Southern 313s and 508s

[Helvellyn]

Well i can't be sure, but i believe the ones not inoperation will be refurbished and the seats will come from the class 377/3s.

Now new seating (even from the 377/3s) to me implies a refurbishment rather than a refresh, especially as it would change the seating layout. Guess we'll have to wait for the first unit to emerge next summer.

 

[Fincra5]

Yeah . People like me are going to be stuck with untouched ones for a few months

 

[Electrostar]

I seem to recall SouthEastern "refreshed" rather than "refurbished" their Networkers so they didn't have to install disabled toilets. I know the Silverlink-Southern stock don't have toilets but might Southern be using the term to also get around some disabilty compliance issues?

 

[Fincra5]

Southern arent going to install any toilets on the 313s during refurbishment. On the basis they are used on short stopping services.

 

[Electrostar]

I realise that but I meant could there be similar issues as to why they chose the phrase refresh?

 

[A60K]

Things like PIS, wheelchair spaces, new seats and so on is what I would call a refurbishment. The Class 315s were refreshed rather than refurbished, meaning yellow panelling being replaced by pink, new seat covers, CCTV and not a lot else. I fear this sort of refresh is all that's planned for the Southern Class 313s, but I would be happy to be proved wrong!

 

[O L Leigh]

An NXEA Cl315 style "refresh" would do the Cl313's proud.

It may not look like much was actually done, but it was a much more thorough job than either Southern or SWT did with their Cl455's (as I'm getting increasingly tired of saying).

O L Leigh

 

[A60K]

Fair enough that there was much more technical stuff done 'behind the scenes' to the Class 315s other than the refresh of the passenger compartment, but in the context of the discussion I was referring to how much the passenger will see a Class 313 turn into a Class 377 lookalike.

If a 'refresh' is what's planned then I expect the end result will be internal panelling replaced, seat covers replaced and a few other improvements. I wouldn't expect carpets, internal layout changes, visual and audio PIS, high-back seats, air-conditioning(!) or anything like that.

 

[O L Leigh]

I think you were initially being a little more disparaging than that, but under the circumstances I'll let it go.

For the record, the Cl315 "refurb" saw an almost complete replacement of all internal surfaces. Internal wall and ceiling panels were either completely renewed or replaced, the flooring is new and the door control and operation systems are completely new. In fact, about the only things not to be different as a consequence of the refurb are the seat frames and squabs (though the moquette was replaced), and the heat/vent systems. Pretty much everything else is either completely new or properly refurbished. Such upgrades would be worthy of the Cl313's and would help to improve their reliability enormously.

Then again, I hope someone connected to Southern's driver training programme has spotted that the Cl313's have camshafts rather than thyristors and understands what that means for poor sods who actually have to drive the damn things.

O L Leigh

 

[Helvellyn]

They won't replace internal panelling, they'll just spray a paint coating on the existing yellow laminate.

As to the Class 455 refurbishment, there isn't lots you could do behind the scenes as they are in essence slam door technology with their reclaimed EE507 traction motors. Still a shame they kept those low-backed seats on the 315s - on our 455s before refurbishment you'd quite often find the seat cushions thrown about the carriage, or even out of the windows! Class 313/314/315/507/508 units are all pretty robust, and have certainly done the job they were designed to do very well. I think when we see the first of these being scrapped it will seem a little odd. Hopefully the NRM will claim a 313 as an example of BR's first production run second generation EMU design.

 

[O L Leigh]

Yes, the seat squabs are a bit of a pain with the Cl315's. It's not unusual to pass a few in the cess on the way up to town. Then again, the squabs on the Cl317/5's and Cl317/8's are no more secure.

Southern/SWT could have done a bit more with the Cl455's than they did. Granted there isn't much wrong with the traction equipment, and in that respect the Cl315 refurb was much the same. However, the troublesome pneumatic door system and door treadplates were replaced with an all-electric system and a newer design of treadplate that has made the doors so much more reliable. They are also harder to "pull" because they are physically latched shut.

Other works included lifting and renewing the floor coverings for the first time and dealing with the corrosion. They were also stripped right back before being repainted, so there are no vestiges of the WAGN/FGE, NSE or BR liveries underneath the 'one' blue. They also received new cab switchgear, cab lighting and cab A/C as well as having the draughty old nose-end doors sealed up.

While the Cl315 stopped a good way short of providing either passengers or drivers with a completely new environment, they were in every other respect a thorough programme of works. By comparison, the various Cl455 programmes simply addressed the train's appearance rather than it's performance.

O L Leigh

 

[Pumbaa]

Then again, I hope someone connected to Southern's driver training programme has spotted that the Cl313's have camshafts rather than thyristors and understands what that means for poor sods who actually have to drive the damn things.

Could you elaborate? I'm interested!

 

[O L Leigh]

Camshafts are a mechanical system as used in older electric traction. I believe they also used to be known as tap-changers. Basically they provide all the power control inputs from the driver to the motors.

The practical implication is that you have to use a different technique when controlling the power. On a Cl315, or any other unit that has thyristors, you can give it notch 4 coming out of a station and then just go right back to notch 2 for cruising once up to linespeed. Try that in a Cl313 and the unit will still give notch 4 power. you have to shut off power first and then select notch 2.

O L Leigh

 

[Pumbaa]

Gotcha. Ta very.

 

[Aictos]

An NXEA Cl315 style "refresh" would do the Cl313's proud.

It may not look like much was actually done, but it was a much more thorough job than either Southern or SWT did with their Cl455's (as I'm getting increasingly tired of saying).

O L Leigh

I've seen both unrefurbished 315s and refubished 315s, thanks to Wikipedia and the refurbished ones look like new trains.

Unrefurbished

Refurbished

What lights do they now use as opposed to the ones on the unrefurbished ones? They look very impressive!

 

[klewer]

Both of the 315's in the pictures are refreshed ones - the unit with the larger headlights is one of the few that First Great Eastern refreshed previously in 2003/4.

 

[Pumbaa]

You need to take a look inside to see the full refresh.

 

[90019]

What lights do they now use as opposed to the ones on the unrefurbished ones?!

I remember seeing a photo of one with those lights and thinking they looked a bit odd.

i think they're the later light cluster style from the Turbostars and Electrostars (With the LED marker lights as opposed to the halogen ones on the originals)

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I've seen both unrefurbished 315s and refubished 315s, thanks to Wikipedia and the refurbished ones look like new trains.

Unrefurbished

Refurbished

What lights do they now use as opposed to the ones on the unrefurbished ones? They look very impressive!

Bloody "Electrostar" headlight design.

I prefer the original headlights for them personally.

 

[Aictos]

I disagree, I like the FGE refurbs.

 

[MCR247]

Bloody "Electrostar" headlight design.

They are the best lights! They make Turbos & Electro*s look so much smarter. And then the electrostar sound.....

 

[delt1c]

There seems to be many postings on here regarding the 315 refurbishment and many experts. How many of these posters are actualy daily users of these units? Yes the interiors may seem little changed but as they perform day in and day out the task that they were designed for then why change them.
I commute daily on these units and whilst the SWT refurbs and 313 high back refurbs may provide a more comfortable seat for those lucky enough to get a seat, in peak times they lead to a more claustraphobic enviroment. The NatEA units provide an unobstucted interior even when crush loaded and the lo back seating aids loading and unloading times. As I have said before visit Tottenham hale or stratford in the peaks and see how quickly a 315 can load and unload.
To those who are only accasional users of the units dont critise as these are the modern day Subs. HANDS OFF

 

[jon0844]

I prefer a FCC 313 but to be honest, these trains are rock solid and a testament to quality engineering (even if I personally don't like the colour scheme on the inside of a 315 - but others may prefer it, so who am I to judge?).

I'd like to see how the latest crop of plastic trains last for the best part of 35 years!

 

[Fincra5]

Southern do plan to refurbish the 313s but it wont be for a while. I believe the refresh includes new seat covers, panels repainted and not much else. Only brighton-seaford and brighton-westworthing will be getting 313s from may leaving the others to be refreshed. Then i think the plan is to refurbish the deep cleaned ones, leaving the refreshed ones to take over said routes.

During refurbishment it is likely the 313s will have the "electorstar" headlights as they are much better and brighter, providing better light for drivers. PIS and cctv will be installed, ( i think cctv will be installed on refreshed units). However toilets or air-con wont be fitted, they are going to be left with the awful hopper windows .

 

[O L Leigh]

No need to go the whole hog and fit Electrostar style light clusters. Just swap the awful BR spec headlight for a HID replacement as NXEA have done on their Cl315's, Cl317/5's and Cl317/8's. These are miles better and a cheaper solution to boot.

O L Leigh

 

[Drsatan]

they are going to be left with the awful hopper windows .

I don't think hopper windows are "awful" because if the 313s will just be used on Brighton - West Worthing and Seaford workings, there's going to be no point in installing air conditioning which would probably break down anyway. Toilets should be installed on them anyway given that if you get off at Seaford at midnight and need a ****, then the station toilet won't be open.

 

[Fincra5]

Well from experience of 319s the windows slam shut in a tunnel.

Fitting toilets is most likely to expensive.

 

[jon0844]

The windows slam shut only if another train comes through the tunnel, in my experience.

Fitting air con would obviously have many benefits, but you don't go doing that on a 30+ year old train unless you're expecting it to go on for another 30+ years.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

They are the best lights! They make Turbos & Electro*s look so much smarter. And then the electrostar sound.....

I agree they look lovely on "Electrostar" EMUs but on a Class 315 I am not to keen.

 

[MCR247]

I think it looks ok. But still better than the old ones