"Smart" fare dodgers - even smarter guard !

[ralphchadkirk]

That raises a strange question, is it illegal to carry live firearms on a train? (if you're licensed to carry it)

Or was the guy carrying some Class A/B/C?

Honestly didn't get a train around Folkstone when on training... honest... I walked all the way back to Dover...

How are firearms and drugs related to this discussion at all? And yes, it would be illegal to carry a live firearm on the train.

 

[island]

He didn't have one (and ended up with a £250 fine, as BTP happened to be at the next station, and he was carrying stuff he shouldn't have been).

How are firearms and drugs related to this discussion at all?

My bold. I expect it will have been a controlled substance in this scenario.

 

[Nym]

How are firearms and drugs related to this discussion at all? And yes, it would be illegal to carry a live firearm on the train.

Is that in bylaws or something, since it was legal to be caring the firearm at the time, and it wasn't on show, or loaded, and if I remember right, not in a fireable state for that we'd removed the firing pins before boarding.

 

[LexyBoy]

Is that in bylaws or something, since it was legal to be caring the firearm at the time, and it wasn't on show, or loaded, and if I remember right, not in a fireable state for that we'd removed the firing pins before boarding.

Not permitted except with special dispensation from the TOC according to the NRCoC Appendix B (page 25).

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Is that in bylaws or something, since it was legal to be caring the firearm at the time, and it wasn't on show, or loaded, and if I remember right, not in a fireable state for that we'd removed the firing pins before boarding.

I think it is; byelaws 2.1, 2.2 are relevant here.

 

[Flamingo]

He had a knife. Didn't threaten me with it, I hasten to add. Just his bad luck that BTP happened to be there as he was leaving the train (it was somewhere where I would not have expected to find them).

Firearms on train are covered by CoC, - if loaded then they are not permitted, if unloaded then they are not permitted unless a special dispensation has been obtained from the TOC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've known a few cases where people were spotted carrying firearms on-board (or claiming to be), and the response was "vigorous" from the boys in blue!

Here was one of them

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Bris...ted-gun-joke/story-11247077-detail/story.html

 

[pemma]

I think a fare-dodger would be hard pressed to bring a charge for assault in these circumstances. Apart from everything else, it would involve them calling BTP, and the conversation going something like:
Passenger to BTP: "I want to report this Train Guard for assault, he prodded me with his ticket stampers"
BTP to Guard: "Did you?"
Guard to BTP: "Yes, I was doing a full ticket check and they would not wake up to allow me to inspect their ticket - they still won't show it to me"
BTP to Passenger "Do you have a ticket?"
Passenger to BTP: "But yea but no but yea but no, I lost it, my mate had it for me..." etc
BTP to Passenger: "I am arresting you for travelling without possession of a valid ticket, you have the right..." etc.

Based on that conversation BTP would be wrong to arrest the passenger. The passenger has claimed the guard has assaulted him and the conductor claimed it was because he wouldn't pay. BTP should first ask other witnesses exactly what happened. If the guard prodded him without making more reasonable attempts to wake the passenger first then I could see the guard getting arrested.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Based on that conversation BTP would be wrong to arrest the passenger. The passenger has claimed the guard has assaulted him and the conductor claimed it was because he wouldn't pay. BTP should first ask other witnesses exactly what happened. If the guard prodded him without making more reasonable attempts to wake the passenger first then I could see the guard getting arrested.

You will not be arrested with assault for prodding someone.

 

[pemma]

You will not be arrested with assault for prodding someone.

A male passenger was removed from a ScotRail train and arrested for squeezing the knee of a female passenger. Prodding someone with a metal instrument should be classed as more serious and I'm sure repeatedly poking someone in the arm with your finger could lead to a harassment charge if not an assault charge.

 

[Gareth]

I'd think that would be more to do with a male passenger touching a female passenger he's unaquainted with and so has no business doing that. That could even pass as sex assault, these days.

The rail guard pestering someone for tickets would not normally be seen in the same light.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

A male passenger was removed from a ScotRail train and arrested for squeezing the knee of a female passenger. Prodding someone with a metal instrument should be classed as more serious and I'm sure repeatedly poking someone in the arm with your finger could lead to a harassment charge if not an assault charge.

Firstly, there has to be warning of the attack for assault to occur. The actus reus of assault requires that the subject fears immediate and unlawful personal violence. There cannot be assault if the person is unaware before the battery is committed. Secondly, I believe that implied consent would exist in this case, as it is reasonable that when a guard is checking tickets, he should wake the passengers who are asleep. A reasonable way of doing things would be to prod the passenger with the ticket clippers - it's not painful, it does no damage, and it would serve its purpose.

I doubt the repeated prodding could be classed as harassment, as it requires that the course of conduct would amount to harassment (which would not exist in the isolated case of a ticket inspector waking someone), and that the defendant knows it would amount to harassment.

A male passenger squeezing the knee of a female passenger is certainly more serious than a ticket inspector prodding someone awake.

 

[Flamingo]

As you are more knowledgeable about these things than me, Ralph, would the issue that a reasonable inference would be that the passenger was feigning sleep to avoid buying a ticket (especially if travelling from a manned station, or in a PF area), be taken into account by the BTP or CPS, for example?

I am thinking of a similar case where I was threatened with police being called for assault and "breaching my yumin rights" by a passenger I had to waken. He didn't have a ticket from Paddington to Bristol, and was refusing to pay until we reached Reading, where BTP basically told him to shut up and get off the train.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

As you are more knowledgeable about these things than me, Ralph, would the issue that a reasonable inference would be that the passenger was feigning sleep to avoid buying a ticket (especially if travelling from a manned station, or in a PF area), be taken into account by the BTP or CPS, for example?

I'm not sure TBH. I would find it very unlikely that the CPS would ever prosecute such a case, and if they did, I would think it would be easy to get off. I would imagine that they would take into account that reasonable force was used in order to prevent a possible breach of the law. I would also hope that the officers used common sense to see that waking someone up in order to see their ticket isn't a crime!

I would think that your example of the situation would be the most likely, only to add the BTP would probably ask a witness what happened, and as long as they didn't say that you were whacking him over the head with it then it should be fine!

 

[pemma]

A reasonable way of doing things would be to prod the passenger with the ticket clippers - it's not painful, it does no damage, and it would serve its purpose.

You'd have to hope the passenger in question has not recently had an injection (particularly a BCG one) or blood transfusion where you're prodding them for it to do no damage.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm not sure TBH. I would find it very unlikely that the CPS would ever prosecute such a case, and if they did, I would think it would be easy to get off. I would imagine that they would take into account that reasonable force was used in order to prevent a possible breach of the law. I would also hope that the officers used common sense to see that waking someone up in order to see their ticket isn't a crime!

I would think that your example of the situation would be the most likely, only to add the BTP would probably ask a witness what happened, and as long as they didn't say that you were whacking him over the head with it then it should be fine!

Thanks for that - it's what happened (see my edit above)

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You'd have to hope the passenger in question has not recently had an injection (particularly a BCG one) or blood transfusion where you're prodding them for it to do no damage.

I doubt the usual force used for prodding will cause internal injury.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for that - it's what happened (see my edit above)

Yes, I just saw that. I think the BTP took the correct course of action!

 

[Flamingo]

Just to add, on one occasion I had to call police to the train, as I had been assaulted by a drunk in 1st. Local police turned up, and the drunk said he wanted me charged with assault (he had tried to stop me closing the train door, and got his hand caught in it . Plenty of witnesses to confirm that).
Local PC said he were going to arrest both of us, until I said "No problem" turned around to the Customer Host and said "Tell the 200 people on the train that we're not going any further and they will have to walk home as it's the last train. Make sure to tell them if they wish to complain they can do so to the police officer on the platform as he's the reason they are going nowhere". He changed his mind pretty quickly!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I have to say, this is an interesting question, and I will check it out as there are a number of concepts involved. It can't be assault, but it could be battery. However, I'm pretty sure that the chances are weighted strongly in the conductors favour.

 

[Flamingo]

You'd have to hope the passenger in question has not recently had an injection (particularly a BCG one) or blood transfusion where you're prodding them for it to do no damage.

I don't see your point.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I don't see your point.

I imagine he's hinting at the thin skull rule.

I've just remembered that we have a BTP copper on here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/member.php?u=10434.

 

[Flamingo]

I imagine he's hinting at the thin skull rule.

I've just remembered that we have a BTP copper on here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/member.php?u=10434.

Well, a BCG injection is a vacine against TB, and blood transfusions are not relevant to anything. Also, I usually don't prod them in the head, or does anybody else I know of.:?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Well, a BCG injection is a vacine against TB, and blood transfusions are not relevant to anything. Also, I usually don't prod them in the head, or does anybody else I know of.:?

Well, yes, which is why I was slightly confused as well. For reference, the thin skull rule has little to do with thin skulls. A better description would have been take your victim as you find him: http://lawiki.org/index.php?title=Thin_skull_rule

 

[pemma]

I don't see your point.

In the instances I described a not very hard prod in the arm could result in bleeding. Someone who's recently had a BCG injection will have an ulcer like this under their clothing: http://www.coldbacon.com/mdtruth/pics/cutaneousanthrax-ulcer.jpg and they won't be wearing a T-shirt saying that and they may well be the passenger who has a ticket but has fallen asleep on the train.

Ralphchadkirk was implying that ticket clippers can harmlessly be used to prod.

 

[b0b]

I don't get that people think its acceptable - or saying passengers have given "implied consent" - to poke/prod sleeping passengers with any item, especially if the conductor is lacking suspicion that the passenger has not paid the fare.

From what I've seen on my line, the conductor banging the clippers near the passenger - like on the side of the seat - is enough to wake honest passengers up, and police seem to be called when that doesn't work.

 

[HugePilchard]

Do TOCs not issue guidance to their guards on sleeping passengers?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

In the instances I described a not very hard prod in the arm could result in bleeding. Someone who's recently had a BCG injection will have an ulcer like this under their clothing: http://www.coldbacon.com/mdtruth/pics/cutaneousanthrax-ulcer.jpg and they won't be wearing a T-shirt saying that and they may well be the passenger who has a ticket but has fallen asleep on the train.

If they've got an ulcer like that, I'd run for the next carriage and call the Health Protection Agency. That ulcer is caused by anthrax.

Ralphchadkirk was implying that ticket clippers can harmlessly be used to prod.

Which they can.

Why isn't it right that a conductor should be able to wake someone by prodding them?

 

[causton]

I don't get that people think its acceptable - or saying passengers have given "implied consent" - to poke/prod sleeping passengers with any item, especially if the conductor is lacking suspicion that the passenger has not paid the fare.

From what I've seen on my line, the conductor banging the clippers near the passenger - like on the side of the seat - is enough to wake honest passengers up, and police seem to be called when that doesn't work.

And when the police wake them up and they have a valid ticket? I'm sure police time isn't cheap!

Perhaps a tap on the shoulder instead of the arm to lower the risk of the pain of a recent injection in that area

 

[ralphchadkirk]

From what I've seen on my line, the conductor banging the clippers near the passenger - like on the side of the seat - is enough to wake honest passengers up, and police seem to be called when that doesn't work.

Can you imagine what the charge would be if a officer was called out to wake a passenger? I can - wasting police time!

 

[b0b]

And when the police wake them up and they have a valid ticket? I'm sure police time isn't cheap!

As I've said, I've only seen it twice where the clippers banged near a passenger didn't work:

once, the passenger suddenly woke up near the last station, got off the train and was met by police;

the second time, the passenger did not wake up and was taken off the train and put on a stretcher and given medical assistance.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

In first aid, after danger, you check response. You shake the person, hit them gently or whatever on their shoulder in order to see if they respond. If they do, then they were asleep, if not, then they are unconscious. Perhaps this should be classed as battery as well?