South Western Railway - a mixed start to life as a TOC?

[theironroad]

Eight strike days announced, July 26th, 28th & 31st, August 4th, 11th 18th & 31st, September 1st.

Talks seems to have broken down, RMT is reporting that SWR said they plan to run DOO on the whole network where no guard is available, not sure if that is true however.

I guess this is a recent internal info , as can't see a press release on the RMT website as yet...

 

[pompeyfan]

All stock, with the expection of 458s, have at least 1 GOP per carriage, sometimes for operational reasons dispatch must be from a certain part of the train, but in general there is very few reasons for crew not to be out walking the train. That said, it’s very busy on many services and it would be inconvenient for the passengers if the guard forced their way walking through the train, secondly, the uplift in train lengths due to the introduction of the 707s means it can take longer for the guard to walk through 10/12 coaches, especially if they’re checking tickets as well, so it may seem that you never actually see them.

 

[Matt Taylor]

You rarely see the Guard on SWR anyway either they are hiding on their cabin or they have to stay in the middle cab and operate the doors as there is no controls in the carriages. They should be walking the trains checking tickets and a single harmonised grade.

Sure about that? After leaving Portsmouth Harbour at 0724 on Tuesday it took me until approaching Surbiton to complete my retail duties, that's just shy of two hours during which I was either checking and issuing tickets or doing the doors, this morning on the same train it took me until just after Fanrborough. Your comment is nothing more than a generalisation and does you no favours.

 

[SteveP29]

Eight strike days announced, July 26th, 28th & 31st, August 4th, 11th 18th & 31st, September 1st.

Talks seems to have broken down, RMT is reporting that SWR said they plan to run DOO on the whole network where no guard is available, not sure if that is true however.

Just brilliant, 4th and 18th are when I'm travelling to Weymouth and back

 

[footprints]

Eight strike days announced, July 26th, 28th & 31st, August 4th, 11th 18th & 31st, September 1st.

Talks seems to have broken down, RMT is reporting that SWR said they plan to run DOO on the whole network where no guard is available, not sure if that is true however.

Sounds like a desperate last throw of the dice from the RMT before they have to re-ballot, where there has to be a significant possibility that they'll lose their mandate for strike action.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

I think your probably right however it all seems hush hush what is going on behind the scenes from both the RMT and SWR unlike what happened on GTR when both sides were throwing what happened out on a regular basis. My understanding is that they want the flexibility to run without a Guard in exceptional circumstances but surely this would be limited more to Metro services and not the whole network. I cannot see any indication they are talking about moving to a non safety critical ticket examiner role like on GTR/Scotrail. However if it that was the case I would fear for the Guards and question the unions intentions especially after the way they have left Southern OBS out to dry on their own and refused to recognise them for presumably political reasons and because they are now seen as lesser staff in their eyes as they are not full blown guards.

 

[CN75]

I think your probably right however it all seems hush hush what is going on behind the scenes from both the RMT and SWR unlike what happened on GTR when both sides were throwing what happened out on a regular basis. My understanding is that they want the flexibility to run without a Guard in exceptional circumstances but surely this would be limited more to Metro services and not the whole network. I cannot see any indication they are talking about moving to a non safety critical ticket examiner role like on GTR/Scotrail. However if it that was the case I would fear for the Guards and question the unions intentions especially after the way they have left Southern OBS out to dry on their own and refused to recognise them for presumably political reasons and because they are now seen as lesser staff in their eyes as they are not full blown guards.

The Southern OBS earn more than the guards and have jobs backed up by an ASLEF agreement to help them though, so the absence of the RMT hasn’t left them worse off.

Footprints is right - the RMT have weeks before the strike action mandate ends. These strikes are attention seeking as the gamble is that SWR will drop their stance at the negotiations in response. Nobody in the RMT leadership would want them to actually happen as the strike will collapse. Saturdays in summer to make it harder for SWR to put out a standby service on one hand and to appeal to guards to see the benefits in losing the day’s pay and not break the action. The government will cover SWR’s costs as usual on the strike days. SWR all along were in the stronger position and the RMT should have negotiated the offer whilst they had some leverage. Once again it will be ASLEF that cuts the terms of the deal on SWR with the RMT shut out from talks.

 

[The Ham]

The Southern OBS earn more than the guards and have jobs backed up by an ASLEF agreement to help them though, so the absence of the RMT hasn’t left them worse off.

Footprints is right - the RMT have weeks before the strike action mandate ends. These strikes are attention seeking as the gamble is that SWR will drop their stance at the negotiations in response. Nobody in the RMT leadership would want them to actually happen as the strike will collapse. Saturdays in summer to make it harder for SWR to put out a standby service on one hand and to appeal to guards to see the benefits in losing the day’s pay and not break the action. The government will cover SWR’s costs as usual on the strike days. SWR all along were in the stronger position and the RMT should have negotiated the offer whilst they had some leverage. Once again it will be ASLEF that cuts the terms of the deal on SWR with the RMT shut out from talks.

Can someone remind me, is this just an RMT dispute or are ASLEF striking too? From my perspective it appears to be just RMT.

Which leads to the question, if ASLEF aren't seeing it as a problem why is there a difference of opinion?

 

[WrongRoad]

ASLEF are waiting to see what the company propose the method of working will be when the new class 701 trains start running. New trains should be coming into service December 2019.

 

[TEW]

The Southern OBS earn more than the guards and have jobs backed up by an ASLEF agreement to help them though, so the absence of the RMT hasn’t left them worse off.

Footprints is right - the RMT have weeks before the strike action mandate ends. These strikes are attention seeking as the gamble is that SWR will drop their stance at the negotiations in response. Nobody in the RMT leadership would want them to actually happen as the strike will collapse. Saturdays in summer to make it harder for SWR to put out a standby service on one hand and to appeal to guards to see the benefits in losing the day’s pay and not break the action. The government will cover SWR’s costs as usual on the strike days. SWR all along were in the stronger position and the RMT should have negotiated the offer whilst they had some leverage. Once again it will be ASLEF that cuts the terms of the deal on SWR with the RMT shut out from talks.

The ballot results came out on March 20th 2018, so there are actually over 2 months left on the mandate. SWR didn't want to talk to the RMT for long periods, it is only recently after industrial action, and the threat of more industrial action, that real talks have actually taken place.

 

[footprints]

The ballot results came out on March 20th 2018, so there are actually over 2 months left on the mandate. SWR didn't want to talk to the RMT for long periods, it is only recently after industrial action, and the threat of more industrial action, that real talks have actually taken place.

Well, they've announced strike dates until September so clearly their current mandate doesn't run out before then. I wasn't suggesting it did. A re-ballot is obviously going to be imminent though beyond the announced dates.

If the eight days of action do go ahead, the likelihood of more staff voting no to further strike action probably increases, while the effectiveness of the action before then is likely to reduce.

All SWR need to do is let the RMT walk out on the various dates over the next couple of months and wait to see the outcome of the next vote which could bring the action to a close. This is last chance saloon for the RMT in this dispute yet still their preferred option seems to be militancy rather than negotiation and compromise in the best interests of their members.

 

[pompeyfan]

The minutes of the meetings are available to RMT members, and it would appear that to the average lay person RMT were willing to offer an inch if SWR offered an inch, however at the end of the last round of talks, SWR had no intention of giving up ground on their original proposals, and a cynic would say that SWR were just stalling the RMT members to prevent action during the early summer events such as Wimbledon.

 

[TEW]

I don't think anyone who has read the minutes would claim that "their preferred option seems to be militancy rather than negotiation and compromise in the best interests of their members".

They have clearly been trying to come to some kind of resolution, but it takes two sides to have negotiations.

 

[CN75]

There isn’t really a negotiation though, that’s the problem.

SWR have said they will employ a guard for every train. However, if that guard is delayed, absent, misplaced etc. then they want the train to run with passengers until the guard is back on board.

The RMT don’t want any passenger train to run without a guard at any time.

Therefore SWR or the RMT relents or the outcome is it being forced through anyway. The only thing that could be negotiated is how, where and when these changes would take place.

All the rest (who operates the doors, what the job content is, whether the guard is safety critical etc.) is secondary to if the train can run without the guard in an unplanned event.

 

[Steve Bray]

Last evening I travelled on 2O51 (1731 Waterloo - Richmond - Kingston - Wimbledon - Waterloo) from St Margaret's to Raynes Park. Though only 2 to 3 minutes late there was the dreaded "Special Announcement" which informed us that the train was going to run fast from New Malden to Waterloo. The reason given was congestion on the Slow Line, so the train would be running on the fast line. The National Rail App wasn't showing this change and none of the station displays had been changed, so we were taking the guard's word for it. Looking at the app and also Open Train Times subsequently, this train did appear to call at Raynes Park and Wimbledon (Platform 6 not 5), and also CLJ, though not Earlsfield. Is this information correct? And can trains switch from the Slow Lane to the Fast Line between New Malden and Raynes Park, in which case, why could it not have stopped at RAY? I've been turfed off this train before at New Malden and it's the least useful station to be forced off compared to Raynes Park and Wimbledon where far more passengers can change to other services.

So as per this earlier message, today's 2O51 running barely 2 minutes late at Kingston was again amended to run non-stop from New Malden to Waterloo due to alleged "congestion". And again, New Malden being a fairly useless station to be dumped at compared with stations further down the line. Why cannot these trains at least serve Raynes Park, where at least there are more trains stopping originating from Chessington and the Epsom line?

I didn't fare much better on my next train, the 1824 from Waterloo to Dorking. Again just a few minutes late departing Raynes Park, the train overshot the platform at Worcester Park by I would say 4 carriages. The passengers in the first 2 carriages could not disembark and they got off at Stoneleigh (extra stop). So that was delayed by around 10 minutes and on the approach to Epsom we were advised that the train was being taken out of service.

 

[TEW]

Running trains fast from useless locations has long been SWT/SWRs speciality. Trains from the Epsom line are frequently run fast from Motspur Park to Waterloo, when again Raynes Park would be far more convenient.

 

[nuts & bolts]

Running trains fast from useless locations has long been SWT/SWRs speciality. Trains from the Epsom line are frequently run fast from Motspur Park to Waterloo, when again Raynes Park would be far more convenient.

Overcrowding on a curved platform is probably the reason!

 

[TEW]

The reason given is because they don't want to import delays on the mainline, which frankly is a load of nonsense. The platforms at Raynes Park are not that dangerous, there are far worse ones out there.

 

[Malcolmffc]

ASLEF are waiting to see what the company propose the method of working will be when the new class 701 trains start running. New trains should be coming into service December 2019.

Boo, I was hoping the 701s would have started to enter service by this time next year. Another sweaty summer on the horrid air-conless 455s beckons.

 

[pompeyfan]

There is a rumour circulating that Desiro stock may switch over to driver release in an effort to reduce dwell times, but that no safeguards will be put in place such as correct side door enabling or coach by coach ASDO to mitigate stop shorts.

Also circulating is remote sign on (not sure how that works for commercial grade) and split guard shifts, which goes against the suggestion that SWR are looking at increasing the amount of full crew working.

As I say, all rumours and no evidence.

 

[The Ham]

There is a rumour circulating that Desiro stock may switch over to driver release in an effort to reduce dwell times, but that no safeguards will be put in place such as correct side door enabling or coach by coach ASDO to mitigate stop shorts.

Also circulating is remote sign on (not sure how that works for commercial grade) and split guard shifts, which goes against the suggestion that SWR are looking at increasing the amount of full crew working.

As I say, all rumours and no evidence.

Doesn't the Desiro fleet have ASDO fitted already, or am I miss understanding what is fitted and what is required?

 

[pompeyfan]

Doesn't the Desiro fleet have ASDO fitted already, or am I miss understanding what is fitted and what is required?

Desiro fleet has coach by coach ASDO but will open as many coaches as it is expected to, so if a driver stops an 8 car on the 5 car mark and only 6 coaches are on, all 8 will open, however with an increasing number of fleets, the ASDO system will count the coaches into the platform, so if the driver stops short, it will only open what is accommodated. I believe the Desiro TMS doesn’t allow for the above set up though.

 

[westv]

If the strikes go ahead, will passengers notice much difference in service for those occuring during the week?

 

[The Ham]

Desiro fleet has coach by coach ASDO but will open as many coaches as it is expected to, so if a driver stops an 8 car on the 5 car mark and only 6 coaches are on, all 8 will open, however with an increasing number of fleets, the ASDO system will count the coaches into the platform, so if the driver stops short, it will only open what is accommodated. I believe the Desiro TMS doesn’t allow for the above set up though.

Thank you for that clarification.

 

[swt_passenger]

Desiro fleet has coach by coach ASDO but will open as many coaches as it is expected to, so if a driver stops an 8 car on the 5 car mark and only 6 coaches are on, all 8 will open, however with an increasing number of fleets, the ASDO system will count the coaches into the platform, so if the driver stops short, it will only open what is accommodated. I believe the Desiro TMS doesn’t allow for the above set up though.

As discussed previously, although the 458/5 counts individual carriages into the platform, (and this is often considered safer than the Desiro 450/444 system), I believe the 458/5 system was only designed that way because they couldn’t add a more complicated ASDO to the existing TMS. I’ve not heard that any other modern stock, ie Desiro or Electrostar or later builds, will get a similar system to the 458/5...

 

[pompeyfan]

As discussed previously, although the 458/5 counts individual carriages into the platform, (and this is often considered safer than the Desiro 450/444 system), I believe the 458/5 system was only designed that way because they couldn’t add a more complicated ASDO to the existing TMS. I’ve not heard that any other modern stock, ie Desiro or Electrostar or later builds, will get a similar system to the 458/5...

I was under the impression that most bombardier built stuff could mitigate against stop shorts but I could well be wrong. I know the topic comes up every so often but I can’t remember what the outcome was.

Can 700s or 707s detect a stop short or is it a similar set up?

 

[Monty]

I was under the impression that most bombardier built stuff could mitigate against stop shorts but I could well be wrong. I know the topic comes up every so often but I can’t remember what the outcome was.

Can 700s or 707s detect a stop short or is it a similar set up?

For 707s it's the same system as the 450/444s so it's not failsafe against stop shorts.

 

[Goldfish62]

Running trains fast from useless locations has long been SWT/SWRs speciality. Trains from the Epsom line are frequently run fast from Motspur Park to Waterloo, when again Raynes Park would be far more convenient.

Yes, skip-stopping of Kingston loop trains running a couple of minutes late was a particular SWT speciality, which I had hoped would end under SWR. Unfortunately that's not the case.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was under the impression that most bombardier built stuff could mitigate against stop shorts but I could well be wrong. I know the topic comes up every so often but I can’t remember what the outcome was.

Can 700s or 707s detect a stop short or is it a similar set up?

I’m mainly going by how the two systems were described by railengineer magazine, ie that 444/450 was considered the norm, and 458 was the cheap and cheerful alternative. Not 100% sure what 700s do, but I’ve not seen it described as significantly different.

 

[jfollows]

The Times is today reporting that the franchise "is having to be renegotiated because of the operational and financial implications of the scrapping of big timetable changes due to be made in December"

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/graylings-big-idea-meets-its-waterloo-7bwznxkv2

Outside of the disastrously mashed together Thameslink-Southern railway superfranchise, South Western Railway into and out of London Waterloo is Britain’s busiest commuter train network, handling more than four million passengers a week. Not that you need to tell that to the long-suffering commuters of southwest London, Surrey, Berkshire and Hampshire. They know just how busy it is, with their working lives blighted by overcrowding on their daily trains.

It is why, when the southwest main line was put out to retender and Stagecoach, its operator since privatisation, was jettisoned, Chris Grayling made bold promises about a better future as he handed the keys to a new operator, a 70-30 joint venture between First Group, which also runs Great Western Railway out of Paddington, and MTR, of Hong Kong.

However, only 11 months into the new deal, it has emerged that the South Western Railway franchise is having to be renegotiated because of the operational and financial implications of the scrapping of big timetable changes due to be made in December.

That, in turn, has put Mr Grayling’s grand plans on hold. The much-criticised transport secretary had pledged “a revolution in services . . . real change . . . faster journeys and a more reliable service”: a 35 per cent increase in capacity in the morning peak into Waterloo; a 41 per cent increase in the evening peak; and overall, across the whole network from the main line to the south coast and including the Surrey and Berkshire suburban trains, an increase in the number of services of 23 per cent.

That would be delivered, he said, by his new vision of “track and train” coalescence unprecedented since privatisation, with the private sector train operating contractor working alongside Network Rail, the operator and maintainer of the country’s railway infrastructure that was nationalised five years ago. It was a string of pledges that began to unravel almost as soon as Mr Grayling had stopped talking.

An investigation of documents detail an increasingly testy three-way conversation between South Western Railway, Network Rail and the Office of Rail and Road, the regulator, and shows that by September last year — only a month into SWR’s operation of the franchise — the delivery of a wholesale upgrade of the timetable due in December this year was already being questioned.

Citing the amount of access to the network necessary to complete engineering works and questions over whether there would be enough power supply to run the trains, Network Rail warned the Office of Rail and Road that it “cannot support the application [for improved services] at this time as it cannot determine whether the timetable is deliverable within the overall constraints of the infrastructure”.

In October SWR responded, saying that the enhancements sought had been agreed by First Group/MTR and by the Department for Transport.

In December Network Rail hit back. Citing the amount of work needed to enhance the power supply, it stated: “Network Rail is not funded to deliver these upgrades.” It added, tartly, that the southwestern franchise tender had “specified that the franchisee must operate services which will be deliverable within the constraints of the infrastructure”.

Talks continued throughout the winter, but then stalled. In March, the regulator admitted that it had arrived at an impasse.

“We have advised Network Rail and SWR to continue discussions in order to reach agreement on as many issues as possible,” John Larkinson, the ORR’s head of railway markets, said. “Given the scale of the uncertainty and disagreement between SWR and Network Rail so far, we have not been able to make significant progress.”

And then silence. That is until a statement this month from South Western Railway amid the furore of the May timetable fiasco that has left hundreds of daily services cancelled or delayed. It stated: “Since before we started the South Western Railway franchise we have been preparing for a major timetable change in December 2018.

“We are therefore disappointed that we will not be implementing any changes to the December 2018 timetable.”

The financial implications for the already troubled First Group are unknown. Without a chief executive since Tim O’Toole resigned from the job two months ago, the company has crashed £326 million into the red. It has admitted that all options for its future are under review.