Snow, and what happens if it comes?

[Carntyne]

If snow comes, people panic, say the railway grinds to a halt and "SNOW CHAOS" headline start appearing in the media.

Back in the real world, the railway runs normally for the most part.

 

[al78]

I remember the winter of 1962/63. There hasn't been a proper winter since.

Using a 1 in 200 year event as a definition of a "proper" winter is a bit ridiculous. It is like saying we haven't had a proper windstorm since October 1987, we haven't had a decent summer since 1976.

In any case we have had severe (by UK climatology) winter months. January 1987, December 2010 and January 2010, plus several others in the 1970's and 1980's.

 

[mcmad]

If snow comes, people panic, say the railway grinds to a halt and "SNOW CHAOS" headline start appearing in the media.

Back in the real world, the railway runs normally for the most part.

If a single flake lands south of the Watford Gap, people panic, say the railway grinds to a halt and "SNOW CHAOS" headline start appearing in the media.

Further North, life runs normally for the most part

Fixed that for you

 

[al78]

If snow comes, people panic, say the railway grinds to a halt and "SNOW CHAOS" headline start appearing in the media.

Back in the real world, the railway runs normally for the most part.

Hmm, I'm not sure about that. I think in December 2010 and January 2010 there was significant disruption.

 

[al78]

Although the "wrong type of snow" is a famous explanation from BR days which many laugh at, isn’t there some truth in it? Due to our climate, we get a damp, heavy, solid type of snow which freezes to things and is particularly hard to shift, whereas in dryer and colder places eg Norway & Switzerland it’s a lot easier to plough snow away. Or am I wrong about this?

I believe it is the other way around. Normally snow in the UK falls at near or slightly above the freezing point, so it is wet and sticky, ideal for making snowmen and snowballs. Back in the late 80's/early 90's we had spells of strong easterly winds advecting very cold air from the continent over the North sea, which picked up moisture which then fell as snow when it reached the eastern UK shores. The cold air well below freezing resulted in snow that was dry and powdery, rather than the heavy wet flakes we normally get. The dry powdery snow easily blows around in the wind and from turbulence from passing vehicles like trains, and can get blown into vents, where it melts and shorts out electrical components.

 

[SteveP29]

The winters of 81/82 & 85/86 were very bad from recollection. Both had snow from early November on and off, with heavy December, January and February snow. and sub zeroes.

The Big Freeze of 1987
The street I lived in (where my parents still live) was virtually cut off. Its a cul de sac of 17 bungalows on a slope that drops about 25ft in about 150ft.
The bin truck couldn't get down to empty bins, nobody could get their cars out, my parents had a Volvo 245dl estate and had to park it on the drive of the old woman who lived on the corner of the entrance to the street from the main estate road because even that couldn't get through the snow.
Then of course, because no cars were moving up and down the street, the snow didn't clear or get compacted, then it froze when the temperature dropped each night.
It snowed for something like 7 days, but the last of it wasn't gone till about 12 weeks later.
We still went to school btw, my parents and all my mates parents still all went to work, compared to the dustings we get these days that immediately shut schools

 

[sprinterguy]

In the last few years, we've started to see the service being cancelled in advance when bad weather (normally high winds) are expected. So I suspect the same would happen if there was heavy snow forecast with people being told not to travel and the service being severely curtailed in advance rather than risking trains getting stuck in the snow.

In some ways that seems a pity, as at one time the railway seemed to be quite adept at breaking out the ploughs and carrying on as best they could until things became thoroughly stuck. No risk of a trainload of passengers being stranded in the middle of nowhere, though, if you don't run any trains in the first place, I suppose.

I found it somewhat bemusing that the UK railways seem to have such major problems with snow a few years back while travelling on the Montreux Oberland Bernois Railway in Switzerland in late December; where the seemingly lightweight, narrow gauge train had no difficulty clawing its way up to the Saanenmoser Pass at 4,000 feet on gradients as steep as 1 in 13.7 (rack assisted, mind you!) in heavy snow (and the ski resorts in full flow) and keeping to schedule. It doesn't seem to bother the overhead electrification, either. I guess that the infrastructure is just better acclimatized to contend with heavy snowfall on an annual basis over there.

 

[Carntyne]

Hmm, I'm not sure about that. I think in December 2010 and January 2010 there was significant disruption.

Almost 8 years ago.

 

[DarloRich]

Try here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...t-machines-vehicles/seasonal-track-treatment/

That should give you all the information you need

( can anyone tell me how to quote?)

Are there any independent snow ploughs left? I can remember the two that used to be parked up at Salisbury in the 1980's but I've not seen any for years.

of course there are snow ploughs. How else do you suggest a big snow drift is cleared off the track?

There are currently 21 Independent Drift Ploughs, 8 patrol Ploughs and 2 snow blowers. Numbers and locations attached.

View attachment 39426 View attachment 39427

that isnt up to date

 

[Mag_seven]

Today at the slightest hint of heavy snowfall the met office will issue an amber or even a red warning and we will all be told to stay indoors. We are "generation snowflake" indeed.

 

[furnessvale]

Yes I think you are wrong actually. When that now famous expression was made, it referred to a very fine, powdery type of snow which managed to enter locomotive engine rooms through the bodyside grilles and stop them working.
It's very often taken out of context or mis-quoted now!

It also affected large parts of mainland Europe, a fact glossed over by the press in their frenzy of railway knocking.

 

[sprinterguy]

Weren't the snow blowers brought in during Chris Greens time & painted in NSE livery?

The first Beilhack snow blower was built for the Scottish region and allocated to Inverness from 1980. Chris Green procured a dedicated second example for Network Southeast in the late eighties, having reportedly borrowed the Scotrail example on occasion in previous winters.

 

[al78]

Almost 8 years ago.

Those are just the ones I can remember. There might have been disruption in February 2011 and March 2013 as well, both of which had cold snowy spells, but I didn't use the trains in those months.

The rail network copes fine with a very light snowfall up to about two inches or so. It is when it gets much more than that things go tits up. It is not surprising, given that heavy snowfall in lowland SE does not happen very often, and it is not economically sensible to shell out significant sums of money to increase the robustness of the network for the one year in 10 that we might get a snowfall worth getting excited about. It is unrealistic to expect the UK infrastructure to be as resilient as countries that have much harsher climates.

It is ironic that someone pulled out the North South issue again. When I lived in Salford there was hardly any significant snowfall over the 20 years I lived there, and when it did fall there was disruption, on the roads and railways. There isn't a lot of difference between northern and southern UK, any system which experiences conditions outside the range for which they are designed is going to experience problems. Even northern Scotland has experienced weather related disruption from snow, and windstorms.

 

[al78]

Today at the slightest hint of heavy snowfall the met office will issue an amber or even a red warning and we will all be told to stay indoors. We are "generation snowflake" indeed.

Incorrect. The Met Office has specific criteria for issuing the warnings, a red warning is only issued if there is a significant threat to life and property, it is very rare for one to be issued. The last time I remember it being issued was December 2015 with the windstorm and severe flooding in NW England.

 

[mikey9]

Yes theres still some in inverness think there is some at fort william too also im sure theres still a few around the uk network

Yup - two still here in Inverness

 

[bramling]

If snow comes, people panic, say the railway grinds to a halt and "SNOW CHAOS" headline start appearing in the media.

Back in the real world, the railway runs normally for the most part.

I’d place a small wager that if we do have snow this year the effect in the south will be quite severe, particularly on DC lines. Simply because there hasn’t been major snow in the London area for a few years now, so there will be a greater than normal level of unfamiliarity with it and more importantly what to do.

All it can take is one link in the chain to break and the railway can go from running fairly well to being totally up the wall.

It doesn’t even have to be the railway. The road system is vulnerable too. A blockage, for example an accident, near a major train crew depot again is all that’s needed. A string of drivers not booking on, a train then gets put in a siding and gets stuck halfway in or the points don’t go back normal behind it, the conductor rail freezes because things have stood still for a few minutes, someone has a SPAD at a signal they never normally get held at, derailment in a depot because some hand worked points haven’t been fully thrown due to ice, someone slipped on a non de-iced depot walkway and now union reps saying that depot shouldn’t be used, nowhere to put trains because there’s a possession out to de-ice your local depot, etc etc etc.

You can guarantee that everything will take longer too simply because even if things on the face of it are running ok, you can bet that behind the scenes a lot is going on so phone lines are tied up, calls take longer to get answered, etc.

 

[tsr]

I remember only a couple of winters ago, I almost had to cancel a couple of overnight 377 workings at about 3am because the snow and ice and other mush around conductor rail (with the heaters on, where installed) was causing sizeable jets of sparks from beneath the sole bar to above the cant rail over the windows, but the units turned out to have coped very well because the power systems had been engineered sufficiently well. You just couldn’t have passed track workers or crowded platforms at any sort of speed with that happening, or somebody would have been hurt. Luckily the next morning warmed things up somewhat.

Since the recent harsh winter of December 2010 - the last time a red warning was issued for snow and ice in the SE - a lot of investment has actually been put in place to help the Home Counties cope a bit better. Again ironically, Southern actually now have some of the best of these plans, complete with weather stations, remote monitoring of traction supplies onboard trains, good liaison with NR for MPV de-icer runs, winter action plans at all staffed stations, etc. etc.

Some stuff is a bit overkill - I believe Gatwick Airport (airport rather than station side) have a three-figure number of winter treatment vehicles, some of which barely get used despite the airfield’s reasonable size, and we perhaps almost need another harsh winter to justify maintenance, let alone replacement.

It is possible to run in very cold, snowy conditions, but as bramling said, you can still end up with a ripple effect of disruption - just caused by different things than the norm. It doesn’t take much of any sort of problem to bring the South East to a halt.

 

[randyrippley]

The Big Freeze of 1987
The street I lived in (where my parents still live) was virtually cut off. Its a cul de sac of 17 bungalows on a slope that drops about 25ft in about 150ft.
The bin truck couldn't get down to empty bins, nobody could get their cars out, my parents had a Volvo 245dl estate and had to park it on the drive of the old woman who lived on the corner of the entrance to the street from the main estate road because even that couldn't get through the snow.
Then of course, because no cars were moving up and down the street, the snow didn't clear or get compacted, then it froze when the temperature dropped each night.
It snowed for something like 7 days, but the last of it wasn't gone till about 12 weeks later.
We still went to school btw, my parents and all my mates parents still all went to work, compared to the dustings we get these days that immediately shut schools

Only seven days?
There are members here who remember 1962-63 and that seemed to snow for close to three months. I lived in Somerset and my dads car was buried outside the house for weeks. And we had it easy compared with elsewhere

 

[randyrippley]

This is how they used to do it. Apologies if you've seen these films before

Snowdrift at Bleath Gill (1955)

Snow (1963)

 

[najaB]

This website is the best and most level headed around for short and long term weather forecasts.
http://www.gavsweathervids.com/

I go with http://www.theweatheroutlook.com - pretty accurate seasonal forecasts in my experience.

 

[randyrippley]

....of course there are snow ploughs. How else do you suggest a big snow drift is cleared off the track?

Given that we've had no real winters for years, and the cost cutting due to sectorisation / privatisation I had a feeling there was a good chance they may all have been scrapped

 

[Bookd]

I was going to recommend Snowdrift at Bleath Gill but I was beaten to it - we don't seem to have that weather now, and modern trains would not take kindly to being set on fire to that them out. (Also the line in question is long gone, but that is another matter).

 

[ScottDarg]

Yes theres still some in inverness think there is some at fort william too also im sure theres still a few around the uk network

There's usually 2 or 3 at the DRS depot in Motherwell. There's also two snowblowers (https://flic.kr/p/cdG4tQ Not my pic) at the SB Rail facility in Rutherglen.

 

[Alfie1014]

The Big Freeze of 1987
The street I lived in (where my parents still live) was virtually cut off. Its a cul de sac of 17 bungalows on a slope that drops about 25ft in about 150ft.
The bin truck couldn't get down to empty bins, nobody could get their cars out, my parents had a Volvo 245dl estate and had to park it on the drive of the old woman who lived on the corner of the entrance to the street from the main estate road because even that couldn't get through the snow.
Then of course, because no cars were moving up and down the street, the snow didn't clear or get compacted, then it froze when the temperature dropped each night.
It snowed for something like 7 days, but the last of it wasn't gone till about 12 weeks later.
We still went to school btw, my parents and all my mates parents still all went to work, compared to the dustings we get these days that immediately shut schools

1987 was my worse winter that I can remember (being too young in 1962/3). I lived in the Thames Estuary in Essex about 20 miles from central London at the time and we had the deepest and most extensive snow cover I've experienced. About 12-18 inches level but at times during that week drifting much deeper when the Easterly winds set in.

I remember coming home from work one evening and getting off a bus (a London Country Leyland National I think) to walk the last couple of hundred yards down side roads to home through drifts up to my waist. Yet little more than 4-5 miles further west towards London there was barely a covering! That said whilst there were delays BR's LTS route got me to and from work every day, though on the Monday many of the Mk1 EMUs (302/5/8s) that had been berthed at Shoeburyness over the weekend were encased in snow below the solebar and there were many flashovers as the ice melted. That said some coleagues who lived in deeper Essex such as Clacton and in eastern Kent never made it in to work in London all week. A very bizarre time and I remember seeing TV news footage of helicopters dropping bread to residents in the Southend area!

 

[a_c_skinner]

Misc. replies:

Until recently Redhill had a snowplough siding, I think it has gone in the remodelling this year, so expect a serious winter.

IIRC it was dry powder snow that was the wrong sort, it isn't common. I've been over the Hardanger on the Bergen railway in Norway, from the back of the train you see the locomotive vanishing as it ploughs through smaller drifts that have accumulated since the blower plough went through. (

for any trainspotters on here).

If things get really bad the old Percy Main plough is in the Shildon Museum.

Finally I am told that the company that did the Daily Express weather news became unable to sell serious meterology because of the 804 years of sensationalism and now concentrates on weather journalism.

 

[Busaholic]

Only seven days?
There are members here who remember 1962-63 and that seemed to snow for close to three months. I lived in Somerset and my dads car was buried outside the house for weeks. And we had it easy compared with elsewhere

It might have been 1961/2 rather than 1962/3, because that was bad in the SE too but not so long-lived, but the sea froze at Margate.

 

[14xxDave]

What, no plough at Tyne Yard? Oh hang on we Geordies just put our winter coat on!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

81 was bad , -17 on some nights with packed and frozen snow around for a while - as an act of desperation to get away a much needed Felixstowe - Swansea liner away - we had 4x37's on it to get the traction - this after we had burned several cardboard boxes under the train to get frozen brake pads "warmed up" - (ironically the containers had come through the St Laurence seaway before the big freeze) - it got there in 48 hours , via Brum as the Western would not take specials east of Parkway. The cold was fiendish, for weeks - we all got fed up with unfreezing points etc , day after day.

87 I recall well - as "acting" ASM Wimbledon - in very dangerous circumstances , I went and rescued a gapped LU "C" stock on the approach to Wimbledon which had been tripped by a build up of frozen snow , then stalled across the junction. In the dark - scraping the con rail was a bit challenging - and the arcing when the veteran motorman applied power was awesome. But it moved.

Previously - the points had gone at Motspur Park and the local railman and I dug them out - in almost Russian blizzard like conditions. I blocked the line first of course. Never - ever - have I been so cold. We were pretty overwhelmed - but got people home - my best was arranging a lift on the Snowplough to Waterloo for a young man and his mother , who had walked several miles to the station - and they had an exam at the Royal College of Music. No passenger trains around , so I stopped the plough and put him and his mother in the warm 33. Were they impressed ! - and he passed !

There are MML stories later on - but should save them for my book , if I ever get to write it....

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say it won't be a bad winter. Notably three of the worst four winters in my living memory have been those following major volcanic eruptions Mount St Helens (winter 80/81), Pinatubo (91) and the unrpounceable one in Iceland (2010). Admittedly winter 86/87 doesn't fit the pattern.

However my most recent experience of snow was a shambles. Trains and planes cancelled, roads in complete gridlock, and it was only about 5cm of the stuff. Location: Geneva, January this year.

 

[DarloRich]

Given that we've had no real winters for years, and the cost cutting due to sectorisation / privatisation I had a feeling there was a good chance they may all have been scrapped

They are used almost every year. Most often in Scotland, TPE routes/Peak Forest, Whitby branch, Wales.