Simple excess question

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RJ

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So I'm travelling out on Monday and returning on Friday. I buy a SVR from Salwick to Troon routed via Dumfries costing £42.20 with a 16-25 Railcard.

Upon arrival at Troon, I decide I want to travel back from Stranraer and stop off at Glasgow on the return. As it's excellent value for money, I also want to travel First Class on the return portion.

How much would the excess be?
 
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yorkie

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There is no straightforward answer as it depends on how you treat the excess. Some clerks will refuse to do it, a significant number will just admit they don't know how, while others will charge varying amounts depending on their training. I would simply "shop around" until you find someone prepared to offer an excess at the price you are expecting to pay.

The excess instructions also vary by TOC, especially where 1st class is concerned.

There is no 1st class on the Stranraer to Glasgow portion of the journey, nor between Preston & Salwick, and you'd not be entitled to a Railcard discount.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I think there is plenty of information on the forum to find the answer for yourself RJ, but as Yorkie says, the amount you are charged will depend on who you ask.
 

Solent&Wessex

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As usual for one of your queries this is quite complicated.

As a starter : Troon and Stranraer are both associated with either Paisley Gilmore St or Kilmarnock. Salwick is Preston.
Salwick to Troon Rte via Dumfries fare fails the fare check for Paisley. There is no Rte Dumfries fare for Paisley and the Rte Carlisle fare for Paisley is more expensive than the Rte Dumfries fare for Troon. Therefore I would suggest that on your outward journey you must change at Kilmarnock and not via Glasgow.

If you did an excess fare to travel back from Stranraer, a Salwick to Stranraer Rte Dumfries fare, I would say, is valid via Glasgow as it passes the fare check for Paisley and it is permitted route using Map LM.

Thus, The excess could be done in 1 stage, as it is an over distance Excess the instructions state that the excess should be :

FOR SLW - STR (Rte Dumfries) £304.00 (No Railcard Discount for 16-25) Less ticket already purchased SVR SLW - TRN (Rte Dumfries) £42.20 = £261.80.

However, you might say this is a bit steep for the addition of First Class between Glasgow and Preston. In which case the Excess would be done in 2 stages. The first stage is to Excess the fare to an over distance. So SLW - STR Rte Dumfries (With 16-25) = £59.55, Less £42.20 already paid = £17.35.
This allows you to start back at Stranraer and travel via Glasgow.

As for the First Class Excess it is pot luck with that as it depends which TOC you get and which version of the hopelessly complicated procedures they follow, but as a stab in the dark, if I was doing it, it would be : £107.40 for the first class XS between Glasgow and Preston, which is only marginally less than the cost of a First Class Single between the two.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think there is plenty of information on the forum to find the answer for yourself RJ, but as Yorkie says, the amount you are charged will depend on who you ask.

Indeed, I'm sure the OP knows the answer, and is merely fishing to see if anyone can get the answer he gets. But I am bored waiting time to go to work, so fancied a challenge.
 

clagmonster

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Presumably you are inteding to go: Stranraer-Glasgow-WCML-Carlisle-south on the return and hence not pass through Dumfries. Therefore, there are three excesses in play: over-distance, change of route, change of class, all of which follow different procedures.
Assuming the clerk decides an over riding excess can be done, which after you have arrive at Troon is changing the origin on the return portion only, so strictly isn't by the book, you can do:
over distance:
Salwick-Stranraer £59.55
Salwick-Troon £42.20
Excess: Full difference: £17.35

Change of route:
Salwick-Stranraer route Carlisle £65.15
Salwick-Stranraer route Dumfires £59.55
Excess: Half the difference: £2.80

Change of class:
Salwick-Stranraer route Dumfries SVH £32.60 (I'm assuming here that the SVH can be excess to as the is a single in the other direction in the same transaction)
Stranraer-Salwick route Carlisle FOS £106.60
Total to be excessed to: £139.20
Fare already paid: £67.95
Excess: £71.25

In total, in my opinion, you should be excessed £71.25+£2.80+£17.35=£91.40
 

barrykas

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Change of class:
Salwick-Stranraer route Dumfries SVH £32.60 (I'm assuming here that the SVH can be excess to as the is a single in the other direction in the same transaction)

SVH tickets are ONLY sold through the Virgin Trains website as part of a return journey, generally involving an Advance ticket in the opposite direction. They're not available from Ticket Offices or on train.

By my reckoning, using the rules as currently printed in The Manual:

For the overdistance from Stranraer to Troon, I'd sell a new Anytime Day Single at a cost of £14.25 with Railcard discount, as this is less than the excess fare would be (now stated as the FULL difference in Return fares).

For reference, the excess would be calculated as:

Y-P SVR Salwick - Stranraer rte Dumfries : £59.55
Y-P SVR Salwick - Troon rte Dumfries : £42.20
Difference : £17.35

For the change of route, ignoring the Stranraer - Troon leg:

Y-P SVR Salwick - Troon rte Carlisle : £48.05
Y-P SVR Salwick - Troon rte Dumfries : £42.20
Difference : £5.85

The amount charged for the excess could be any of £2.90, £2.93 or £2.95. I'd lean towards the former, as it's fairer to the passenger.

For the excess to First Class, again ignoring the Stranraer - Troon leg:

Y-P SOS Salwick - Troon rte Carlisle : £42.55
FOS Troon - Salwick rte Carlisle : £143.00
Sub-Total : £185.55
LESS Y-P SVR Salwick - Troon rte Carlisle : £48.05
Excess : £137.00

Giving a total to pay of £14.25 + £2.90 + £137.00 = £154.15

Though it could also be argued that you could do the whole thing in one step, which'd give the following:

Y-P SOS Salwick - Troon rte Dumfries : £37.30
FOS Stranraer - Salwick rte Carlisle : £161.50
Sub-Total : £198.80
LESS Y-P SVR Salwick - Troon rte Dumfries : £42.20
Excess : £156.60

Cheers,

Barry
 

reb0118

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Lots of permutations available. I worked this out last night on the sleeper, wrote down my workings, then mislaid my piece of paper :(

I'll find it later and post back. With regard to the upgrade to first is it not the case that the original ticket has to be excessed to a SOR before applying the first upgrade? This may mean that there is no benefit in excessing as a new first SOS from GLC/CAR to PRE may be cheaper than the combined excess?

I stand to be corrected though :)
 

clagmonster

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SVH tickets are ONLY sold through the Virgin Trains website as part of a return journey, generally involving an Advance ticket in the opposite direction. They're not available from Ticket Offices or on train.
Fair does. I knew they were only available in conjunction with a single in the opposite direction, but didn't know they could only be sold online. In that case, I agree with your workings in full.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....With regard to the upgrade to first is it not the case that the original ticket has to be excessed to a SOR before applying the first upgrade?....

Not anymore.

I don't believe anyone has yet given the correct answer according to the rules in The Manual (Barrykas is so very close though).
 

clagmonster

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For the excess to First Class, again ignoring the Stranraer - Troon leg:

Y-P SOS Salwick - Troon rte Carlisle : £42.55
FOS Troon - Salwick rte Carlisle : £143.00
Sub-Total : £185.55
LESS Y-P SVR Salwick - Troon rte Carlisle : £48.05
Excess : £137.00
Hang on, would the appropriate fare for the outward not be the route Dumfires SOS? In which case, we have:
Salwick-Troon, route Dumfries, SOS £37.30
Troon-Salwick, route Carlisle, FOS £143.00
Fare already paid £42.20+£2.90=£43.10
Excess: £137.20
 

barrykas

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Hang on, would the appropriate fare for the outward not be the route Dumfires SOS? In which case, we have:
Salwick-Troon, route Dumfries, SOS £37.30
Troon-Salwick, route Carlisle, FOS £143.00
Fare already paid £42.20+£2.90=£43.10
Excess: £137.20

Mea culpa. Temporary brainfart. Though mine works out cheaper, so I'd use that as justification. ;)
 

hairyhandedfool

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Except that £42.20+£2.90=£45.10, not £43.10, making the excess £135.20

The only other thing I would note is that Stranraer to Kilwinning is the same price as Stranraer to Troon and allows the use of trains that do not stop at Troon
 

DaveNewcastle

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As usual for one of your queries this is quite complicated.

. . . .

Indeed, I'm sure the OP knows the answer, and is merely fishing . . . . .
Never!

But I've persistently failed to find the enjoyment in catching scaly wet fish in rivers - while this variety of fishing does illustrate a vast range of curiosities and unintended possibilitis for passengers, which does become very relevant to anyone seeking to defend a passenger or to advocate industry reform.
And both of these are very lively fora.
 

34D

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Never!

But I've persistently failed to find the enjoyment in catching scaly wet fish in rivers

Erm if this is a quiz, is thw answer actually £0 because RJ will show his staff ID and get upgraded to first for free?
 

Squaddie

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Is RJ ever going to return to the thread he started and tell everyone what the "correct" answer is?
 

Squaddie

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Arguably there isn't a "correct" answer as it depends on interpretation.
That's why I put the word in quotes. :D

I'm pretty sure that RJ isn't actually planning to make the journey he describes in the opening post, and will eventually return to demonstrate his extensive knowledge of the fares system. (Or, if it is a genuine query, to thank those who have offered suggestions).
 

RJ

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Thanks for the responses.

Given that it wasn't a quiz, I don't actually have an answer. I wanted to garner the general consensus on how a ticket change which requires all four excessible elements of a ticket to be altered in one direction only should be handled. I figured that here would be the best place to come to pick the brains of people who know which rules to reference in order to provide an answer which I could work from in future.

I find that providing an example situation is better than merely asking directly. Whilst I might not make the journey as given in the original post, it doesn't mean that I won't/haven't already made use of a similar set of circumstances. In fact, I have, but it was far more complex than the scenario given in the original post and certainly didn't conform with some of the explanations offered. When I was in the ticket office, it was understood that an excess ticket cannot be excessed which implied only one excess allowed per ticket. Plus, I used to mark the original tickets to prevent abuse, such as one person using the original and a second person using the excess. However, I don't profess to know everything, which is why I'm asking on here.

The only things there were a given was that the outward portion was absolutely fine with the route Dumfries ticket originally held, but the return portion would need to be routed via Carlisle to allow travel to Glasgow, plus no railcard discount for the return portion.

The "simple" in the title was intended to be ironic. Thank you for the helpful posts, it's appreciated!
 
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