Southeastern to OLR: what could happen next?

[Aictos]

But they aren't being widely tipped

Indeed, a article in the Times was simply speculative. You cannot use one such article to say the SE Metro operations are widely tipped to be transferred from SE to LOROL.

 

[Horizon22]

Great news that TFL are being widely tipped to take over the Metro network. This can only mean good things for staff and passengers.

They're really not. TfL don't have the money to do it - if they did take it up it wouldn't be anywhere near the standard that people come to expect of the Overground.

TfL are not some magic fix - the reason things get better when they take over routes is because they can plough money into stock, stations and staff which - surprise surprise - improves the overall satisfaction. If SE had the same money and focus on a particular set of routes and NR had funding for the infrastructure then it would be broadly the same types of improvements.

 

[Roast Veg]

They're really not. TfL don't have the money to do it - if they did take it up it wouldn't be anywhere near the standard that people come to expect of the Overground.

TfL are not some magic fix - the reason things get better when they take over routes is because they can plough money into stock, stations and staff which - surprise surprise - improves the overall satisfaction. If SE had the same money and focus on a particular set of routes and NR had funding for the infrastructure then it would be broadly the same types of improvements.

Additionally I seem to recall that the driver links between metro and outer suburban services were quite mixed weren't they? That's not to say a solution couldn't be found (especially since turnover is so high), but it does pose something of an issue to service separation.

 

[Horizon22]

Additionally I seem to recall that the driver links between metro and outer suburban services were quite mixed weren't they? That's not to say a solution couldn't be found (especially since turnover is so high), but it does pose something of an issue to service separation.

Depends on depots. Most drivers at Dartford, Slade Green & Orpington will be doing solely metro work, but its a bit more mixed at places like Charing Cross and Victoria - although its normally link dependent so a bit easier to separate. Grove Park is also heavily metro but not entirely. It's obviously not insurmountable to separate the service, but it is rather complex and needs to be done with a good deal of planning.

 

[Rail.Fan]

In my opinion the only way the Overground would be able to even takeover is if only a handful of routes were taken such as the Bexleyheath Line it wouldn’t work if they simply took over all Metro Services as they go far out.

 

[Horizon22]

In my opinion the only way the Overground would be able to even takeover is if only a handful of routes were taken such as the Bexleyheath Line it wouldn’t work if they simply took over all Metro Services as they go far out.

We're getting a little speculative here but I'd argue all the lines to Dartford would be the best candidates to start with. It would also be easier if they all terminated at one London terminal, but then you'd get the residents up in arms who enjoy their "all routes to all terminals" services, despite the issues that can cause at Lewisham / New Cross. That being said after some specific anger from the Greenwich crowd about losing their direct Charing Cross trains, that's become accepted practice now and changing at London Bridge isn't THAT bad in reality (contrary to some of the hyperbole at the time).

 

[CBlue]

They're really not. TfL don't have the money to do it - if they did take it up it wouldn't be anywhere near the standard that people come to expect of the Overground.

TfL are not some magic fix - the reason things get better when they take over routes is because they can plough money into stock, stations and staff which - surprise surprise - improves the overall satisfaction. If SE had the same money and focus on a particular set of routes and NR had funding for the infrastructure then it would be broadly the same types of improvements.

Can only agree - TfL are not the magic cure some commentators appear to think. Then again, if they did ever take over SE Metro services under the Overground Banner, I expect nothing less than the usual moaning on here when any new rolling stock is found to have longitudinal seats with no toilets (or buffet counter)

 

[Horizon22]

Can only agree - TfL are not the magic cure some commentators appear to think. Then again, if they did ever take over SE Metro services under the Overground Banner, I expect nothing less than the usual moaning on here when any new rolling stock is found to have longitudinal seats with no toilets (or buffet counter)

To be far SE already have 376s (and now 707s) without toilets and 465s often have them out of order! There's a weird SE passenger crowd who get very tetchy about toilets though (and to be fair complain about anything) which might be some fall out of the Lewisham self-evacuation in 2018.

 

[43066]

We're getting a little speculative here but I'd argue all the lines to Dartford would be the best candidates to start with. It would also be easier if they all terminated at one London terminal, but then you'd get the residents up in arms who enjoy their "all routes to all terminals" services, despite the issues that can cause at Lewisham / New Cross. That being said after some specific anger from the Greenwich crowd about losing their direct Charing Cross trains, that's become accepted practice now and changing at London Bridge isn't THAT bad in reality (contrary to some of the hyperbole at the time).

Agreed. Grove Park, Gillingham, Tonbridge, Victoria and Charing + all do a mix of mainline and metro. GPK almost all metro, Tonbridge mostly mainline. The others somewhere between the two. It would be rather odd for TfL to be responsible for running services as far out as Gravesend and Sevenoaks (although I suppose you could say the same about Watford Junction!).

It would be complex and difficult to unpick, and for what real benefit? Exactly as you say people associate TfL with London Overground. If they take over SE it’ll be the same trains, staff etc as now. I can’t believe for a second they’d commit to staffing all SE metro stations from beginning to end of traffic a la London Overground due to the cost!

 

[43066]

To be far SE already have 376s (and now 707s) without toilets and 465s often have them out of order! There's a weird SE passenger crowd who get very tetchy about toilets though (and to be fair complain about anything) which might be some fall out of the Lewisham self-evacuation in 2018.

SE has about the worst catchment area of passengers of any toc who, as a collective, complain incessantly but also behave terribly. The North Kent line isn’t nicknamed “the scum” for nothing!

 

[zcacmxi]

Personally as a user of SE, I'm sceptical on what any takeover will now bring (TFL or otherwise). Having seen the service run by BR, Connex, South Eastern OLR, SouthEastern, I believe due to bottlenecks elsewhere on the tracks (lewisham/london bridge/etc), length of platforms / bridges / etc, there are limits on what can be achieved.

Oyster is already accepted, the stations are in Zones, and sometimes the PAYG fares are lower than rail only fare. So if TFL did take over, other than a new Orangle colour scheme, I'd expect benefits to be limited especially considering TFL's current financial predicament.

 

[NorthKent1989]

We're getting a little speculative here but I'd argue all the lines to Dartford would be the best candidates to start with. It would also be easier if they all terminated at one London terminal, but then you'd get the residents up in arms who enjoy their "all routes to all terminals" services, despite the issues that can cause at Lewisham / New Cross. That being said after some specific anger from the Greenwich crowd about losing their direct Charing Cross trains, that's become accepted practice now and changing at London Bridge isn't THAT bad in reality (contrary to some of the hyperbole at the time).

The Greenwich line was somewhat placated with Thameslink which essentially gave the line an extra two London terminals: Blackfriars and St. Pancras in place of one: Charing Cross, so it’s not quite a one line one terminal route, having recently lived in and used Westcombe Park there’s still a fair few who want to see the return of direct Charing Cross trains!

I wouldn’t mind if TfL did take over the SE metro routes but it won’t exactly be the magic wand everyone is expecting.

 

[bramling]

Great news that TFL are being widely tipped to take over the Metro network. This can only mean good things for staff and passengers.

Where are they being widely tipped? Some people keeping repeating that it “should happen” doesn’t mean it will, especially against the backdrop where we have a Conservative government engaged in the middle of a very public and bloody spat with the Labour mayor, and TFL having enough issues right left end centre.

That’s not to say it won’t ever happen, but I don’t think it’s centre stage at the moment.

They’ve been saying that for years and I doubt it will ever happen. Is TFL really in a position to take on another large and complex metro network?

I suppose it *could* happen if the government want to offload it onto Khan and co, and are prepared to set them up for a bit of a fall.

By the same token I’m not sure there’s quite the TFL appetite for it. The days of Mike Brown and Peter Hendy gazing longingly at the London rail map and dreaming of this all being their own empire are long over. There’s enough issues just running LU at the moment.

The North London lines were a relative success due to the amount of money TFL were able to throw at them, the amount of suppressed demand, and the poor reputation Silverlink had. I’m not sure this applies to SE in the same way. Much as SE Metro does feel rather “left behind”, it’s nothing compared to the 1990s North London Lines - a 3-car 313 floating round every 15-20 minutes and stations with bullet holes in the signage.

 

[Horizon22]

The Greenwich line was somewhat placated with Thameslink which essentially gave the line an extra two London terminals: Blackfriars and St. Pancras in place of one: Charing Cross, so it’s not quite a one line one terminal route, having recently lived in and used Westcombe Park there’s still a fair few who want to see the return of direct Charing Cross trains!

I wouldn’t mind if TfL did take over the SE metro routes but it won’t exactly be the magic wand everyone is expecting.

Well Thameslink down the Greenwich line was a bit of a fudge anyway after they realised the trains wouldn't fit through Norwood Junction. I'm sure they would - and no doubt lots of people all across London would like direct links from their home station to the multiple London terminals which are technically feasible. But it's a balance between customer demands, reliable service and operational requirements which is as always, very hard to get right. Not to mention different passenger groups arguing for changes to services which would actually be to the detriment of the other one!

 

[Ianno87]

Personally as a user of SE, I'm sceptical on what any takeover will now bring (TFL or otherwise). Having seen the service run by BR, Connex, South Eastern OLR, SouthEastern, I believe due to bottlenecks elsewhere on the tracks (lewisham/london bridge/etc), length of platforms / bridges / etc, there are limits on what can be achieved.

Oyster is already accepted, the stations are in Zones, and sometimes the PAYG fares are lower than rail only fare. So if TFL did take over, other than a new Orangle colour scheme, I'd expect benefits to be limited especially considering TFL's current financial predicament.

The best thing that could be done (with money and political will) would be tart up the current stock and stations, introduce more ticket barriers on the network, and staff all stations first to last train.

Either TfL or DfT could do that, if they put up the money for it.

 

[bramling]

The best thing that could be done (with money and political will) would be tart up the current stock and stations, introduce more ticket barriers on the network, and staff all stations first to last train.

Either TfL or DfT could do that, if they put up the money for it.

A decent clean and some minor ambience-led enhancements to the Networkers would go a long way. Likewise the stations.

I get the impression the West Anglia element of London Overground has seen much less in the way of benefit from TFL. The new trains would likely have happened anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

The South eastern metro area has some attractive well covered Victorian era stations as well as some relatively modern NSE ones. I get the impression that they need a bit of TLC again and a bit more of a staff presence.

 

[bramling]

The South eastern metro area has some attractive well covered Victorian era stations as well as some relatively modern NSE ones. I get the impression that they need a bit of TLC again and a bit more of a staff presence.

A bit less grey paint wouldn’t go amiss too!

WAGN went through a phase painting their stations grey sometime around the 2000s. Dire!

 

[yorksrob]

A bit less grey paint wouldn’t go amiss too!

WAGN went through a phase painting their stations grey sometime around the 2000s. Dire!

Well, same could be said for all those VEP's and CIG's in yukky Connex grey.

Give us Southern green or NSE red, just anything but grey !

 

[big_rig]

There's a lot of comment on the wider internet suggesting it may have been an accounting error as a result of the complicated track access rules on HS1, with the error being from the start of the first direct-award.

London Reconnections have a detailed article on the subject and how this wasn't news to those in the know - https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/southeastern-non-breaking-news/

One snippet in that article explores how the missing money came to light, in 2020, and the response from Southeastern.

I don’t mean to be too much of a cynic, but that London Reconnections article is very ‘nothing to see here, noobs’ for a blog that as far as I can’t tell has neither commented on this issue previously nor provided much in the way of original content for a very long article…but I have been burnt by buying one of their magazines before which was very much in the same vein.

 

[krus_aragon]

Indeed, a article in the Times was simply speculative. You cannot use one such article to say the SE Metro operations are widely tipped to be transferred from SE to LOROL.

But the Times is a broadsheet: you can't get wider than that! :P

 

[NorthKent1989]

Don't forget though that part of the reason the Rainham train is a Thameslink service is that it isn't practical to access Charing Cross from the Greenwich line and the other part is that there isn't anywhere sensible to send an 8-car Thameslink service on the Southern network.

Also worth remembering that the Rainham Thameslink service still has to make a conflicting move from the Greenwich line to the Thameslink line at NK Junction, which defeated the purpose of ironing out the lines in the first place.

Windmill Junction isn't getting upgraded any time soon. An eight-car service isn't particularly helpful via East Croydon. The Rainham service will be fairly well established by the time any work is done. What replaces the capacity via Greenwich?

Well it has been suggested that it could use Cannon Street again if such a scenario arises, to be honest the real game changer for the NK line is CrossRail especially for those east of Woolwich/Abbey Wood, there have been mutterings that the Rainham service could become a Reigate service but pretty sure that’s replacing a Gatwick stopper another one is that it could be rerouted to run via Blackheath then onto Woolwich and beyond, I don’t believe anything is set in stone

 

[JonathanH]

I don’t believe anything is set in stone

No, indeed, therefore the inference is that Thameslink just continue to run to Rainham.

 

[Geogregor]

The South eastern metro area has some attractive well covered Victorian era stations as well as some relatively modern NSE ones. I get the impression that they need a bit of TLC again and a bit more of a staff presence.

Many of the stations are literally falling apart. I work at stations where mushrooms grow from the walls in the staff areas. Nobody really cares. The network need some serious investment and proper management. Sadly I can't see either of it coming any time soon.

 

[Rail.Fan]

I have to agree the Southeastern stations are in terrible condition and the dreary Grey only shows up more of the dirt. The network looks old and unwelcoming for the 21st Century.

 

[ScotGG]

I don't think many expect miracles from any TfL (not that transfer is likely) given well known constraints yet something different would be welcomed by many.

It stems from the department of transport not caring for so many years so while they could have done X, y or z they never ever have.

I also don't think the network has a worse clientele than many other rough parts of the country. The difference is on SE they're practically welcomed on and can run riot as staff levels are so low. Other TOCs at least generally make an effort.

 

[infobleep]

Also worth remembering that the Rainham Thameslink service still has to make a conflicting move from the Greenwich line to the Thameslink line at NK Junction, which defeated the purpose of ironing out the lines in the first place.




Well it has been suggested that it could use Cannon Street again if such a scenario arises, to be honest the real game changer for the NK line is CrossRail especially for those east of Woolwich/Abbey Wood, there have been mutterings that the Rainham service could become a Reigate service but pretty sure that’s replacing a Gatwick stopper another one is that it could be rerouted to run via Blackheath then onto Woolwich and beyond, I don’t believe anything is set in stone

When you say replacing a Gatwick stopper, do you mean fewer services from Redhill to Gatwick Airport?

 

[Kite159]

When you say replacing a Gatwick stopper, do you mean fewer services from Redhill to Gatwick Airport?

I believe the idea before Covid was the current Bedford - Gatwick 'stopper' would be diverted to Reigate with the new bay platform and the Southern Reigate service sent to Gatwick/Three Bridges instead calling at all the stations south of Redhill, solely to remove a 4 coach unit (as the Southern service could have been 8 coaches).

 

[NorthKent1989]

When you say replacing a Gatwick stopper, do you mean fewer services from Redhill to Gatwick Airport?

What @Kite159 said, it would have been a switch.

 

[Doomotron]

A lot of people say that TFL would make a positive impact, but what could they actually do that other operators can't?