Solution reached to save Day Travelcards

[MikeWh]

I think, with hindsight, that this hits the nail on the head:

TfL knew that the TOCs were likely to lose out if Outboundary Day Travelcards were abolished so it was just a matter of waiting for RDG/DfT to do the sums and come back with a sensible compromise.

Also, the wording from RDGs press release re the increases is:

The proposal also includes a one-off price increase on Day Travelcards for travel from stations outside Zones 1-6 as part of a National Rail ticket from March 2024 (on average 3%) which will be in addition to any general regulated fares increase at the time.

This says to me that the TOCs (sorry DfT) will gain where the travelcard is sold further out.

 

[CyrusWuff]

This says to me that the TOCs (sorry DfT) will gain where the travelcard is sold further out.

Or it could be intended to make it revenue-neutral for the TOCs whilst increasing TfL's share.

 

[infobleep]

Smartcard systems at gatelines are not compatible with an extra set of restrictions.

Thanks

Yes, but the TOCs actually make the fare changes, presumably with the approval of DfT.

They do but they don't earn more themselves as far as I am aware.

 

[Dent]

Pessimistic view: Compromise = likely hike in price. As the contactless fares are capped to the Travelcard rates, everyone gets the fare increase.

Contactless fares are not capped at the Travelcars rates, the caps are already lower than Travelcards prices.

 

[JonathanH]

Contactless fares are not capped at the Travelcars rates, the caps are already lower than Travelcards prices.

Inboundary, yes. Some outboundary caps are higher than outboundary travelcard prices, others the same.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This says to me that the TOCs (sorry DfT) will gain where the travelcard is sold further out.

TfL’s issue was always that they weren’t getting enough revenue from the out-boundary Travelcard.

So clearly the fares rise will allow TfL to get more revenue whilst the TOC/DfT will keep the same amount of revenue as before.

TfL would seem to be the ones who gain from the increase, but that’s how it should be.

 

[Dent]

Inboundary, yes. Some outboundary caps are higher than outboundary travelcard prices, others the same.

So not capped at the Travelcard price, which was the premise of the post I replied to.

 

[fandroid]

I think, with hindsight, that this hits the nail on the head:

Also, the wording from RDGs press release re the increases is:

This says to me that the TOCs (sorry DfT) will gain where the travelcard is sold further out.

I have to acknowledge that Roger French, @busandtrainuser, (in collaboration with Geoff Marshall) provided me with the insight into how much TOCs are currently receiving from the Zones 1-6 portion of outboundary Travelcards. He found out that it was very likely that they would lose out significantly if Day Travelcards were withdrawn

 

[reddragon]

From TfL today

Update on Day Travelcards​

Hi xx,

We are writing to update you on the Day Travelcard.

We are pleased to confirm that, after close collaboration with the Rail Delivery Group (RDG), we have now been able to find a solution which allows the Day Travelcard to continue to be accepted on TfL services, while still meeting the terms of our funding agreement with Government. This means Day Travelcards can continue to be bought by customers as part of their train tickets to London.

This agreement follows a long period of negotiation by RDG representing train operators, TfL and the Department for Transport to find a solution which secures the future of the tickets while at the same time enabling us to meet our budget commitments.

The proposal also includes a one-off price increase on Day Travelcards bought outside Zones 1-6 as part of a National Rail ticket from March 2024 (on average 3 per cent) which will be in addition to any general regulated fares increase at the time.

Thank you for taking part in this discussion and sharing your views.



Kind regards,

Local Communities and Partnerships Team

Transport for London

 

[MikeWh]

So not capped at the Travelcard price, which was the premise of the post I replied to.

To be clear. Where contactless operates alone the caps do equal the anytime and off-peak travelcard prices, but not any super off-peak, evening or Sunday versions. Where Oyster is also valid outside the zones (particularly Gatwick) there are technical issues that mean that the caps are higher than the travelcard prices.

 

[Haywain]

This says to me that the TOCs (sorry DfT) will gain where the travelcard is sold further out.

I don't really understand why that would be the case. If the increase is only to the Travelcard component of the fare, then the length of journey makes no difference, and such fares are likely to increase by less than the 3% 'average' (average being a meaningless word because it isn't specified what it's an average of).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't really understand why that would be the case. If the increase is only to the Travelcard component of the fare, then the length of journey makes no difference, and such fares are likely to increase by less than the 3% 'average' (average being a meaningless word because it isn't specified what it's an average of).

There isn't a "Travelcard component" as such as the add-on isn't uniform. I read that as a 3% increase on the whole ticket, presumably all of which will go to TfL. Otherwise it would be a very small increase indeed and unlikely to make any inroad into TfL's £40m "black hole"!

I can see benefits in making it a calculable add-on more like PlusBus or Germany's CityTicket, but that doesn't seem to be the approach they have chosen.

 

[wokspotter]

Which is a minuscule amount of passengers.

That's okay then.Don't worry about the minority if they just fade into insignificance.

 

[wibble]

I read that as a 3% increase on the whole ticket, presumably all of which will go to TfL.

Presumably that's a 3% increase in addition to the March 2024 fares increase of "less than 9%"...

 

[MikeWM]

There isn't a "Travelcard component" as such as the add-on isn't uniform. I read that as a 3% increase on the whole ticket, presumably all of which will go to TfL.

If so then eg. they'll get almost £3 extra each time from a Cambridge->London 1st class anytime (currently £93.75), but only about 60p extra from a Cambridge->London weekends only GA-only (currently £21.70), and only 40p extra from the latter if a railcard is used.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if something like that is what happens, but not sure it makes a lot of sense. Maybe they're expecting the sums to even out somehow. (Or maybe they're just happy getting some more money, and did some quick sums on the back of an envelope to get something that seemed vaguely right)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably that's a 3% increase in addition to the March 2024 fares increase of "less than 9%"...

Yes, they've stated that it is.

(Or maybe they're just happy getting some more money, and did some quick sums on the back of an envelope to get something that seemed vaguely right)

I strongly suspect it's just that one, and out of the possible outcomes (e.g. reductions in validity or removal of Railcard discounts) this is probably very much least-worst.

For most people Anytime Day Travelcards are poor value anyway. A return to London Terminals and two contactless singles is going to be cheaper for most people and is what most business travellers do, and it's cheaper still if you have a railcard so can do single in, contactless Tube and discounted single back, which is what I always do when going to London for work these days. Only for those who are knocking about Zone 1 all day for work reasons, or who are going to somewhere in an outer zone via London, are generally going to find Anytime Day Travelcards good value.

 

[jon81uk]

That's okay then.Don't worry about the minority if they just fade into insignificance.

But there is a simple answer, just touch out from the journey and then do another journey instead of hanging around inside stations. But not to worry anymore as travelcard tickets will still be available.

 

[Haywain]

For most people Anytime Day Travelcards are poor value anyway.

Especially when it's the only available option to them for journeys that don't arrive into London until after 09:30.

 

[MikeWM]

I strongly suspect it's just that one, and out of the possible outcomes (e.g. reductions in validity or removal of Railcard discounts) this is probably very much least-worst.

Indeed. I've no issues with this resolution, indeed I'm pleasantly surprised. And, from my singlular data point at least, TfL do well out of it too, as I'll now keep going to London at the same frequency I currently do.

For most people Anytime Day Travelcards are poor value anyway.

Yes, agreed. I've never bought one!

 

[Haywain]

There isn't a "Travelcard component" as such as the add-on isn't uniform.

Whilst the add on may not be transparently uniform, there is a component, as demonstrated in this blog post (alluded to earlier by @fandroid), by @BusAndTrainUser.

 

[wokspotter]

But there is a simple answer, just touch out from the journey and then do another journey instead of hanging around inside stations. But not to worry anymore as travelcard tickets will still be available.

All ID 54 was saying was that it made his life simpler.End of.

But there is a simple answer, just touch out from the journey and then do another journey instead of hanging around inside stations. But not to worry anymore as travelcard tickets will still be available.

 

[Bikeman78]

Easy to budget on Oyster/contactless too, it’s never more than £14.90 for zones 1-6.

Until you make a mistake. I can think of two occasions. I got my money back on one occasion following a 10 minute phone conversation with TfL. The other time I couldn't be bothered.

 

[island]

Until you make a mistake. I can think of two occasions. I got my money back on one occasion following a 10 minute phone conversation with TfL. The other time I couldn't be bothered.

“Mistakes” happen with paper Travelcards too, like dropping them down the gap, or demagnetising them, or the like. And they’re harder to resolve than contactless issues, which can almost all be resolved online notwithstanding that it may be your personal preference to call.

 

[crablab]

For most people Anytime Day Travelcards are poor value anyway. A return to London Terminals and two contactless singles is going to be cheaper for most people and is what most business travellers do, and it's cheaper still if you have a railcard so can do single in, contactless Tube and discounted single back

I feel there have been a few sweeping statements by posters about this.

If one looks at the time restrictions on the GW, you'll note that unless you're willing to sit on an EL train for an hour extra back to Reading (until around 7pm when the restrictions end) then Anytime tickets are the only option. If you're travelling beyond Reading (eg. Newbury) I imagine this would be even more inconvenient.

For me personally, the difference in fare between an Anytime Return and Anytime TC is £5.30, so the peak time discounted Oyster fare of £2.80 (x2) would be more than the Travelcard difference.

But that's not primarily why I favour the retention of the Travelcard - I think it's a valuable example of good integrated ticketing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If your journey is Reading to London and you do it anything like often, a Network Railcard and using singles will save you a fortune. Only three trips will make it pay for itself.

 

[Bikeman78]

“Mistakes” happen with paper Travelcards too, like dropping them down the gap, or demagnetising them, or the like. And they’re harder to resolve than contactless issues, which can almost all be resolved online notwithstanding that it may be your personal preference to call.

I've only ever lost one ticket. Why would demagnetising the ticket be a serious problem? The date is still printed on the front. No chance of having to pay more.

 

[jon81uk]

I've only ever lost one ticket. Why would demagnetising the ticket be a serious problem? The date is still printed on the front. No chance of having to pay more.

And I’ve only had one issue with Oyster and none with contacless where I couldn’t resolve it myself on the website.

 

[Mike395]

The main problem with demagnetising Travelcards is that I'm increasingly finding gatelines at small LU stations entirely unattended so end up having to tailgate someone through.

 

[crablab]

If your journey is Reading to London and you do it anything like often, a Network Railcard and using singles will save you a fortune. Only three trips will make it pay for itself.

You'll need to show your working for:
- the increased discount between a 16-25 and a Network Railcard
- how £19.25 + £19.25 < £36.40

 

[Kite159]

The main problem with demagnetising Travelcards is that I'm increasingly finding gatelines at small LU stations entirely unattended so end up having to tailgate someone through.

Not just LU, but some Overground stations where the member of staff who is meant to monitoring the gateline playing hide away in a back office with no easy way to see where they are.