South Western Railway nationalisation time.

[Gloster]

The names are a relic of attempts to bring back images of obsequious waiters serving four-course meals on white linen bedecked tables in the restaurant cars of the old Big Four and before.

It is attempt to bring back an era that was very different to the more recent times of BR, which had largely moved into the more relevant purpose of being a means of transport. Not that the white linen tables were ever there for most and not that the new companies had any intention of trying to provide them.

The other names were meaningless corporate branding, which faded once they realised that problems with one could cause blame to spread to another (Connex, anyone?) or ‘fill in a local or regional name’, even though it was controlled centrally.

 

[Transilien]

The names are a relic of attempts to bring back images of obsequious waiters serving four-course meals on white linen bedecked tables in the restaurant cars of the old Big Four and before. It is attempt to bring back an era that was very different to the more recent times of BR, which had largely moved into the more relevant purpose of being a means of transport. Not that the white linen tables were ever there for most and not that the new companies had any intention of trying to provide them. The other names were meaningless corporate branding, which faded once they realised that problems with one could cause blame to spread to another (Connex, anyone?) or ‘fill in a local or regional name’, even though it was controlled centrally.

Honestly I prefer names like 'First Great Western' and 'Connex Southeastern' because they were more honest about ownership and also they brought an image of modernity. Right now many railway brands make me think of the made up brands at places like Lidl and Aldi.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Right now many railway brands make me think of the made up brands at places like Lidl and Aldi.

Neither of those brands are "made up".
They were created from the names of the German founders of those companies, much like Marks & Spencer here, or Rolls Royce.
Alstom sounds made up, but it links back to the company's origin in Alsace, France and its merger with Thomson-Houston.
Names like Apple and Google are made up, but that has not stopped them becoming two of the biggest global brands.

 

[thelongestroad]

Neither of those brands are "made up".
They were created from the names of the German founders of those companies, much like Marks & Spencer here, or Rolls Royce.
Alstom sounds made up, but it links back to the company's origin in Alsace, France and its merger with Thomson-Houston.
Names like Apple and Google are made up, but that has not stopped them becoming two of the biggest global brands.

They don't mean the actual names of the supermarkets, but the names given to own-brand products. All the supermarkets seem do it now...

 

[JamesT]

They don't mean the actual names of the supermarkets, but the names given to own-brand products. All the supermarkets seem do it now...

e.g. 'Dairy Manor', 'Milbona', Crivit', 'Parkside'. Which are all Lidl own-brands.

 

[Djgr]

Honestly I prefer names like 'First Great Western' and 'Connex Southeastern' because they were more honest about ownership and also they brought an image of modernity. Right now many railway brands make me think of the made up brands at places like Lidl and Aldi.

Calling a company "First" is rather arrogant and setting yourself up for failure.

 

[talldave]

Calling a company "First" is rather arrogant and setting yourself up for failure.

As is using "Great"...

 

[JamesT]

Calling a company "First" is rather arrogant and setting yourself up for failure.

Should they have stuck with 'Badgerline Group'?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As is using "Great"...

Great Britain is the largest of the British Isles, so it is called Great Britain. It makes no comment on how good it is.

 

[Brush 4]

More relevantly to users than train names, I emailed on the Sunday about reinstating catering trolleys to longer distance routes and got this back....
South Western Rail

Thank you for contacting us regarding our transfer into Public Ownership.

I note your suggestion in re-implementing catering on our services.
Unfortunately, at this time, there is no current plans to re-introduce catering on our routes.

Firstly, it's there are no plans.
Second, not a good start to crush constructive suggestions right from day 1.

 

[vuzzeho]

More relevantly to users than train names, I emailed on the Sunday about reinstating catering trolleys to longer distance routes and got this back....
South Western Rail


Firstly, it's there are no plans.
Second, not a good start to crush constructive suggestions right from day 1.

Well, it's day 1. They have a lot to sort out, and I'm sure reintroducing catering isn't the first thing on their mind. They aren't crushing a constructive suggestion - they're saying there aren't any plans for catering right now - and how would there be? They just got started.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Neither of those brands are "made up".
They were created from the names of the German founders of those companies, much like Marks & Spencer here, or Rolls Royce.
Alstom sounds made up, but it links back to the company's origin in Alsace, France and its merger with Thomson-Houston.
Names like Apple and Google are made up, but that has not stopped them becoming two of the biggest global brands.

Technically speaking, all brands and words associated with them are made up.

 

[greatkingrat]

More relevantly to users than train names, I emailed on the Sunday about reinstating catering trolleys to longer distance routes and got this back....
South Western Rail


Firstly, it's there are no plans.
Second, not a good start to crush constructive suggestions right from day 1.

Would you rather they lied and pretended they were actively considering it?

 

[trainstrainstr]

There's been little time wasted by those wanting to request information either. The WhatDoTheyKnow site already has 36 requests submitted to SWR since yesterday, 4 of which are asking for CIS/PIS sound files.

And one person answering them.

 

[m0ffy]

Should they have stuck with 'Badgerline Group'?

I think we can all agree that would have whipped. Imagine the livery!

 

[stadler]

And one person answering them.

Plus it is not even a SWR employee. Abigail Coates from LNER is answering all of the requests. They seem to be getting her to do the SWR ones too now. I will say that she is probably the most helpful FOI officer i have come across. She regularly goes above and beyond to answer requests.

 

[fandroid]

Has there been any announcement on how the branding will work with South Western Railway once full nationalisation happened?

South Western Railway has always been an odd one as the vast majority of it's service don't actually serve South West England.

That depends who you ask! Traveline had Hampshire and the cities of Southampton and Portsmouth as included in their SW Region. A potty decision (by the local authorities) as the vast majority of their transport connections are with South East counties (which included the Isle of Wight)

 

[dorsetdesiro]

That depends who you ask! Traveline had Hampshire and the cities of Southampton and Portsmouth as included in their SW Region. A potty decision (by the local authorities) as the vast majority of their transport connections are with South East counties (which included the Isle of Wight)

Funnily I thought the opposite, in the Network South East years, I thought NSE had a odd presence here as Dorset is in the SW region then it changed into SWT, I thought that's better then I remembered about more SE region counties like Hampshire also being covered too.

SWT/SWR mostly centres around the SWML to/from Waterloo - see SWR's cyan blue logo, rather than geographically.

 

[bramling]

Plus it is not even a SWR employee. Abigail Coates from LNER is answering all of the requests. They seem to be getting her to do the SWR ones too now. I will say that she is probably the most helpful FOI officer i have come across. She regularly goes above and beyond to answer requests.

Completely agree she seems amazingly helpful.

 

[fandroid]

SWR's network is actually a close fit with most the surviving lines of the original LSWR. The only ones that aren't covered (I think) are the faraway branches out of Plymouth and Exeter.

 

[swt_passenger]

SWR's network is actually a close fit with most the surviving lines of the original LSWR. The only ones that aren't covered (I think) are the faraway branches out of Plymouth and Exeter.

The LSWR would possibly never have survived its blatant naming error back in the day - if there’d been an interweb.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder to please stay on the topic of South Western Railway nationalisation.

Discussions relating to geographic regions/areas can take place in General Discussion.

Thanks

 

[Brush 4]

Would you rather they lied and pretended they were actively considering it?

No, say yes we will be reintroducing trolley service from the Dec timetable change, or something similar. They had time to make plans well before day 1, as it was known for a while before then.

 

[3141]

I really see no reason why nationalisation should be connected with reintroducing a trolley service.

What changes have there been the services offered by LNER, South Eastern, Northern and Transpennine since they became part of OLR? Maybe you wouldn't have expected any up till July 2024, when the previous government was officially expecting that those companies would eventually return to the private sector. But since then the expectation has been that they will remain under government control and become part of GBR. If nationalisation = trolley services there could have been some changes in those companies over the last ten months.

Just because SWR has passed into state control in different circumstances does not mean we should expect to see imminent major changes in the services offered there.

And I think it is a mistake to suppose that GBR will be a reincarnation of all the bits someone liked before privatisation and have disappeared at various points during the past 30 years. The new GBR should be designed to meet the needs of the railway system going forward from 2025, and not looking backward to 1996 and earlier.

 

[TheLastMinute]

I really see no reason why nationalisation should be connected with reintroducing a trolley service.

Indeed. I'd be surprised if on-train catering didn't make a significant loss for SWR, which is presumably why it was scrapped. Nationalisation won't change that fact. Why should the taxpayer subsidise a trolly so the odd person can buy a KitKat on the train? Personally, I'd much rather SWR focus on their core purpose, i.e. getting people from A to B quickly and on time.

 

[thenorthern]

I really see no reason why nationalisation should be connected with reintroducing a trolley service.

What changes have there been the services offered by LNER, South Eastern, Northern and Transpennine since they became part of OLR? Maybe you wouldn't have expected any up till July 2024, when the previous government was officially expecting that those companies would eventually return to the private sector. But since then the expectation has been that they will remain under government control and become part of GBR. If nationalisation = trolley services there could have been some changes in those companies over the last ten months.

Just because SWR has passed into state control in different circumstances does not mean we should expect to see imminent major changes in the services offered there.

And I think it is a mistake to suppose that GBR will be a reincarnation of all the bits someone liked before privatisation and have disappeared at various points during the past 30 years. The new GBR should be designed to meet the needs of the railway system going forward from 2025, and not looking backward to 1996 and earlier.

Ooooooo a return of the British Rail sandwich, BBC Radio 4 comedy shows will be excited about hours of new content.

On a more serious note I can't see full scale catering returning to trains. Times have moved on and with big terminal stations having numerous food outlets as well as Sainsburys Local there is simply no need for people to buy on the train. Also with modern day dietary requirements serving a microwaved Bacon cheeseburger with a coffee containing cow's milk isn't always a good option.

It will be interesting how catering will work under a state owned system as let's not forget the catering on trains under British Rail was done by
Travellers Fare which was privatised by the Thatcher government in 1988. Remember this was before the privatisation of British Rail was even considered as Thatcher always said selling off the railways was "a privatisation too far".

Realistically though I think catering, cleaning and other non-core assets will be put out to tender rather like the are currently with private TOCs.

 

[lordbusiness]

Remember that the RMT seem to be pushing for contracted staff such as cleaners etc to be directly employed by the railway so if catering was increased they would presumably want the same- permanent roles rather than contract/ casual.
It will be interesting to see Red Heidi's response to this. Although she stated that once the railway is fully nationalised it will be the second largest employer in the UK after the NHS.
As others have pointed out, to make catering pay is very difficult, even if you only introduce it on selected routes. As a rule of thumb, if you take someone's salary and multiply it by 1.5 that will give you roughly what their total cost is to the business so 20k equals 50k. To offer a viable catering service, even on a shortish route for most of the day needs more than one person, so even 10 extra staff will cost you 500k pa minimum. That's an awful lot of kitkats and cups of tea to make a profit.

 

[Djgr]

More relevantly to users than train names, I emailed on the Sunday about reinstating catering trolleys to longer distance routes and got this back....
South Western Rail


Firstly, it's there are no plans.
Second, not a good start to crush constructive suggestions right from day 1.

I have to say that if catering trolleys is the current main issue on your railway service then you truly have been enjoying privileged services.

Remember that the RMT seem to be pushing for contracted staff such as cleaners etc to be directly employed by the railway so if catering was increased they would presumably want the same- permanent roles rather than contract/ casual.

How dare they demand a decent wage and conditions of employment

Also with modern day dietary requirements serving a microwaved Bacon cheeseburger with a coffee containing cow's milk isn't always a good option.

Generally choices rather than strictly requirements

 

[norbitonflyer]

Generally, but not universally. Intolerance to gluten, lactose, nuts, etc are real and have to be taken seriously.

 

[43066]

Indeed. I'd be surprised if on-train catering didn't make a significant loss for SWR, which is presumably why it was scrapped. Nationalisation won't change that fact. Why should the taxpayer subsidise a trolly so the odd person can buy a KitKat on the train? Personally, I'd much rather SWR focus on their core purpose, i.e. getting people from A to B quickly and on time.

The business case for catering might stack up for some operators as a “value add”. Probably more the case for long distance than SWR though, admittedly.

As others have pointed out, to make catering pay is very difficult, even if you only introduce it on selected routes. As a rule of thumb, if you take someone's salary and multiply it by 1.5 that will give you roughly what their total cost is to the business so 20k equals 50k. To offer a viable catering service, even on a shortish route for most of the day needs more than one person, so even 10 extra staff will cost you 500k pa minimum. That's an awful lot of kitkats and cups of tea to make a profit.

I’m fairly sure 20k * 1.5 isn’t 50k . As above, it isn’t quite as straight forward as looking at costs/revenue of catering in isolation. If you can sell more expensive first class tickets as a result of having a customer host, for example, that needs to be factored in.

My operator has a first class host and a Rail Gourmet trolley in standard on many services.