Southern (and other TOCs) - crew unavailable

[cfsuarc]

I am really puzzled, more so the more I see this, how Southern often confess that the 'crew' i.e. driver (as there is no conductor on those specific London Metro departures) is 'unavailable' and people don't seem to raise eyebrows.
Flights or coach trips don't routinely get cancelled for such reasons, supermarkets and coffee shops don't shut their doors because the 'cashier is unwell'.. all because there is backup staff, not because they are somehow a lot less prone to falling ill or busy with family matters.

Yet at London Bridge and other stations it's an at least weekly occurence that the train is cancelled. :-x In my experience it's mostly Southern but I remember two or three times with other London/SE TOCs.

What might be the reason for this bizarre reason/excuse for cancellations? Are they running on 1x the staff with no short-notice temps?

 

[Agent_c]

I am really puzzled, more so the more I see this, how Southern often confess that the 'crew' i.e. driver (as there is no conductor on those specific London Metro departures) is 'unavailable' and people don't seem to raise eyebrows.
Flights or coach trips don't routinely get cancelled for such reasons, supermarkets and coffee shops don't shut their doors because the 'cashier is unwell'.. all because there is backup staff, not because they are somehow a lot less prone to falling ill or busy with family matters.

Yet at London Bridge and other stations it's an at least weekly occurence that the train is cancelled. :-x In my experience it's mostly Southern but I remember two or three times with other London/SE TOCs.

What might be the reason for this bizarre reason/excuse for cancellations? Are they running on 1x the staff with no short-notice temps?

My understanding is that train operation is not like a car, or even a coach at all - you simply aren't able to jump in and away you go with nothing more than a list of all the turns you need to take... Drivers have to be signed off on a particular route. If no drivers are qualified to operate that route, the service cannot run. You could have 20 spare drivers, but at least one of em has to be clear to run that route to avoid cancellation.

Is the railway also similar to air travel in that you have to be signed off for a particular vehicle type too? (ie- a 737 pilot can't just jump into a 747).

 

[Mojo]

A train driver has to have specific knowledge of the stock, and knowledge of the route. Training can take in excess of a year.

A train operator will have more staff than they need to run the train service, this is to cover for training, absence, discipline, union release and annual leave, amongst other things. You can also often expect there to be "spares" sat around waiting for something to cover; this can be as a result of late-notice absence or lateness, or because of service disruption that means train crew aren't where they are supposed to be at a certain time.

 

[physics34]

A train driver has to have specific knowledge of the stock, and knowledge of the route. Training can take in excess of a year.

A train operator will have more staff than they need to run the train service, this is to cover for training, absence, discipline, union release and annual leave, amongst other things. You can also often expect there to be "spares" sat around waiting for something to cover; this can be as a result of late-notice absence or lateness, or because of service disruption that means train crew aren't where they are supposed to be at a certain time.

At the moment though, all spares are used mostly on a daily basis, which basically means they need to employ more spares! They also rely on overtime, as itscheaper than employingextra staff and the training + pension that they will need etc etc

 

[ComUtoR]

I am on an incoming service but my next working is a different unit. If I am delayed for any reason or my unit doesn't make it then the unit standing on the platform will have no Driver. "Crew Unavailable"

 

[the sniper]

Certainly where I am there are far less spare turns than there were say, 10 years ago. Certainly less than BR days. The diagrams are also much longer and much more intense that they once were, which discourages people from doing rest day work or staying over their day. I'd say the '12 hour men' are a dying breed... This on a railway that still relies on overtime to operate on a daily basis. They can't have it both ways.

Train crew being unavailable is the price you pay for 'efficiency'.

 

[FordFocus]

I've seen my favourite cafe close at 5 instead of 7 because of staffing issues far too frequently, so I wouldn't quite say the railway industry is alone in this respect.

The Sniper raises good points. Traincrew work on individual diagrams on which routes, traction and services they are working. Instead of working a train to x destination having a 35 minute turnaround (to allow for late running) and then working another train to y destination, the TOC will buy some software to calculate all routes, drivers, traction and make the diagrams more 'efficient'. So instead of that 35 minute turn around you know have a 7 minute turn around, that way the TOC can slowly save money on staffing costs and require less the staff.

The 3 major downfalls of this are..

1) If the inbound train is late, your most certainly going to have a late outbound train with more knock on effects because the recovery time for traincrew is reduced to save money
2) If the traincrew are late they have to take a minimum required break
3) A lot of TOCs rely on overtime as it's cheaper than employing more full time staff to sit cover or spare to cover services encase it goes wrong during disruption. As the diagrams become more intense and longer it can becoming fatiguing more so people don't want to work overtime on their days off.

It's the same with any industry, people go sick or have a family emergency to attend to. I went to the dentist the other day after booking a day off work for an operation only for the dentist to not be in the surgery that day due to been sick.

 

[Greenback]

Diagrams seem pretty complicated these days, and just because a train is cancelled because a member of train crew is unavailable it doesn't mean that someone is ill or absent because of a family problem. It's far more likely that they are delayed on an other service and there are no spare still left sitting around. Or that there isn't one cleared for the route or traction.

 

[dk1]

I think much of the trouble stems from the fact their is too much information constantly given out on Twitter these days & that the set script can be misleading. Often at weekends when it is sent out that a service is cancelled due to no traincrew gives the impression that he/she didn't bother to turn up & so you get the usual punter replies that 'I'd be sacked if I didn't turn up for work' when in fact that turn has been uncovered since Thursday when the roster was posted. It's either down to not enough spare or standby crews or simply the fact many are fed up with the overtime & actually want some time off.

 

[Greenback]

I agree with you, dk1. It all gives the impression that the crew can't be bothered, when it's more often the case that the TOC don't have sufficient trained resource to cover all the turns without relying on overtime, because it's cheaper for them than employing enough spares.

The key word seems to be 'unavailable'. This might be true if people elect not to do overtime, as they have made themselves unavailable, but the underlying cause is not enough staff, and saying so would help passengers see the true picture.

 

[theironroad]

If a shop should have 5 people on duty but ony 4 are 'available' then chances are customers may not notice a lot of difference, maybe a slightly longer wait to be served. Airlines do cancel services because pilots or a full complement of cabin crew are not available or are over their hours.

I do prefer 'due to a temporary shortage of traincrew' to train crew 'unavailable'. It really does sound like that the crew are sitting at home thinking, I can't be bothered going in today cos it's raining.

As 'the sniper' says, it's all about 'efficiency'. Tocs don't like too many people sitting around spare, so try to cut it back to the least number they can. However, rosters can also mean that there a few spares during one part of the day, but 10 hours later there are none...

 

[Greenback]

It's all about money.

In BR days there were cancelled trains because BR had recruitment problems, especially in London and the South East. Nowadays, there are plenty of applicants for railway jobs, but the better salaries on offer means that staff are unlikely to rely on overtime to provide them with a good wage and a decent standard of living.

Yet still TOC's like to keep the number of spare crew to an absolute minimum, because it;s cheaper to cover turns by overtime. So, when there are absences due to training, jury service, armed forces responsibilities or whatever, in addition to the usual annual leave and sickness, the result will inevitably be cancellations.

I'd prefer a shortage ot train crew to a member of train crew being unavailable, too.

 

[HH]

Certainly where I am there are far less spare turns than there were say, 10 years ago. Certainly less than BR days. The diagrams are also much longer and much more intense that they once were, which discourages people from doing rest day work or staying over their day. I'd say the '12 hour men' are a dying breed... This on a railway that still relies on overtime to operate on a daily basis. They can't have it both ways.

Train crew being unavailable is the price you pay for 'efficiency'.

Driver cover ratios have generally increased, in many cases substantially, since BR days. On average I'd say it was about 15% higher.

If cover really is worse then it suggests that driver efficiency is a lot worse than it used to be. This despite all the efficiency gains that TOCs have bought over the years...

 

[Greenback]

Efficiency is definitely better than it was, Could it be that BR had a shortage of drivers because of the recruitment difficulties I mentioned earlier? In 1992 BR were concerned at the lack of applicants for driving roles, and were trying to make the job more attractive!

 

[A-driver]

A problem which FCC always had and GTR is still having due to FCC is that they are happy to understaff (up to 2/3rds employed of the actual establishment they need at a driver depot) and rely solely on drivers working overtime to cover the rest. For this they offer drivers very generous overtime rates as an incentive to give up days off. FCC/GN&TL offer £50 booking on bonus plus time+15% for working a rest day. This allows them to save money by understaffing and means there is always a good stream of volunteers to cover the open turns.

But then the downside is that at certain times (Xmas, school holidays and especially July-August) less drivers will volunteer to work days off as they want to spend time with family and friends and when combined with the maximum annual leave quota being used most days (especially Friday and Saturday) they simply can't cover jobs. At some GN depots over the past few weeks Friday and Saturday sheets have shown up to half of all jobs uncovered. They will often cover most of that with last minute volunteers and bolting on bits to other people's jobs by offering them lots of extra pay but even if 1 job remains uncovered it could mean all 6 trains on that diagram are cancelled plus the coaches are in the wrong place leading to 3 other cancelations.

 

[Yabbadabba]

This is not only restricted to train crew, we had to shut a signalling panel down overnight in a major signalling centre the other week due to staff shortages. A combination of annual leave, sickness, medical restrictions, a couple of death in services this year and family bereavement with gaps all over the roster. The new replacement staff that we've got so far aren't productive yet due length of training required. All staff that were willing to work overtime 12hrs or rest days were in use, shift managers were taken off their duties to over panels and it still wasn't enough, so panel had to shut (close out). You can only employ enough staff to cover all known duties and have enough GPR staff to cover all known AL and CL with a small bit extra just in case and I should imagine it's the same with train crew (with their spare turns being actual duties that need to be covered in the same way as any other driving turn).

 

[Greenback]

Unexpected incidents such as death in service, medical restrictions and accidents can all impact on a roster. Again, though, I'd say that this was a shortage of staff rather than unavailable staff.

TOC's might prefer the latter wording because as we've already mentioned, it implies that it's down to the staff themselves as opposed to the former wording, which implies it's more the TOC's fault.

 

[tony6499]

Certainly where I am there are far less spare turns than there were say, 10 years ago. Certainly less than BR days. The diagrams are also much longer and much more intense that they once were, which discourages people from doing rest day work or staying over their day. I'd say the '12 hour men' are a dying breed... This on a railway that still relies on overtime to operate on a daily basis. They can't have it both ways.

Train crew being unavailable is the price you pay for 'efficiency'.

Very much so, I remember in BR days we had 5 cover turns at the depot, when I retired there were 2.

Bean counters see cover & spare turns as not productive so they put pressure on to cut them and the result is delays and cancellations.

 

[GM228]

A problem which FCC always had and GTR is still having due to FCC is that they are happy to understaff (up to 2/3rds employed of the actual establishment they need at a driver depot) and rely solely on drivers working overtime to cover the rest. For this they offer drivers very generous overtime rates as an incentive to give up days off. FCC/GN&TL offer £50 booking on bonus plus time+15% for working a rest day. This allows them to save money by understaffing and means there is always a good stream of volunteers to cover the open turns.

But then the downside is that at certain times (Xmas, school holidays and especially July-August) less drivers will volunteer to work days off as they want to spend time with family and friends and when combined with the maximum annual leave quota being used most days (especially Friday and Saturday) they simply can't cover jobs. At some GN depots over the past few weeks Friday and Saturday sheets have shown up to half of all jobs uncovered. They will often cover most of that with last minute volunteers and bolting on bits to other people's jobs by offering them lots of extra pay but even if 1 job remains uncovered it could mean all 6 trains on that diagram are cancelled plus the coaches are in the wrong place leading to 3 other cancelations.

And then those stranded trains may be needed somewhere (rather than wanted) requiring another driver be robbed from his/her link resulting in more cancelations and delay minutes-it could just keep going and going, one missing driver/guard could cause massive cancellations and delays that go on for hours and could even take days to get sets etc. back to normal.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I used to work all of my rest days & overtime that I could, then my lot dumped on me, so that stopped.

I had probably an extra very useful extra 250 route miles on my route ticket too, which I maintained through route refreshers, again that stopped when they dumped on me too.

Now, I don't do any overtime, rest days or favours anymore. With my lot it has become blatantly obvious to me the more you do for them, the more they take advantage & the more they take you & your "extra" bits of route & traction knowledge for granted and I think you'll find that more & more commonplace on today's network and when you add in the more intense & longer diagrams, with antisocial start & finish times, it all takes its toll on you & your health.

You don't get thanked for SPADding or overshooting, failing to call etc, in fact they come down on you like the proverbial ton of bricks for the slightest misdemeanor these days, so that just adds to their problems, because then all the staff will do is go sick with stress. Been there, done that.

Then there's the issue of ROP, which are constantly being cut back on, so by the time you do your shift, unless it's paid at Tx1½ or greater, it's not worth doing as the taxman wants a darn great cut, then there's pension & NI to come out of it too, so in reality you're working an extra day for less than a normal day's pay. So is it any wonder that staff tell them where to shove a turn? I think not.

 

[A-driver]

I used to work all of my rest days & overtime that I could, then my lot dumped on me, so that stopped.



I had probably an extra very useful extra 250 route miles on my route ticket too, which I maintained through route refreshers, again that stopped when they dumped on me too.



Now, I don't do any overtime, rest days or favours anymore. With my lot it has become blatantly obvious to me the more you do for them, the more they take advantage & the more they take you & your "extra" bits of route & traction knowledge for granted and I think you'll find that more & more commonplace on today's network and when you add in the more intense & longer diagrams, with antisocial start & finish times, it all takes its toll on you & your health.



You don't get thanked for SPADding or overshooting, failing to call etc, in fact they come down on you like the proverbial ton of bricks for the slightest misdemeanor these days, so that just adds to their problems, because then all the staff will do is go sick with stress. Been there, done that.



Then there's the issue of ROP, which are constantly being cut back on, so by the time you do your shift, unless it's paid at Tx1½ or greater, it's not worth doing as the taxman wants a darn great cut, then there's pension & NI to come out of it too, so in reality you're working an extra day for less than a normal day's pay. So is it any wonder that staff tell them where to shove a turn? I think not.

That's a very good point. Obviously FCC found out how quickly good will can dry up when they decided to withdraw the agreed pay offer a number of years back leading to drivers deciding not to spend every day off driving their trains for them. Led to emergency timetables and commuter chaos.

If you are going to rely on OT to run a service you need to make sure you treat your staff well otherwise why would anyone bother?!

 

[HH]

A problem which FCC always had and GTR is still having due to FCC is that they are happy to understaff (up to 2/3rds employed of the actual establishment they need at a driver depot) and rely solely on drivers working overtime to cover the rest.

It sounds like a good story; shame it's not actually true.

FCC ended up with not enough drivers due to sheer incompetence. Plus due to yet more incompetence, they had rosters at many depots that meant they needed RDW even when they had enough drivers.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Obviously FCC found out how quickly good will can dry up when they decided to withdraw the agreed pay offer a number of years back...

IIRC they made a 0% pay offer, because they were told to from on high. The then MD, Jim Morgan, should have stood up and told Aberdeen how daft it was (as everyone knew, because NXEA had already tried it), but didn't and consequently lost his job when the brown stuff started flying. Shame, because he was a nice bloke.

 

[A-driver]

It sounds like a good story; shame it's not actually true.

FCC ended up with not enough drivers due to sheer incompetence. Plus due to yet more incompetence, they had rosters at many depots that meant they needed RDW even when they had enough drivers.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


IIRC they made a 0% pay offer, because they were told to from on high. The then MD, Jim Morgan, should have stood up and told Aberdeen how daft it was (as everyone knew, because NXEA had already tried it), but didn't and consequently lost his job when the brown stuff started flying. Shame, because he was a nice bloke.

Not quite. First group instructed FCC not to recruit more drivers but to 'manage the existing drivers better'. Can you tell us what that means if it didn't mean 'rely on OT'?!

The reason I stated GTR have the same issue is that where as FCC should have handed back a full compliment of drivers they did not so GTR are stuck clearing up fccs mess.

Bedford depot had 2/3rds of the drivers it needed for a full compliment. Kings x and Hitchin were not far off.

There were only a couple of roster changes which saw diagrams increase to a number which would require extra drivers/roster lines. And they were not that major. Especially as in increasing the diagrams the A/R went up faster than the number of jobs which meant theoretically there would be more spares to cover less turns.

Plus it's impossible to have a roster which relies on OT, the roster is based on the number of diagrams allocated to the depot. So if extra turns are allocated to a depot the lines of the roster increase. Perhaps you mean the roster expanded but the new positions were never filled?

So I will stick by what I said before being 100% true thank you! I was there at the time and serving as a union rep so present at many of the important meetings.

Whilst I'm not saying it wasn't down to sheer incompetence, it was an actual conscious effort to cover work with existing drivers rather than recruit more into the grade.

As for the payrise, as I said, the 0% offer was made following discussions in the previous pay talks which pointed at a figure for the next pay rose (unofficially). When the 0% was offered it was felt as a betrayal within the grade hence goodwill was withdrawn.

 

[infobleep]

I agree with you, dk1. It all gives the impression that the crew can't be bothered, when it's more often the case that the TOC don't have sufficient trained resource to cover all the turns without relying on overtime, because it's cheaper for them than employing enough spares.

The key word seems to be 'unavailable'. This might be true if people elect not to do overtime, as they have made themselves unavailable, but the underlying cause is not enough staff, and saying so would help passengers see the true picture.

So I assume it's cheaper to cancel trains and pay the resulting fines than employ additional staff. Perhaps the TOCs should just publicise this fact if so. They wouldn't of course.

This is not only restricted to train crew, we had to shut a signalling panel down overnight in a major signalling centre the other week due to staff shortages. A combination of annual leave, sickness, medical restrictions, a couple of death in services this year and family bereavement with gaps all over the roster. The new replacement staff that we've got so far aren't productive yet due length of training required. All staff that were willing to work overtime 12hrs or rest days were in use, shift managers were taken off their duties to over panels and it still wasn't enough, so panel had to shut (close out). You can only employ enough staff to cover all known duties and have enough GPR staff to cover all known AL and CL with a small bit extra just in case and I should imagine it's the same with train crew (with their spare turns being actual duties that need to be covered in the same way as any other driving turn).

What was the impact that night of the panel being closed?

 

[Yabbadabba]

What was the impact that night of the panel being closed?

Closed between last and first trains, so the only inpact was no LB could be granted.

 

[HH]

So I assume it's cheaper to cancel trains and pay the resulting fines than employ additional staff.

Except that it's not. Well not for a TOC like FCC anyway.

 

[redbutton]

I agree that announcing "[cancelled/delayed] due to a member of train crew being unavailable" makes it sound like the driver couldn't be bothered to turn up. "Staff shortage" would probably be better.

Even if the problem is that a driver didn't turn up (maybe called out sick, etc), that's still the company's fault. With modern data analysis, they should be able to predict with reasonable accuracy how many people will turn up on any given day and then forecast that out into the future. It's the same type of maths they use to determine advance fare quotas.

The problem is that drivers and trains aren't making the company money if they're not out carrying passengers, so the company is short-sightedly reluctant to invest in spares of either.

If the DfT were to include in franchise contracts that every uncovered diagram were to cost £100,000 (or some genuine penalty figure) on top of the fines for the cancelled trains, the TOC would be a little more motivated.

But as long as both parties are making their profits once the fines are paid, there's no such motivation.

 

[HH]

Not quite. First group instructed FCC not to recruit more drivers but to 'manage the existing drivers better'. Can you tell us what that means if it didn't mean 'rely on OT'?!

First had this wonderful new software that they thought would save 5% of diagrams. Except that it never properly worked and wasn't even ready to try for another three years. But even that wasn't the direct cause of why they ended up short of drivers. It was soon realised that the software wouldn't be ready in time.

They were short of drivers because FCC Operations stopped doing a Manpower Plan and that meant that they stopped hiring trainees. Not a single Operations Manager, including two Operations Directors, happened to notice this for about 18 months - it took an outside person to notice it. No doubt they blamed it on FirstGroup; they were hardly going to tell the Union reps it was their fault now, were they?

Plus it's impossible to have a roster which relies on OT...

It's easily possible to devise a roster that causes overtime to be needed. Hitchin was a fine example. The rest days were unbalanced such that were more spares than needed on Monday-Wednesday and not enough on Friday & Saturday. RDW would be needed on Fri/Sat even if you had a full complement of drivers. I believe that the Union reps put together those rosters.

 

[FordFocus]

First had this wonderful new software that they thought would save 5% of diagrams. Except that it never properly worked and wasn't even ready to try for another three years. But even that wasn't the direct cause of why they ended up short of drivers. It was soon realised that the software wouldn't be ready in time.

Tracsis by any chance? Seen that churn out some unbelievable diagramming which buggered up several diagrams if the first train was more than 5 minutes late. Missed travelling PASS trains, late PNBs, unable to relieve people in time

They were short of drivers because FCC Operations stopped doing a Manpower Plan and that meant that they stopped hiring trainees. Not a single Operations Manager, including two Operations Directors, happened to notice this for about 18 months - it took an outside person to notice it. No doubt they blamed it on FirstGroup; they were hardly going to tell the Union reps it was their fault now, were they?

When I've sat in driver LLC meetings management and the staff side have always put manpower plan on the agenda. Sometimes it's a quick 10 second no retirements, no vacancies and that's it or it's been a massive change in the link because of an increase in work that can take longer to calculate. I take it FCC never had these sort of meetings? 18 months is a shocking amount of time to clock this?

Like you say, FCC can't turn up at Aberdeen HQ and blame the local reps for not alerting them to a looming driver shortage crisis when you pay ops managers and directors 50k+ to manage these sort of things

It's easily possible to devise a roster that causes overtime to be needed. Hitchin was a fine example. The rest days were unbalanced such that were more spares than needed on Monday-Wednesday and not enough on Friday & Saturday. RDW would be needed on Fri/Sat even if you had a full complement of drivers. I believe that the Union reps put together those rosters.

Building a roster on RDW will always be risky, especially with driver grades when ASLEF can withdraw a RDW agreement within a weeks notice. Coupled with the insulting 0% pay rise ordered from Scotland and we then saw the result of Firsts fine mess of no staff, emergency timetables, MPs asking questions, DfT improvement notices. Bus company management that haven't a clue on how it actually works on the coalface

 

[redbutton]

ASLEF as a rule refuse to recognise RDW, so there are very few formal RDW agreements out there. I know Southern and GatEx don't have one, not sure about TL or GN.

I think the problem is not so much that the roster requires RDW, it's that it doesn't reflect reality. If everyone shows up and all the trains run on time, then it's fine. But when people are sick and/or off-track, then you get uncovered work that requires RDW to cover. Cuts to management mean that incident investigations can take weeks or months, meanwhile the driver is off-track and his work goes uncovered unless they get RDW. Even if all the work is covered, there's no spare, so if disruption eats into turn times that are already at the minimum (due to "efficient diagramming") then the only option is to cancel trains.