains moving, when the box was empty. But that is a rumour.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
There was 'rumours' of when the fire alarms went off at Three Bridges last year, control were trying to get trains moving, when the box was empty. But that is a rumour.

How many times did the drivers tell 'control' to fu um go away in short sharp jerky movements?

The only person that can authorise a driver to pass a signal at danger is the signaller*, anyone else will be told where to go!

* in certain circumstances others can pass on the authority from the signaller but that is outside the scope of this thread.
 

carriageline

Established Member
Joined
11 Jan 2012
Messages
1,897
I also believe they was trying to get trains to set back into platforms etc, again only rumours!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
I should imagine from the number of reports that signalling problems are the largest overall delay cause across the Network
 

Tio Terry

Member
Joined
2 May 2014
Messages
1,178
Location
Spain
If a fire alarm does go off in a signalling centre, do all signals covered by that centre get set to red until all staff are back in?

The Design of modern Signalling Control Centres - including ROC's - is such that the Operators are in a 2 hour fire protected part of the building. This allows the controlled shut down of the Control Centre rather than an emergency shut down.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top