Southeastern to Waterloo Mainline (29/8~1/9/17, next Xmas 2017)

[Alteran Ancient]

I'm slightly surprised there isn't a discussion about this already, but between the dates of the 29th of August and 1st of September, it would appear that Southeastern will be borrowing Waterloo Mainline as a diversionary terminus whilst the London Bridge blockade is underway.

I originally assumed this was some kind of error, but I've had several people confirm this now, and publicity appears to have been updated to quietly include this information.

It looks like someone in the planning department has remembered that the Waterloo curve off of the Chatham line actually still exists. What I'm not currently sure about is: Which services will actually serve Waterloo? North Kent services will likely continue to use Cannon Street and/or Blackfriars, but as Victoria probably cannot take all the slack like it normally does during engineering weekends, I would imagine that it would be down to the Hastings services, and the Dover services.

This is just guesswork - the timetables aren't likely to be published until June, and I don't know what kind of driver training or familiarisation is going on in the background in preparation.

Whether this is just a once-in-a-lifetime change, or a potential trial run of future engineering/disruption contingencies, I'm sure a few spotters would like to get down there when this is happening.

 

[GW43125]

Since 2010, there has been no DC on the Waterloo curve, which is probably the main reason for it not being used. As they are reinstating Linford Street substation as part of this project, it may be available in future. Watch this space.

 

[Class 170101]

Well I hope that the other project will be sufficiently complete to allow this to happen.

(Hint the other project is at Waterloo)

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm slightly surprised there isn't a discussion about this already, but between the dates of the 29th of August and 1st of September, it would appear that Southeastern will be borrowing Waterloo Mainline as a diversionary terminus whilst the London Bridge blockade is underway.

I originally assumed this was some kind of error, but I've had several people confirm this now, and publicity appears to have been updated to quietly include this information.

It looks like someone in the planning department has remembered that the Waterloo curve off of the Chatham line actually still exists. What I'm not currently sure about is: Which services will actually serve Waterloo? North Kent services will likely continue to use Cannon Street and/or Blackfriars, but as Victoria probably cannot take all the slack like it normally does during engineering weekends, I would imagine that it would be down to the Hastings services, and the Dover services.

This is just guesswork - the timetables aren't likely to be published until June, and I don't know what kind of driver training or familiarisation is going on in the background in preparation.

Whether this is just a once-in-a-lifetime change, or a potential trial run of future engineering/disruption contingencies, I'm sure a few spotters would like to get down there when this is happening.

This is interesting...

I must say I'm surprised at this, for several reasons. I understood Waterloo is pretty much at full capacity in the peaks with its existing traffic. Nobody at SE or SWT currently signs the link from Linford St junction down to the SW mainline as far as I know. It looks like it hasn't been used for years since Eurostar services ceased...

This arrangement would require a SWT conductor driver for each and every SE train.*

I can't help but think it may be a mistake. Surely easier to simply increase services into Vic,
which has some spare capacity, when CH+ and CST are closed, as is regularly done at weekends when engineering works block LB.

*then again, I understand this has been provided for GWR services in the past, so perhaps it is possible.

 

[ComUtoR]

Interesting.

What stock is allowed down that route and which Drivers at SE will actually sign the route.

 

[Bromley boy]

Interesting.

What stock is allowed down that route and which Drivers at SE will actually sign the route.

That's a point. Can networkers/375/6s do it?

Someone should check the s*xual appendage. Mine's currently unserviceable due to a cracked iPad screen!

 

[louis97]

Last I heard was it would be the Dover/Ramsgate via Tonbridge services, two trains per hour, being route conducted to/from Denmark Hill. Services would run along the Windsor Reversible to/from the Waterloo International platforms.

Possession towards the end of July to get the curve up and running again.

This was at the beginning of March, so may have changed slightly.

 

[ComUtoR]

That's a point. Can networkers/375/6s do it?

Someone should check the s*xual appendage. Mine's currently unserviceable due to a cracked iPad screen!

There is a big red X on the junction stating 'no networkers' I would also guess that anything that does get sent that way will need route certification.

Considering that Waterloo East is a couple of minutes walk away I don't really see the point. You could just as easily link the Chatham going via Beck Junction. Charing Cross Via Bromley South has always interested me.

If the planners were now starting to think outside the box. Could they link Clapham Junction or other routes via Stewarts Lane ? Not sure of the point again as you can easily change at Denmark Hill for a London Overground service.

 

[GW43125]

That's a point. Can networkers/375/6s do it?

Someone should check the s*xual appendage. Mine's currently unserviceable due to a cracked iPad screen!

Just had a look, as of November 2016, 377s are (or were) banned between Clapham (Windsor) and Waterloo. No word on notworkers (though this is only the publicly available PON, I can't speak for what's actually in the NESA).

 

[fairysdad]

This is interesting...

I must say I'm surprised at this, for several reasons. I understood Waterloo is pretty much at full capacity in the peaks with its existing traffic. Nobody at SE or SWT currently signs the link from Linford St junction down to the SW mainline as far as I know. It looks like it hasn't been used for years since Eurostar services ceased...

I believe the summer works at Waterloo to extend platforms 1-4 will be finished by then. During the works, the former Eurostar platforms are going to be used by SWT. If the works have finished, the SWT services will be back to their normal platforms, and the Eurostar platforms will no longer be required. I would assume then that before they close again to finish the works, they will be used by these diverted services.

This is, however, a complete guess!

 

[GW43125]

I believe the summer works at Waterloo to extend platforms 1-4 will be finished by then. During the works, the former Eurostar platforms are going to be used by SWT. If the works have finished, the SWT services will be back to their normal platforms, and the Eurostar platforms will no longer be required. I would assume then that before they close again to finish the works, they will be used by these diverted services.

This is, however, a complete guess!

I've been told they are to use platform 21 at Waterloo; this will be in the period between the upgrade being completed and the international station closing again to be completed.

Don't hold me to it though.

 

[fairysdad]

I've been told they are to use platform 21 at Waterloo; this will be in the period between the upgrade being completed and the international station closing again to be completed.

Don't hold me to it though.

Pretty much the same as what I just said then!

(Only slightly more succinct...)

 

[GW43125]

Pretty much the same as what I just said then!

(Only slightly more succinct...)

I was tired when I wrote it!

 

[theironroad]

Well I hope that the other project will be sufficiently complete to allow this to happen.

(Hint the other project is at Waterloo)

Absolutely.

Where's the contingency that the waterloo overruns by a day or two and full use of 20-24 is still needed?

From my understanding, Waterloo block finishes on 28/8 and southeastern are going to start using Waterloo 29/8. Well at least the franchise handover will have been done 9 days before..

 

[bb21]

It isn't a mistake, but don't get your hopes up yet.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If I'm interpreting the Sectional Appendix correctly SouthEastern's Electrostars are banned outright from Waterloo and their Networkers are basically banned from the ex International platforms. For the networkers in the notes it has:

R1 Prohibited Waterloo platforms 21 and 23
R2 Prohibited Waterloo platform 24

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Considering that Waterloo East is a couple of minutes walk away I don't really see the point. You could just as easily link the Chatham going via Beck Junction. Charing Cross Via Bromley South has always interested me.

Isn't the point that London Bridge is blockaded so there wouldn't be anything at Waterloo East in the first place?

 

[Ianno87]

I believe the summer works at Waterloo to extend platforms 1-4 will be finished by then. During the works, the former Eurostar platforms are going to be used by SWT. If the works have finished, the SWT services will be back to their normal platforms, and the Eurostar platforms will no longer be required. I would assume then that before they close again to finish the works, they will be used by these diverted services.

This is, however, a complete guess!

Once the August blockade is over, the former Eurostar platforms will come out of operational use once again (temporarily) for final fit-out ahead of full regular, timetabled peak use from (I think) December.

That means for the period of Southeastern diversions, Platforms 20-24 will be available for use (before final fit out works start immediately afterwards), as will the Windsor Reversible line between Nine Elms and Waterloo (which has little if any SWT timetabled use).

So Southeastern can have a 'dedicated' access in and out of 20-24 via the Windsor Reversible for a limited service (say 4tph max per direction) without interacting with First SW services.

 

[TEW]

If I'm interpreting the Sectional Appendix correctly SouthEastern's Electrostars are banned outright from Waterloo and their Networkers are basically banned from the ex International platforms. For the networkers in the notes it has:

There would never have been any reason to clear Electrostars for the route in to Waterloo before though. Just because they aren't permitted, it doesn't necessarily mean there are any major obstacles to clearing them.

 

[theageofthetra]

Isn't the point that London Bridge is blockaded so there wouldn't be anything at Waterloo East in the first place?

Correct. This blockade also includes some working days during Aug which is why every option will be looked at.

 

[bb21]

Current Sectional Appendix entries are pretty meaningless in any case in this context, as the international platforms are being worked on at the moment, so once completed for the August period, stock clearance can be done accordingly.

 

[jopsuk]

There would never have been any reason to clear Electrostars for the route in to Waterloo before though. Just because they aren't permitted, it doesn't necessarily mean there are any major obstacles to clearing them.

Exactly. Presumably the preparatory work for this operation will be:
1. Restore the power supply
2. Run the gauging train over it to check
3. Run, carefully, whatever classes they want to use along the route
4. check if there's any scrape marks...

 

[ComUtoR]

Isn't the point that London Bridge is blockaded so there wouldn't be anything at Waterloo East in the first place?

Cheers Peter. I thought this was a permanent thing and not specifically for the blockade.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Where's the contingency that the Waterloo overruns by a day or two and full use of 20-24 is still needed?

How about: 'What's the betting that the Waterloo overruns by a day or two and full use of 20-24 is still needed?'

 

[dctraindriver]

Since 2010, there has been no DC on the Waterloo curve, which is probably the main reason for it not being used. As they are reinstating Linford Street substation as part of this project, it may be available in future. Watch this space.

Well last week there was a block on Battersea Flyover on the Waterloo Curves so maybe something is going on?

 

[Class 466]

There is a big red X on the junction stating 'no networkers' I would also guess that anything that does get sent that way will need route certification.

Considering that Waterloo East is a couple of minutes walk away I don't really see the point. You could just as easily link the Chatham going via Beck Junction. Charing Cross Via Bromley South has always interested me.

If the planners were now starting to think outside the box. Could they link Clapham Junction or other routes via Stewarts Lane ? Not sure of the point again as you can easily change at Denmark Hill for a London Overground service.

Seen as Charing X - London Bridge is shut for 8 days, there definitely is a point to it.

Test Trains will be running into Waterloo in a month or so's time during the day (SX).

Plan is to use 375s in 8 car formations (increasing to 12 in the peaks). The next opportunity after August may well be December when Charing Cross, Cannon Street, London Bridge (both levels) and Blackfriars are closed over Christmas for TLP works. Victoria won't be able to take all the services on the SE side so we shall have to wait and see.

 

[GW43125]

Well last week there was a block on Battersea Flyover on the Waterloo Curves so maybe something is going on?

As I said, Linford St Substation is being reinstated to provide DC. Not sure if trackwork will be necessary.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Seen as Charing X - London Bridge is shut for 8 days, there definitely is a point to it.

Test Trains will be running into Waterloo in a month or so's time during the day (SX).

Plan is to use 375s in 8 car formations (increasing to 12 in the peaks). The next opportunity after August may well be December when Charing Cross, Cannon Street, London Bridge (both levels) and Blackfriars are closed over Christmas for TLP works. Victoria won't be able to take all the services on the SE side so we shall have to wait and see.

Also by December wont the ex-international platforms will be closed again for further upgrade works?

 

[Class 466]

Also by December wont the ex-international platforms will be closed again for further upgrade works?

They may well be, the test trains in May/June will be using the existing Station anyway.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

They may well be, the test trains in May/June will be using the existing Station anyway.

Ok thanks for the extra info on the earlier test trains, I was referring to the majority of the posts on this thread that seemed to discuss platforms 20-24