Southern class 313 replacement?

[mr_jrt]

Does anyone know what the plan is with the class 313s?

I have a couple of colleagues who use the west coastway services into Brighton and frequently the trains are so packed at times that apparently yesterday a train was sent out early from Brighton for safety reasons, (or so I'm told by my boss who was left on the platform at departure time after asking a member of staff where his train was).

Short of running them in pairs, the only real option for more capacity is to replace them with other, longer units, probably 377s. I had to explain to my boss why they couldn't just add more carriages Shame Southeastern's 508s got into such a state they had to be scrapped - they'd have come in quite handy for enabling services to double up until something newer can be sourced...

...but yeah, anyone know what the plan is for replacing the 313s?

 

[Manchester77]

I'd image once the southern routes have the 377/5s back from Thameslink the 377/3s could be used on coast way services with the 313s moving to GN routes since they're in better nick than the current GN 313s.

 

[Searle]

With Southern's previous record of ordering more stock, more 377's

 

[LBSCR Times]

Does anyone know what the plan is with the class 313s?

I have a couple of colleagues who use the west coastway services into Brighton and frequently the trains are so packed at times that apparently yesterday a train was sent out early from Brighton for safety reasons, (or so I'm told by my boss who was left on the platform at departure time after asking a member of staff where his train was).

Short of running them in pairs, the only real option for more capacity is to replace them with other, longer units, probably 377s. I had to explain to my boss why they couldn't just add more carriages Shame Southeastern's 508s got into such a state they had to be scrapped - they'd have come in quite handy for enabling services to double up until something newer can be sourced...

...but yeah, anyone know what the plan is for replacing the 313s?

Doubling up is not practical with 313's, due to short platforms at many of the smaller stations. Not having SDO on the units currently means that anything more than a 3 car needs the rear unit locked out of use.

Even many of the 4 car 377 workings can be full and standing from Shoreham, heading towards Brighton.....

 

[kevinwaltets]

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[BurtonM]

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Yeah, it seems the passengers need to do that

 

[TEW]

I'd image once the southern routes have the 377/5s back from Thameslink the 377/3s could be used on coast way services with the 313s moving to GN routes since they're in better nick than the current GN 313s.

Using 377/3s won't increase capacity though. The 377/3s are all tied up at the moment making up 10-carriage formations in the Metro area anyway. It's probably more likely that 4-car 377s could be displaced.

 

[zn1]

313's can be easily made in to two car units...the PTS is there for AC use...not alot else..

313034 ran onthe new lines as a two car unit when the networker test unit was at clacton, 034's PTS was augmented in to 316999.

 

[TheGrew]

Could a 313 work merseyrail which has a long term aspiration for dual voltage stock? Mind you I doubt the ohle will go up before the trains retire....

 

[Chris125]

I believe the plan is for the Southern 313 fleet to be absorbed into the Great Northern fleet to increase capacity into Moorgate, presumably as part of the internal cascades brought about by the new 700 fleet.

Chris

 

[zn1]

same body profile as 507/8...happily be at home in scouseland....

 

[8J]

Would love the 313's to emigrate to Liverpool! Would mean expansion projects like Bidston - Wrexham etc could in theory go ahead. In fact, it was a 313 unit that did some testing on the Southport line prior to the 507/8's arriving in the late 70's.

 

[hwl]

Using 377/3s won't increase capacity though. The 377/3s are all tied up at the moment making up 10-carriage formations in the Metro area anyway. It's probably more likely that 4-car 377s could be displaced.

Indeed. The limit on the number of 10 car metro services run (which need SDO) would currently appear to involve making sure all the 455s are still usefully occupied?
So if some 455 were swapped from Metro to Coastway everywhere could get more capacity from the existing stock?

 

[jopsuk]

Can we repeat the reality:

The introduction of the 700s on the expanded Thameslink will see 377s displaced; these will go (amongest other places) to the coast, whilst the 313s (unless current plans change) will be united with the rest of the fleet on the Moorgate Great Northerns, possibly formed into semi-permanent 6-car sets.

The liklihood of the 313s going anywhere else is vanishingly small. They will not be going to your pet project. Merseyrail are highly unlikely to get any additional stock now before fleet replacement (with new build).

 

[Minstral25]

Can we repeat the reality:

The introduction of the 700s on the expanded Thameslink will see 377s displaced; these will go (amongest other places) to the coast, whilst the 313s (unless current plans change) will be united with the rest of the fleet on the Moorgate Great Northerns, possibly formed into semi-permanent 6-car sets.

The liklihood of the 313s going anywhere else is vanishingly small. They will not be going to your pet project. Merseyrail are highly unlikely to get any additional stock now before fleet replacement (with new build).

Is it reality. My maths which is a guess is different.

The 700's will be working on Thameslink trains which will be expanding to Bedford, Peterborough and Cambridge. South of London they will replace 319's on Wimbledon Loop, Current 319's (and to be 387's) on Brighton trains. Plus probably London Bridge to Horsham and one other route from London Bridge. So actually they release the 377/5's (23 units), 377/2's (3 units) and probably about 10-20 other 377's. However 25 units immediately go to SouthEastern so the net extra is only about 10-20 units (guess). Someone might know better numbers

There are trains to strengthen all over the Southern network and possibly some more units for London. So there is unlikely to be enough units to replace 19 class 313's along the South Coast. There is also the 442 and 455's to look at replacing.

 

[al.currie93]

There is also the 442 and 455's to look at replacing.

The 455s must never be replaced... purely because I say so

(Please note; this is not a serious post :P )

 

[Surreyman]

If they are in as good condition as someone has said, then maybe a handful could be used on the GW branches (Windsor/Marlow/Henley) when they are electrified, lack of toilets wouldn't be an issue as they only shuttle back and forth to stations on the main line.
As 4 car Emus (new or cascaded 319s) are planned for the main line, some 3 car units will be needed for the branches.

 

[B&W]

Take a close look at these units chaps. Waiting at Chichester Station Level crossing you can see when the sun shines (as Southern keep these units clean) the paint is bulging and in some cases burst by the metal corrosion under the top coat finish, it is especially bad around the cabs and under the cab windows. Corrosion is also apparent around the door steps where dissimilar metals co-exist. I had the opportunity to look over the 508s closely at Eastleigh and they were no worse than the 313s fabric wise.

This corrosion reminded me of the old SS Uganda which was taken by the RN to ferry troops from Ascension island to Port Stanley during and after the Falklands Campaign. She had an Alloy superstructure on steel hull and after a few Southern Atlantic winters the hull/superstructure joint was structurally worse than Swiss Cheese. Being used on the South Coast lines with salt laden atmosphere seems to being causing a similar effect on the 313s.


Brian

 

[Bald Rick]

The plan for them is subject to the plans of the winning bidder for the franchise.

 

[Aictos]

IIRC the plan is for the Southern 313s to move north to be based at Hornsey in order to operate more trains on the GN Inners as 1.) track improvements on the NCL means more trains will be running and 2.) I'm pretty sure they was talk of more trains from the Hertford Loop into Moorgate?

 

[MCR247]

Surely they won't all be needed for that since Moorgate services will all be to/from the Hertford loop, with extensions, as TL is taking the WGC services

 

[Class377/5]

Surely they won't all be needed for that since Moorgate services will all be to/from the Hertford loop, with extensions, as TL is taking the WGC services

No its not. Its taking some of the WGC services. So additional services (Hertford North being 4tph off peak) and longer trains (all peaks 6 cars) on the Hertford services sees a requirement for extra units which the 313 are expect to be used as they are the only suitable stock unless the winner replaces the whole fleet.

 

[sarahj]

BTW, we run 6 car 313's on football shuttles, calling Brighton, Falmer and Lewes.

In a way I will miss them when they go. If the train is full and standing, nice handy space in the rear. However, when it rains the puddles back there have to be seen. Problem recently has been the heating. Not had a unit this week with heat in all 3 coaches.

If they head north to the GN lines, they will of course have to have their pantos put back.

 

[mr_jrt]

BTW, we run 6 car 313's on football shuttles, calling Brighton, Falmer and Lewes.

In a way I will miss them when they go. If the train is full and standing, nice handy space in the rear. However, when it rains the puddles back there have to be seen. Problem recently has been the heating. Not had a unit this week with heat in all 3 coaches.

If they head north to the GN lines, they will of course have to have their pantos put back.

Assuming that when they go back they'll be replaced by 4-car units, Lewes had it's platforms lengthened for 8 car trains (which is why one of the loops was lost), Falmer is essentially new build and Brighton's a big terminal. They all good for 8-car units for matchdays? I can imagine a couple of extra coaches would go down very well from what I've heard about how busy it gets.

 

[Aictos]

No its not. Its taking some of the WGC services. So additional services (Hertford North being 4tph off peak) and longer trains (all peaks 6 cars) on the Hertford services sees a requirement for extra units which the 313 are expect to be used as they are the only suitable stock unless the winner replaces the whole fleet.

Just wondering but will some WGC services going over to TL destinations be like the existing semi fast services from WGC that only call at Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park and London Kings Cross with the existing Inners been left well alone?

 

[Bald Rick]

Just wondering but will some WGC services going over to TL destinations be like the existing semi fast services from WGC that only call at Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park and London Kings Cross with the existing Inners been left well alone?

Possibly. It depends on whatever timetable emerges for December 2018

To restate about the units, their future depends very much on the plans of whichever bidder wins the TSGN franchise. There is nothing planned or confirmed as yet and won't be until June when the winner is hopefully announced.

 

[evergreenadam]

Which AM peak services into Moorgate are still operated by a single 313 set?

 

[greatkingrat]

According to the FCC timetable, the 0626 Welwyn - Moorgate (arr 0715) is 3 cars, then everything is 6 until the 1004 Welwyn - Moorgate.

 

[swt_passenger]

To restate about the units, their future depends very much on the plans of whichever bidder wins the TSGN franchise. There is nothing planned or confirmed as yet and won't be until June when the winner is hopefully announced.

Even when the bidder is announced they'll be under no actual obligation to explain to the general public exactly what the rolling stock plans will be over the ensuing 4 year period.

Expect years more random speculation...

 

[387star]

Take a close look at these units chaps. Waiting at Chichester Station Level crossing you can see when the sun shines (as Southern keep these units clean) the paint is bulging and in some cases burst by the metal corrosion under the top coat finish, it is especially bad around the cabs and under the cab windows. Corrosion is also apparent around the door steps where dissimilar metals co-exist. I had the opportunity to look over the 508s closely at Eastleigh and they were no worse than the 313s fabric wise.

This corrosion reminded me of the old SS Uganda which was taken by the RN to ferry troops from Ascension island to Port Stanley during and after the Falklands Campaign. She had an Alloy superstructure on steel hull and after a few Southern Atlantic winters the hull/superstructure joint was structurally worse than Swiss Cheese. Being used on the South Coast lines with salt laden atmosphere seems to being causing a similar effect on the 313s.


Brian

My hometown!