Southeastern Class 465 refurb?

[SF-02]

There has recently been a rolling program of refurbishing Class 465/0/1/2 and 466 stock though it has been an extremely limited 'refurb'. I'm not talking of the traction package but the interior. It's not a patch on others I have seen around the country, or seen pics of on here. New seat covers of a slightly darker colour were installed, and there was new flooring and they moved the destination display from the end of the carriage to above the doors, so it is now not visible to people in about 18 seats each carriage. Before it was visible to all.

Most are already back to their grubby appearance. It seems a real missed opportunity not to have done more. They are now up to 23 years old. Any plans in the pipeline for changes such as making the toilets suitable for the disabled? This is a hot topic on some other threads about rolling stock but I havn't seen any mention in relation to class 465/466.

With London Bridge rebuilding meaning less trains able to run, the past couple of years during refurbs would have been an ideal time to put in more 2x2 seats to allow more standing space in future busier trains. The middle seat is often not used in the peaks as so little space.

Also putting in SDO would have made sense. Some trains will run at 12 carriages to make up for fewer being able to run throughout the London Bridge rebuild. NR have spent a couple of years extending all platforms except Woolwich Dockyard which is in a cutting. With SDO 12 cars could run at stopping services. Will stopping trains start skipping Woolwich Dockyard?

Then there is the general drab appearance inside. The 465/9's are so much nicer with brighter colours. Air con wouldn't have gone amiss either. Don't most trains get a decent refurb after 20 years? Southeastern's is certainly not that.

 

[joeykins82]

Their franchise was supposed to end this month; presumably a full rolling stock overhaul was being left to the new franchise holder. However, they've got another 4 years from the DfT.

 

[SF-02]

Their franchise was supposed to end this month; presumably a full rolling stock overhaul was being left to the new franchise holder. However, they've got another 4 years from the DfT.

Yep. I'm still unsure about the whole extension. Is it set in stone for the whole franchise? Even after it was announced there was some comments that the metro routes could still be spun off.

Plus they still havn't finalised timetables and services for the next 4 years despite the extension. Just what is happening? Could rolling stock upgrades still be announced? It seems a mess.

 

[joeykins82]

The transfer of metro services to TfL Rail was proposed but was denied. TOCs aren't going to place an order for new stock or to fully refurb existing stock during a franchise extension unless it's been mandated by the DfT: there's no incentive for them to spend any more money than they absolutely have to in order to provide the minimum level of service stipulated in the contract.

 

[Class377/5]

The extensions to the franchises were only announced not actually agreed. For example Northern, whose franchise ends at the end of the month hasn't got an agreement yet so Southeastern is way down the list to be sorted.

Not that once the deal is signed the DfT won't change things which is what's happened to FGW who have now been told not to arrange stock for Thames Valley.

 

[hedpe]

I much prefer the 465's to the 376's, even though they can be a bit claustrophobic at times in the rush hour. If i recall correctly, they did experiment with removing all the 3x3 seating a few years back. The updated PID's with some posh english bird announcing the stations is a welcome addition, i guess putting them by the doors makes them more prevalent to passengers. Disabled toilets will cost an awful lot to fit, plus removal of seats, as would air conditioning. But lets thank the 465's for at least having a toilet and good air circulation unlike the 376 Oddly enough it recently occurred to me that 376's cant run as a 12 car set.

 

[samuelmorris]

I much prefer the 465's to the 376's, even though they can be a bit claustrophobic at times in the rush hour. If i recall correctly, they did experiment with removing all the 3x3 seating a few years back. The updated PID's with some posh english bird announcing the stations is a welcome addition, i guess putting them by the doors makes them more prevalent to passengers. Disabled toilets will cost an awful lot to fit, plus removal of seats, as would air conditioning. But lets thank the 465's for at least having a toilet and good air circulation unlike the 376 Oddly enough it recently occurred to me that 376's cant run as a 12 car set.

But they can as a 10 without requiring a 466 to be added in

'Posh english bird' made me laugh. Would you rather it be a different nationality? - IIRC it's Julie Berry, the same as on a large number of other TOCs in the southeast, including at least Southern, c2c, Greater Anglia and the Piccadilly line.

 

[hedpe]

But they can as a 10 without requiring a 466 to be added in

'Posh english bird' made me laugh. Would you rather it be a different nationality? - IIRC it's Julie Berry, the same as on a large number of other TOCs in the southeast, including at least Southern, c2c, Greater Anglia and the Piccadilly line.

I'd say she's one of my least favourites. Almost as bad as Sgt. Anne

 

[stephen465fan]

Indeed, the interiors of many 465s do look worse for wear (and smell it too!)

Never really have any issue with their mechanical health though....

By far the worst aspect of the ride on them is the toilets, which evidently got no attention during the refurb.

 

[Class 466]

Look to Southeastern's 375 'Refresh' which was some CCTV cameras, new seat covers and a new strip of carpet in First Class. A vast majority of the first batch of 375s (375/3/6/7) now have vinyl missing from the doors, they all lost the lower grey band a good few years back, and look a mess. The stick on plastic put on the tables is peeling off. 465/466s look bad but 375s aren't far behind.

 

[user15681]

I would suspect the lack of investment in them being the franchise length and associated issues. I have contacted a friend of mine, who is out of the country at the moment, but I should be able to get an actual reason for only the minor touch up.

Now for my personal opinions...

I'd contend that the PIS or displays weren't always previously visible. I'm sure there were a few seats where view was obstructed by the plastic panels either side of the doors. Anyway, a lot of stock has areas where view of displays is restricted, but passengers still manage okay.

I'd agree that they can be grubby at times, although I'd put that down to passengers with a lack of respect for them. Litter, spilt drinks, papers etc. It's inevitable on intensive services. When clean, i.e on the first service of the day, they're just fine.

Traditionally, 2x2 seating reduces capacity. IMO the best layout and seating for high capacity would be the 376 layout with slightly more padded seats (if possible).

465s already have a very basic SDO, but it's never used. Retrospectively fitting sophisticated SDO would be very expensive and complex. Believe me it has been considered. As for Woolwich Dockyard, it would seem as though 12 car services will just pass through. The only option is SDO, as platform extension isn't feasible, even inside the tunnel. Also some problems with 12 cars at ChX.
Last I heard some 12 car 465s should be introduced with the May timetable, although don't quote me on that. There were a few issues with ASLEF at first which should have cleared up now, but I haven't heard anything since.

I'd also agree that the /0/1/2 and 466s look dull inside. I think the whiter colours/lighting and orange grab rails and handles help inside the 465/9s.

 

[TEW]

Last I heard some 12 car 465s should be introduced with the May timetable, although don't quote me on that. There were a few issues with ASLEF at first which should have cleared up now, but I haven't heard anything since.

The 12-car 465 services were in the diagrams for December 2013, but they've never actually run. It was initially said that they'd be introduced by January.

 

[user15681]

The 12-car 465 services were in the diagrams for December 2013, but they've never actually run. It was initially said that they'd be introduced by January.

I had a feeling they were but was going on what a driver had told me in November IIRC so erred on the side of caution. I'm sure I saw a video of one coming out of Gillingham preparing for passenger service.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'd say she's one of my least favourites. Almost as bad as Sgt. Anne

Still less depressing than the TransPennine automated announcements. The voice for those almost sounds like they weren't being paid

 

[387star]

At least livery is nice

Have all 2 and 9 465 subclasses been treated

Wasn't aware flooring had been touched

Some still have grey band

 

[user15681]

At least livery is nice

Have all 2 and 9 465 subclasses been treated

Wasn't aware flooring had been touched

Some still have grey band

Yes, much prefer it. The /2 and /9 aren't completed yet (/0 /1 and 466 all completed). There are only around 10-15 of the /9s left to do and about 10 of the /2s.

 

[387star]

Is a 9 still floating about with plain yellow doors and what's the deal with the equipment covers some white others not
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Taking forever is there an updated livery list? Am I right all are being retro fitted with the new livery now?

 

[TheJRB]

Some still have grey band

Some certainly do. I took a trip around the Southeastern suburban/metro area last Wednesday and noted 465249, 465903 and 465926 all are still in the old livery. I wonder when the 376s and the 375s (aside from 375609, 375624 and 375705) will get the new livery.

Funnily enough, I was thinking to myself how much I prefer the /0, /1 and /2 interior of grey and blue rather than the /9 yellow and blue. I've also generally found the ride quality of the BREL/ABB batch to be better than the Metro-Cammell.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is a 9 still floating about with plain yellow doors and what's the deal with the equipment covers some white others not

465906 is the unit you're thinking of. I'm pretty sure I saw it recently in the same livery. Similarly, 375308 has just the lilac doors and no band.

 

[user15681]

Is a 9 still floating about with plain yellow doors and what's the deal with the equipment covers some white others not
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Taking forever is there an updated livery list? Am I right all are being retro fitted with the new livery now?

As TheJRB points out, it's 465906. It's still in the livery, with no set plan to change it. I kinda like it, actually.

There is a list, but it's not complete, on the first post of this thread. Note that 465902 went away this weekend, although that has other problems and has been out of service some while due to tree damage. Also, 465925 returned this week reliveried.

Some certainly do. I took a trip around the Southeastern suburban/metro area last Wednesday and noted 465249, 465903 and 465926 all are still in the old livery. I wonder when the 376s and the 375s (aside from 375609, 375624 and 375705) will get the new livery.

Funnily enough, I was thinking to myself how much I prefer the /0, /1 and /2 interior of grey and blue rather than the /9 yellow and blue. I've also generally found the ride quality of the BREL/ABB batch to be better than the Metro-Cammell.

Don't forget 375308 . The 375s were supposed to go for relivery starting towards the end of last year in a similar fashion to the 465s, but this has been put on hold. I note a few have had the panel under the windscreens changed, and new style of numbering (just like 375609). Could be down to tree strikes, though.

 

[Class 466]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As TheJRB points out, it's 465906. It's still in the livery, with no set plan to change it. I kinda like it, actually.

There is a list, but it's not complete, on the first post of this thread. Note that 465902 went away this weekend, although that has other problems and has been out of service some while due to tree damage. Also, 465925 returned this week reliveried.



Don't forget 375308 . The 375s were supposed to go for relivery starting towards the end of last year in a similar fashion to the 465s, but this has been put on hold. I note a few have had the panel under the windscreens changed, and new style of numbering (just like 375609). Could be down to tree strikes, though.

How Could anyone ever forget 308 Do you have any ID's on the units with this other numbering style?

 

[user15681]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


How Could anyone ever forget 308 Do you have any ID's on the units with this other numbering style?

I realise we're digressing from the thread topic now, but 375613 for sure, under the driver's side, although that's not new by any means. It's black and thin font (the same as 375609) as opposed to the dark blue and bold font on other numbers. I want to say there's another one around as well, possibly another /6.

 

[SF-02]

I would suspect the lack of investment in them being the franchise length and associated issues. I have contacted a friend of mine, who is out of the country at the moment, but I should be able to get an actual reason for only the minor touch up.

Now for my personal opinions...

I'd contend that the PIS or displays weren't always previously visible. I'm sure there were a few seats where view was obstructed by the plastic panels either side of the doors. Anyway, a lot of stock has areas where view of displays is restricted, but passengers still manage okay.

I'd agree that they can be grubby at times, although I'd put that down to passengers with a lack of respect for them. Litter, spilt drinks, papers etc. It's inevitable on intensive services. When clean, i.e on the first service of the day, they're just fine.

Traditionally, 2x2 seating reduces capacity. IMO the best layout and seating for high capacity would be the 376 layout with slightly more padded seats (if possible).

465s already have a very basic SDO, but it's never used. Retrospectively fitting sophisticated SDO would be very expensive and complex. Believe me it has been considered. As for Woolwich Dockyard, it would seem as though 12 car services will just pass through. The only option is SDO, as platform extension isn't feasible, even inside the tunnel. Also some problems with 12 cars at ChX.
Last I heard some 12 car 465s should be introduced with the May timetable, although don't quote me on that. There were a few issues with ASLEF at first which should have cleared up now, but I haven't heard anything since.

I'd also agree that the /0/1/2 and 466s look dull inside. I think the whiter colours/lighting and orange grab rails and handles help inside the 465/9s.

I agree moving the passenger displays isn't a major issue, though a bit silly. It's actually 26 seats that now have no view of them whatsoever as opposed to zero before. I suppose the argument for changing would be they are more visible now to people in the middle of the carriage. When standing in the vestible on busy services it can also be hard to see as now directly below it. Having 4 instead of 2 would have made more sense.

2x2 as on 376 would be ok. If they could chop of one of the end seats of the row of 3 that's would be fine. Lot's more standing space which will be needed with growing passenger numbers and less trains running from 2015 up to 2018. Too late to do much now it would appear.

As for toilets isn't the disability deadline around 2020? With London Bridge completion in 2018 and limited scope to work on them up to then, it seems a tight schedule to convert all trains. Maybe they will just be removed on many if not all 0/1/1 and 466?

It will be interesting to hear what your friend says about the reason for the limited touch up. Seems like the DfT missed an opportunity by not stipulating a bigger overhaul when the franchise was awarded.

 

[user15681]

I agree moving the passenger displays isn't a major issue, though a bit silly. It's actually 26 seats that now have no view of them whatsoever as opposed to zero before. I suppose the argument for changing would be they are more visible now to people in the middle of the carriage. When standing in the vestible on busy services it can also be hard to see as now directly below it. Having 4 instead of 2 would have made more sense.

2x2 as on 376 would be ok. If they could chop of one of the end seats of the row of 3 that's would be fine. Lot's more standing space which will be needed with growing passenger numbers and less trains running from 2015 up to 2018. Too late to do much now it would appear.

As for toilets isn't the disability deadline around 2020? With London Bridge completion in 2018 and limited scope to work on them up to then, it seems a tight schedule to convert all trains. Maybe they will just be removed on many if not all 0/1/1 and 466?

It will be interesting to hear what your friend says about the reason for the limited touch up. Seems like the DfT missed an opportunity by not stipulating a bigger overhaul when the franchise was awarded.

I hadn't thought about the vestibules before, which obviously has a lot of people in it during the peaks and the closer you get to London. I can understand your point about that. I guess announcements alone were deemed sufficient for those unable to see them and anyway, the times when people have no option but to stand in the vestibule are most likely to be the times when everyone knows where they're going.

Chopping a seat off from the 3 of the 3x2 would make more space for passengers to stand, but I'm not sure how happy passengers would be about that. I think a lot would see it as a loss and complain that there were less seats.

I can't comment on toilets as I'm not entirely sure, sorry.

 

[Barn]

On the topic of 465s, which are my daily commuting stock, there is something that I have wondered about:

On some 465s, immediately behind the driver's cab, one row of seats on one side has been removed and replaced with a large white equipment cupboard.

What is this, and why do only some 465s seem to have it?

 

[Yew]

I really wish Branson hadnt made this mess. One of the worst things to happen to that rail industry since the 1000 day drought on stock orders due to BR being privatised