NSEWonderer
Established Member
Indeed, it would be too costly and tbh I don't think anyone would want 376s on their patch now.
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Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement
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TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Not to match pedantry with pedantry, but new stock will definitely arrive, even if there's only enough specified to replace the Networkers. It's whether or not the other fleets can be factored into the replacement if that is indeed the case, which is unlikely, but then one would have thought the same of Southern's 455s.
I was reading in the guardian that Reeves is preparing more austerity and the DfT could be in line for cuts. In a roundabout way that will impact procurement as lease fees higher? What I'm unsure of is how much higher eg double the cost per annum per coach compared to Networkers given how old they are? Three times? Ten per cent?
How much would SE need passenger numbers to rise to meet higher lease costs and how that factors into the DfT/Treasury agreeing. Of course there's also ongoing maintenance costs etc.
How much would SE need passenger numbers to rise to meet higher lease costs and how that factors into the DfT/Treasury agreeing. Of course there's also ongoing maintenance costs etc.
Mikey C
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And the 701 having toilets was also a reaction to the complaints after the SWT ordered 707s that didn't have toilets.
One positive thing about the 376s, is that while the seating is the ultimate in ironing board design, at least the seats are of a decent width and have decent legroom. The 707s (like the other Desiro Cities) are every uncomfortable if 2 people are next to each other.
As mentioned already, the new stock will arrive. The question is when. In 5 years? 10? 20?
Will Networkers soldier as long as Bakerloo line junk? Quite possibly, it is Britain AD2025 after all, broken, half-bankrupt, country.
NSEWonderer
Established Member
I think if a unit has lasted as long as the current bakerloo line stock then it can't really be classed as Junk but decrepit.As mentioned already, the new stock will arrive. The question is when. In 5 years? 10? 20?
Will Networkers soldier as long as Bakerloo line junk? Quite possibly, it is Britain AD2025 after all, broken, half-bankrupt, country.
Robin Edwards
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there is a move from Ely Mlf to Newport Sims scheduled for tomorrow : 5Q76 - anyone know what this might be? 466 units recently moved from Worksop?
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
If a unit has lasted as long as the current bakerloo line stock then it must surely be testimony to their design
NSEWonderer
Established Member
IndeedIf a unit has lasted as long as the current bakerloo line stock then it must surely be testimony to their design
Nicholas Lewis
On Moderation
Absolutely there simple design allows them to maintained without fear of electronics becoming obsolete which has condemned much younger stock to the crusher
And to the engineers that maintain themIf a unit has lasted as long as the current bakerloo line stock then it must surely be testimony to their design
Milo T.K
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The only reason the bakerloo line trains have lasted so long is because they have had to be life extended from the corrosion in the components. There's also that not much for the trains are made anymore hence why the AIT and Aldwych unit went to get spares for the trains.
Anyway back on topic the BREL ones seem to have generally lasted slightly better than the Metro Cammel ones
Anyway back on topic the BREL ones seem to have generally lasted slightly better than the Metro Cammel ones
RUK
Member
Their design goes back to the 1967 Tube Stock for the Victoria Line, I believe, which in turn I believe was based on the prototype 1960 Tube Stock.
DBS92042
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Reported as 37800 + 465240 465248
Class15
Established Member
As someone local to the Gospel Oak to Barking line I would dispute that. We had diesels (172s) under the wires, shortened 378s and a halved service frequency for a while, because of the 710s.
Goldfish62
Veteran Member
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Indeed, but once the problems were resolved they were introduced into service very quickly.
Robin Edwards
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And cancelled.
I think it's fair to say that storing stock unused for several years and then wanting to drag across the network to South Wales is not without challenges!
brad465
Established Member
I'm a bit relieved it's cancelled as I'd like to observe some /2 drags, but as I'm currently abroad I can't right now, but hopefully will next week if it's rescheduled to then.
Robin Edwards
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Indeed - these runs can often be last-chance-saloon time for seeing any units that have been missed. I have one networker at Ely that I'm missing (465905) and one at Worksop (466010). Going out for scheduled runs is fraught with risks though.
brad465
Established Member
The nearest observation point from Taunton (for Newport drags) is Severn Tunnel Jct, which can be done on a direct train in a reasonable-ish time. The challenge is working out what train to get, because it's an hourly service and scrap drags are among those that can end up being really early or really late, and are also subject to significant changes in how late/early they are mid-journey. When the first 466s were taken to Newport, I didn't try and observe them, but kept an eye on them on RTT and OTT to see how they fared; the 2nd drag was early enough, that if I got the train that would have got me there for when the drag was scheduled to pass, I'd have missed it.Indeed - these runs can often be last-chance-saloon time for seeing any units that have been missed. I have one networker at Ely that I'm missing (465905) and one at Worksop (466010). Going out for scheduled runs is fraught with risks though.
History turns full circle. They were a pain in the backside when they were new.
Robin Edwards
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Something is scheduled for tomorrow 31/3 : 5Q25 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Masborough Booths : 465s going for scrap at Booths rather than Sims?
brad465
Established Member
If they are talk about sampling scrap dealers: we've seen Newport, Kingsbury and I believe the 2 coaches of 465235 were scrapped at Booths, so these 3 have all been used for Networker disposal. Unless something else stored at Ely is going to Booths tomorrow?
Snow1964
Established Member
The latest version of DfT procurement pipeline spreadsheet has the South Eastern contract commencement for new trains (350 to 640 vehicles) starting estimated 1st July 2025 (in just 3 months time, just after spending review announced), is this significant
www.gov.uk
It is months ahead of latest estimated contract commencement dates for GWR new fleet (9 Jan 2026), Northern DMUs (2 March 2026), Northern BEMUs, EMUs and MMUs (27 May 2026)
Future commercial contracts for DfT and partners
Listing of upcoming Department for Transport (DfT) and associated bodies commercial contracts – known as the commercial pipeline – for which bidders may apply.
It is months ahead of latest estimated contract commencement dates for GWR new fleet (9 Jan 2026), Northern DMUs (2 March 2026), Northern BEMUs, EMUs and MMUs (27 May 2026)
465245/249
Tram203
Member
Thanks, mixed reports on gen pages
The dates will all be estimates, it's incredibly common for procurement timescales to slip. Other posters have indicated Southeastern have been talking about a decision at some point this year. These documents are often very rough outlines and the dates chosen somewhat arbitrary. The "UK Mission Control Centre and Antenna Service Cospas-Sarsat System Support -2033" is down as starting procurement on Christmas Day 2032.The latest version of DfT procurement pipeline spreadsheet has the South Eastern contract commencement for new trains (350 to 640 vehicles) starting estimated 1st July 2025 (in just 3 months time, just after spending review announced), is this significant
Future commercial contracts for DfT and partners
Listing of upcoming Department for Transport (DfT) and associated bodies commercial contracts – known as the commercial pipeline – for which bidders may apply.
It is months ahead of latest estimated contract commencement dates for GWR new fleet (9 Jan 2026), Northern DMUs (2 March 2026), Northern BEMUs, EMUs and MMUs (27 May 2026)
This is resource spending and from the sounds of it is after the best business case so is unlikely to have any impacts on or from the spending review.
Not strictly metro-related, but this line in a press release on the May timetable change would suggest that all services terminating at Tunbridge Wells will be run as Networkers from the middle of next month, as the 375s can't run in 10-car formation+
https://newsroom.southeasternrailway.co.uk/news/southeastern-introduces-timetable-boost-from-may-with-newer-trains-and-more-carriages-to-support-a-growing-railway
https://newsroom.southeasternrailway.co.uk/news/southeastern-introduces-timetable-boost-from-may-with-newer-trains-and-more-carriages-to-support-a-growing-railway
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
They can and do.