Snow Hill - solving Birmingham's capacity crisis/

[Waverley125]

New Street suffers the serious problem of being both the centre of an intensively-served urban rail network and a key intercity hub. Although HS2 will alleviate some pressure there, the difficult of fitting regular non-stop intercity services into an 'every 10 minutes' local timetable will always cause difficulties.

To this end, an idea at Snow Hill. Obviously the station itself requires a significant rebuild - hopefully after Midland Metro is removed - to remove the horrible carpark, rebuild the concourse on its old location and drastically upgrade the amount of passenger facilities provided.

However, some further ideas.

1. Rebuild the platforms to provide westward-facing bays at Snow Hill. This would allow Worcester & Hereford semi-fasts to be rerouted north of Droitwich Spa to run via Kidderminster & Stourbridge Junction.

2. Build a new chord between Bordesley station & the Camp Hill line. This would allow services to Kings Norton via Moseley to run once again, while not adding on the pressure to the Eastern Approach at New Street.

3. Re-Open the line to Wolverhampton. This would require moving the Midland Metro, but the Soho Road is easily wide enough to allow for a decent level of segregation while maintaining current journey times. Stations at West Bromwich, Bilston & Wednesbury to be retained.

This would allow greater local services into Wolverhampton, and cross-city journeys towards Solihull & Stratford without needing to change between stations at New St.

It would also allow fast services from the NW to avoid New Street, by running via Snow Hill. Services for the South Coast would run straight on via the Chiltern Main Line to Banbury, services for the SW would run via the Camp Hill line to Kings Norton, and then to Cheltenham.

It would also allow locations north-west of Birmingham, such as Shrewsbury, Wrexham and Mid-Wales, to receive a direct London service via the Chiltern Main Line

 

[Old Hill Bank]

What you are suggesting is in my personal view is what should have happened 20 years ago but we are where we are and the chances of the metro being moved are next to zero, Wolverhampton Low Level has been sold off and the land connecting through to the Shrewsbury line built on. Snow Hill has a second entrance where the bays would have gone and there is the pathing problems between Snow Hill and Moor Street.

Just a quick brainstorm, happy to discuss further.

 

[causton]

Would this be achievable with the current 10 minute service provided? Sounds like a good idea but I can just see trains getting stuck behind an all-stations from Stourbridge!

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Would this be achievable with the current 10 minute service provided? Sounds like a good idea but I can just see trains getting stuck behind an all-stations from Stourbridge!

You could combine the Herefords with the Snow Hills but I would not endorse that as there would be a massive journey time hit for the longer distance passenger, trains would get to Kidderminster in the morning peak already full and what do you do with people wanting to travel from Worcester to Bromsgrove or University.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

The chord from the Camp Hill line to Bordesley is probably the most likely of these things to happen, maybe even a a chord from both ends of the bridge where the viaduct crosses over to allow trains coming from Water Orton/Tamworth/Nuneaton to terminate in the bay platforms at Moor Street but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. It's twenty years away at least.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Just out of interest did the stations at the Jewellery Quarter and The Hawthorns exist before the line was originally closed?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Yes and no. There was nothing at The Hawthorns so the closest stations to West Bromwich Albion would have been either Smethwick Rolfe Street, Smethwick West or Handsworth & Smethwick, all of which were about 15 minutes walking distance. Rolfe Street is still there, Smethwick West closed a year after they opened the adjacent Galton Bridge station in the mid 1990s and Handsworth & Smethwick is now a tram stop called Handsworth Booth Street.

There was a station by where the Jewellery Quarter is but it was called Hockley. It was a little bit further (as in a couple of hundred yards) away from Snow Hill. The station building was on the opposite corner of the graveyard the railway line shares a border with and you accessed it from Icknield Street rather than Vyse Street.

Icknield Street is now part of the Birmingham middle ring road but it used to be a Roman Road. I'm not entirely sure when pedestrians gave way to cars on that stretch of road, I'd imagine it was in the 60s or 70s though.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yes and no. There was nothing at the Hawthorns, there was a station by where the Jewellery Quarter was but it was called Hockley. It was a little bit further (as in a couple of hundred yards) away from Snow Hill. The station building was on the opposite corner of the graveyard the railway line shares a border with and you accessed it from Icknield Street rather than Vyse Street.

Icknield Street is now part of the Birmingham middle ring road but it used to be a Roman Road. I'm not entirely sure when pedestrians gave way to cars on that stretch of road, I'd imagine it was in the 60s or 70s though.

Thanks for that. I travelled along the line for the first time last Friday when we visited the SVR Steam Gala. It's almost a miracle that the track bed survived intact!

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Just out of interest did the stations at the Jewellery Quarter and The Hawthorns exist before the line was originally closed?

On the current route from Snow Hill we had Hockley, Soho and Winson Green, Handsworth and Smethwick, Halfords Halt (where the new Hawthorns is) then left through what is now the new Smethwick Galton Bridge and on through Smethwick Junction and Smethwick West station (closed and replaced by Galton Bridge).

 

[RichmondCommu]

On the current route from Snow Hill we had Hockley, Soho and Winson Green, Handsworth and Smethwick, Halfords Halt (where the new Hawthorns is) then left through what is now the new Smethwick Galton Bridge and on through Smethwick Junction and Smethwick West station (closed and replaced by Galton Bridge).

Travelling through to Kidderminster I think we spotted the remains of Smethwick West station as the platform still appears to exist.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Travelling through to Kidderminster I think we spotted the remains of Smethwick West station as the platform still appears to exist.

The platforms at Smethwick West have never been demolished, it had to stay open for about a year after the project was "completed" to allow for a token stop until the formal closure paperwork was signed off.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

West and Galton Bridge had to be the closest two stations to each other in the country for the time they were still open. Railmiles says they are 11 chains apart. I think that means (in theory) that you could have one cab of a Pendolino on the platform at Galton Bridge and the other cab would be in the platform at Smethwick West.

 

[causton]

West and Galton Bridge had to be the closest two stations to each other in the country for the time they were still open. Railmiles says they are 11 chains apart. I think that means (in theory) that you could have one cab of a Pendolino on the platform at Galton Bridge and the other cab would be in the platform at Smethwick West.

Would be interesting if there are 12 car trains. Just have one call with "You must be in the front coach for Smethwick West. You must be in the rear coach for Smethwick Galton Bridge."!

 

[AndyW33]

Unless my memory is seriously at fault, The Hawthorns did exist before Snow Hill closed, it was called The Hawthorns Halt, didn't appear in timetables, and was served only when there were WBA home games. The GWR was fond of putting in platforms where their lines ran close to sports venues, just think of Newbury Racecourse and Cheltenham Racecourse.
Once the Stourbridge line services were diverted to New Street and the Wolverhampton LL trains reduced to peak-only it was closed as there was nothing that could make match-day calls.

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't think we are doing the OP justice (although the reminiscences are interesting). Actually the history shews that indeed times change and station location needs to change.

Just one point on the OP's view that HS2 will relieve New St. I think long-term, maybe short-term, HS2 will create extra pressure as through services from (say) Cardiff to Leeds take the HS2 line. The quandary in my mind is whether such though services will end up stopping at New St and (adjacent to) Curzon St. We seem to be creating extra and duplicate stations all over the place (Leeds, Sheffield, London, Toton). It's as though we still had competition on the railways. Snow Hill is convenient for business commuters and because services can run on to Moor St, makes for a reasonable connection with Curzon St, but not quite as good with New St. Perhaps it's New St that ought to have been demolished?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't think we are doing the OP justice (although the reminiscences are interesting). Actually the history shews that indeed times change and station location needs to change.

Just one point on the OP's view that HS2 will relieve New St. I think long-term, maybe short-term, HS2 will create extra pressure as through services from (say) Cardiff to Leeds take the HS2 line. The quandary in my mind is whether such though services will end up stopping at New St and (adjacent to) Curzon St. We seem to be creating extra and duplicate stations all over the place (Leeds, Sheffield, London, Toton). It's as though we still had competition on the railways. Snow Hill is convenient for business commuters and because services can run on to Moor St, makes for a reasonable connection with Curzon St, but not quite as good with New St. Perhaps it's New St that ought to have been demolished?

Howard you've hit the nail on the head here! If the Goverment really wanted to spend serious money on infrastructure it would build additional low level platforms at New Street. That way we could also run HS2 services into New Street. I'm sorry but I think we're going to get found out with Curzon Street.

Last Friday I transferred from New Street to Moor Street to visit the SVR Steam Gala. Carting large bags across Birmingham in order to reach HS2 is not going to go down very well in my opinion.

 

[AndyW33]

I don't think we are doing the OP justice

Fair point - so the first step is the return of Snow Hill Platform 4 to National Rail use in 2015 when the work to divert the Metro outside the station and onto the road to reach New Street is completed. What changes to services are planned or will be possible given this 25% extra station capacity?
But what extra could be done on top of this if a way could be found to reinstate the bays? I share the doubts about being able to evict the Metro from the Wolverhampton line trackbed for enough of its length to run any useful heavy rail services to anywhere. That really means that Snow Hill will always have double track approaches from each end. Is there enough capacity on the Stourbridge line alone to make effective use of next year's four through platforms plus four bays (which is what once existed).
The tunnel from Moor Street is steeply graded and as it is largely cut and cover can't be widened without massive demolition. Maybe electrification would allow an increased frequency through the tunnel, but we won't see this until CP6 at the very earliest.

 

[eisenach]

Hereford trains used to terminate at Snow Hill when the went via Stourbridge Junction. It was crap for connections to other parts of the network (Leeds, for example) which leave from New Street.
So glad they're back in New Street.

 

[chris89]

Howard you've hit the nail on the head here! If the Goverment really wanted to spend serious money on infrastructure it would build additional low level platforms at New Street. That way we could also run HS2 services into New Street. I'm sorry but I think we're going to get found out with Curzon Street.

Last Friday I transferred from New Street to Moor Street to visit the SVR Steam Gala. Carting large bags across Birmingham in order to reach HS2 is not going to go down very well in my opinion.

To jump on the last bit. One reason if i have luggage or see girlfriend off at New Street, I just change at Galton Bridge as a lot easier then having luggage in tow for myself.

Chris

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Hereford trains used to terminate at Snow Hill when the went via Stourbridge Junction. It was crap for connections to other parts of the network (Leeds, for example) which leave from New Street.
So glad they're back in New Street.

But when the tram runs from Snow Hill to New Street next year then perhaps bringing the Hereford trains back into Snow Hill will be a less painful option?

 

[Class172]

However, some further ideas.

1. Rebuild the platforms to provide westward-facing bays at Snow Hill. This would allow Worcester & Hereford semi-fasts to be rerouted north of Droitwich Spa to run via Kidderminster & Stourbridge Junction.

That would not go down well with passengers since there is a large proportion of people who travel along the Bromsgrove-Droitwich-Worcester-Malvern axis, and in addition a very large number of people travel to University station.

Travelling through to Kidderminster I think we spotted the remains of Smethwick West station as the platform still appears to exist.

It has to be one of the most intact closed stations, with platforms, lighting and some signage still there.
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But when the tram runs from Snow Hill to New Street next year then perhaps bringing the Hereford trains back into Snow Hill will be a less painful option?

For reasons just given, no.

 

[eps200]

Does a full map exist of the current set up though brum with choke points marked?

The tunnel between snow hill and moor street is double track right? same as the approaches so snow hill, so why would anything terminate there?

 

[WestCountry]

Does a full map exist of the current set up though brum with choke points marked?

The tunnel between snow hill and moor street is double track right? same as the approaches so snow hill, so why would anything terminate there?

From the north, because there are only two through platforms and no north-facing bays at Moor Street, and nowhere convenient to terminate trains immediately south of there (Tyseley might do?).

 

[moggie]

One train an hour (not enough) from Hereford, Worcester and Droitwich via Bromsgrove does not create a capacity issue at New St. That one train an hour is almost full leaving Droitwich throughout the day yet those departing for the Kidderminster line leave virtually empty.

That's because the vast majority of people don't want to spend 50mins getting to Snow Hill but 35min journey to New St where they do want to be - thanks.

On those few occasions when there's a bridge bash on the Bromsgrove route and the trains divert via Galton Jcn the queue of trains trundling along one behind the other illustrates perfectly that you cannot run a two fast services (LM and Chiltern), a semi fast and an all stations on one line with no passing points.

Thankfully with Bromsgrove station works commencing which will enhance opportunities to change into the Cross City line the opportunity of a better service rather than a worse will prevail - or the peasants will revolt.

 

[Geezertronic]

Last Friday I transferred from New Street to Moor Street to visit the SVR Steam Gala. Carting large bags across Birmingham in order to reach HS2 is not going to go down very well in my opinion.

I presume that there has been a distance increase between the two whilst New Street is being refurbished and the old exit is closed, but it's hardly transferring "across Birmingham". When the New Street refurbishment has finished I would hope the previous exit is in place.

I wouldn't have thought the distance is any further than that between Euston and St Pancras/Kings Cross

 

[sprinterguy]

The quandary in my mind is whether such though services will end up stopping at New St and (adjacent to) Curzon St.

Well, no. HS2 Curzon Street will be a self-contained station with no platforms on the existing approach to New Street.
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I wouldn't have thought the distance is any further than that between Euston and St Pancras/Kings Cross

Even at the present time, with only the "North" end entrances open, I would suggest that it is a good deal less than the walk between Euston and Kings Cross/St Pancras (Which in itself isn't a great distance). The old Smallbrook Queensway entrance will indeed be reopening once the refurbishment is complete, shortening the distance further.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I presume that there has been a distance increase between the two whilst New Street is being refurbished and the old exit is closed, but it's hardly transferring "across Birmingham". When the New Street refurbishment has finished I would hope the previous exit is in place.

I wouldn't have thought the distance is any further than that between Euston and St Pancras/Kings Cross

I think you're forgetting two potential problems here. First of all in terms of New Street to Moor Street you need to know where you're going. Euston to St Pancras / Kings Cross is simple; straight down the Euston Road. From my experience New Street to Moor Street is less obvious.

Secondly, ignore the weather at your peril! Dragging heavy bags in the pouring rain is not fun, especially if your not sure where you're heading! At least with Euston - Kings Cross, if you have the time you can take the Tube.
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Well, no. HS2 Curzon Street will be a self-contained station with no platforms on the existing approach to New Street.

Huge mistake in my opinion but hey whatever happened to joined up transport thinking?

 

[Class172]

I do think, as was briefly mentioned in the thread earlier, that if enough funds were made available, that a new underground line would be built under the city centre, which the Cross City services can be moved onto, retaining connections with the main station, but reducing congestion and saving space.

 

[HowardGWR]

Well, no. HS2 Curzon Street will be a self-contained station with no platforms on the existing approach to New Street.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even at the present time, with only the "North" end entrances open, I would suggest that it is a good deal less than the walk between Euston and Kings Cross/St Pancras (Which in itself isn't a great distance). The old Smallbrook Queensway entrance will indeed be reopening once the refurbishment is complete, shortening the distance further.

This is fast becoming a scandal of lack of joined up thinking. If anyone thinks walking down the Euston Road is an acceptable interchange, or the miles of tube corridors, I suggest the plot has been lost. We have an HS2 sub thread for those developments, but I consider the present arrangements at Brum, irrespective of the planned HS2 station, to be a nonsense. It is not as if the present stations are worth anything architecturally to preserve (and I include Moor St), two of which, New St and Snow Hill, had been obliterated by nasty 60s concrete.

 

[transmanche]

If anyone thinks walking down the Euston Road is an acceptable interchange, or the miles of tube corridors, I suggest the plot has been lost.

However, walking down the Euston Road is seriously unlikely to be the interchange. Neither is negotiating "miles of tube corridors".

It's likely that Crossrail 2's Euston-St Pancras station will form the connection - with travelators connecting up Euston, St Pancras and King's Cross.