Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[JamesTT]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oIPwxkGI_Qc

This is for all of you getting worked up??????

 

[GrimShady]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oIPwxkGI_Qc

This is for all of you getting worked up��

Nice one James......Nice.

 

[Bromley boy]

OK. I get it. You like Sun-style, headline sound bites.

Even when they actually interfere with what you're trying to say.

I am very cheesed off with DfT/GTR on this. Or, probably fairer to say, I'm particularly cheesed off with Horton/Wilkinson, who've made a dog's breakfast of the whole shebang. I keep hoping that someone will sack the pair of ****s.

Soundbites? Suffice it to say, unlike you, I don't use phrases such as "blah" and "don't care" in my posts on this forum.

Regarding your last paragraph, I agree wholehartedly. Espescially the ****s bit.

 

[Bromley boy]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oIPwxkGI_Qc

This is for all of you getting worked up��

Very good.

 

[HH]

Ok let's forget the bumbling government for a minute did any one of the well known or respected transport publications or journalists come out solidly backing the RMTs position

No, because it is generally accepted in the halls of fame (that includes government, management and media) that DOO/DCO is safe enough and it will allow cheaper cost.

I'm actually pretty surprised that the Tories haven't brought in a law to stop public transport striking. After all, they've been pushing for less subsidy for years and are now under pressure to stop hitting the commuter. The only way to satisfy both is to cut cost.

The Unions have done well by their members in using the staff requirement to get better salaries and T&Cs. The obverse of this is that the savings are greater if you can cut/reduce staff. I believe that DfT have their eye on the future when they hope technology will make train crew less and less necessary.

 

[HH]

Soundbites? Suffice it to say, unlike you, I don't use phrases such as "blah" and "don't care" in my posts on this forum.

You think this is worse than hyperbole, exaggeration and spelling that a 10 year old would be ashamed of?

I'm happy for us to differ on this.

P.S. As I truly don't care what job someone has, what should I have said? I could have said that if they think their job lends some sheen to their postings that they are seriously mistaken. I thought "Don't care" was precise in response. Oh, and the end of his post was just random noise. "Blah" was eloquent in reply.

 

[HH]

From a perusal of the latest modernisation plans, I'm sitting pretty in my current role, if I choose to continue in it, until beyond 2045....

Can you say the same?

By 2045 I won't give a toss. Can you say the same?

 

[Bromley boy]

By 2045 I won't give a toss. Can you say the same?

I'll be approaching retirement, you'll probably be dead or dribbling in a care home. I don't suppose either of us will give a toss by then.

Good banter, I love this forum.

Espescially after a couple of lagers!

 

[GrimShady]

I'll be approaching retirement, you'll probably be dead or dribbling in a care home. I don't suppose either of us will give a toss by then.

Good banter, I love this forum.

Espescially after a couple of lagers!

Yeah, he'll even more bitter and twisted by then

I must take more time to check every single letter typed on this silly little android keyboard or suffer the wrath of the miserable old school teacher. The prey has taken the bait

 

[Bromley boy]

Excuse me. I need to tighten my rag before I can reply; it got loose apparently.

Dribbles off into the sunset...

Cheers to that.

 

[redbutton]

Back to the topic at hand...

Yes, assuming that the referendum has a positive result and the powers that be can put pen to paper on the actual document before the strike day, then the expectation would be that no train should run without an OBS if the absence was known more than two hours prior, which would include absence due to industrial action. (Since by law industrial action would have been announced at least seven days in advance.)

I would expect that 90% figure to be a lot lower, although the ex-Revenue and new hire OBSs are not currently allowed to strike so it won't be quite as bad as it could be.

 

[DT611]

Ok let's forget the bumbling government for a minute and ask did any one of the well known or respected transport publications or journalists come out solidly backing the RMTs position in this whole debacle ?

I don't believe it is relevant tbh. It isn't as if they could sway the issue toards their favoured outcome, whatever that would be.

I'm actually pretty surprised that the Tories haven't brought in a law to stop public transport striking.

so am i to be fair. Mind you with rest day working and overtime banns availible i'd wonder if such legislation would really be very effective anyway..

 

[FordFocus]

That would seem to be what should happen. A good deal for the drivers as they will get paid for doing nothing.

There's a seemingly ridiculous situation that the GTR "Southern" drivers will have to have a second person on board, even while running DCO, while the GTR "Thameslink & GN" drivers won't. It could only happen on the railway.

There has to be a catch in it somewhere. ASLEF drivers agree to the DOO/OBS agreement, RMT OBS go on strike, ASLEF drivers can't drive trains without an OBS as there is no last minute sickness so the train gets cancelled? Of course I can see what will happen is GTR will then take ASLEF to court for something similar to the Gatwick Express case, again. :roll:

It's a stupid situation because of the risk of lobbing Southern into Thameslink GN, even our good friend at the DfT agrees that was a mistake.

 

[hwl]

There has to be a catch in it somewhere. ASLEF drivers agree to the DOO/OBS agreement, RMT OBS go on strike, ASLEF drivers can't drive trains without an OBS as there is no last minute sickness so the train gets cancelled? Of course I can see what will happen is GTR will then take ASLEF to court for something similar to the Gatwick Express case, again. :roll:

It's a stupid situation because of the risk of lobbing Southern into Thameslink GN, even our good friend at the DfT agrees that was a mistake.

More than 50% of the OBS/guards have been turning up for work during strikes so GTR could argue the default position is that they are turning up for work during strikes so those actually on strike would need to confirm individually to GTR far enough in advance for it not to be an "unnotified no show" for the purposes of this deal?

 

[FordFocus]

I'm actually pretty surprised that the Tories haven't brought in a law to stop public transport striking. After all, they've been pushing for less subsidy for years and are now under pressure to stop hitting the commuter. The only way to satisfy both is to cut cost.

A Croydon MP tried it a few months ago with a 10 minute members bill (or such wording) along with Health, Energy, Fire and other selected 'critical' workers but was rejected as obviously Labour whipped against. I don't think Theresa May has the appetite for any more Trade Union Bills. The Tories have fulfilled their manifesto promise of thresholds for balloting and a 6 day stoppage by drivers on Southern isn't going to be worth clogging up the Commons and Lords time with Brexit imminent. Mrs May also has the headache that won't go away called Nicola Sturgeon.

 

[FordFocus]

More than 50% of the OBS/guards have been turning up for work during strikes so GTR could argue the default position is that they are turning up for work during strikes so those actually on strike would need to confirm individually to GTR far enough in advance for it not to be an "unnotified no show" for the purposes of this deal?

I take the 50% figure as a pinch of salt along with any other prolonged disputes like this. GTR will make up a figure, call the strike "pointless" and RMT will make up a figure whilst calling it "rock solid".

I've never heard of anyone having to commit themselves to strike action in advance. You either turn up or you don't provided it's a legal ballot and the union has notified that company 7 days in advance.

 

[Carlisle]

. I don't think Theresa May has the appetite for any more Trade Union Bills. The Tories have fulfilled their manifesto promise of thresholds for balloting and a 6 day stoppage by drivers on Southern isn't going to be worth clogging up the Commons.

That's true on Southern but if the RMT opt to call a very significant number of strike days on both Merseyrail and northern then I can see government eventually having to act in some way or decide to back down altogether. The electorate will expect the politicians to have learned at least something from the Southern debacle, and not simply just sit back and watch it happen all over again elsewhere

 

[Carlisle]

Deleted

 

[455driver]

Appreciate that, I'm struggling to get my point across. What I'm getting at is how can a grade be 'rules and regs' competent, when their grade doesn't even exist in the rule book?

They wont be R&R trained, they will be PTS trained which means they can legally help the driver carry out a controlled evacuation and not much else as they wont have any route knowledge.

Having looked through the new, rewritten 'agreement' I note that most of the 'removed' bits are in the remaining rewritten ones.

 

[DT611]

That's true on Southern but if the RMT opt to call a very significant number of strike days on both Merseyrail and northern then I can see government eventually having to act in some way or decide to back down altogether. The electorate will expect the politicians to have learned at least something from the Southern debacle, and not simply just sit back and watch it happen all over again elsewhere

I'm not sure they will tbh. I think in this day and age the electorate know the politicians never learn so their expectations have lowered accordingly.

 

[muz379]

That's true on Southern but if the RMT opt to call a very significant number of strike days on both Merseyrail and northern then I can see government eventually having to act in some way or decide to back down altogether. The electorate will expect the politicians to have learned at least something from the Southern debacle, and not simply just sit back and watch it happen all over again elsewhere

You assume of course that The current government care a great deal about what goes on in the North .

It certainly does not feel like they do up here .

 

[furnessvale]

That's true on Southern but if the RMT opt to call a very significant number of strike days on both Merseyrail and northern then I can see government eventually having to act in some way or decide to back down altogether. The electorate will expect the politicians to have learned at least something from the Southern debacle, and not simply just sit back and watch it happen all over again elsewhere

The ability of rail strikes to cause significant disruption to London commuters is in quite a different league to any effect such strikes might have outside the capital.

I doubt the government would even notice, let alone care.

 

[redbutton]

I take the 50% figure as a pinch of salt along with any other prolonged disputes like this. GTR will make up a figure, call the strike "pointless" and RMT will make up a figure whilst calling it "rock solid".

I've never heard of anyone having to commit themselves to strike action in advance. You either turn up or you don't provided it's a legal ballot and the union has notified that company 7 days in advance.

TBH it sounds about right, since all the ex-revenue and new hire OBSs aren't part of the dispute and therefore can't take direct action, though they can refuse to cross picket lines. I'm not sure of the exact makeup, but ex-revenue + new hires + ex-guards choosing to cross picket lines might equal about 50%.

I think the issue of pre-notification is a double-edged sword. On one side it prevents the company from claiming last-minute absence, but on the other side it allows the company to plan for it which could reduce the effectiveness of the strike.

A friend of mine is a schoolteacher, and whenever they go on strike the school emails everyone to ask whether they intend to take part, so they know whether to open or close on that day.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

A friend of mine is a schoolteacher, and whenever they go on strike the school emails everyone to ask whether they intend to take part, so they know whether to open or close on that day.

That's probably down to H&S regs. The school probably is required to have a staff member for every so many students on site at all times, if they fall below the minimum staffing they'd probably have to close for the day.

 

[redbutton]

That's probably down to H&S regs. The school probably is required to have a staff member for every so many students on site at all times, if they fall below the minimum staffing they'd probably have to close for the day.

Indeed it is, but I was just responding to the point that it's unheard of for staff to be asked whether they will be reporting on a strike day. If notifying in advance means the trains definitely won't run without them, then that may be a reason to do it.

 

[74A]

Indeed it is, but I was just responding to the point that it's unheard of for staff to be asked whether they will be reporting on a strike day. If notifying in advance means the trains definitely won't run without them, then that may be a reason to do it.

Trains will still run if the OBS go on strike.

 

[redbutton]

Trains will still run if the OBS go on strike.

Some trains, yes. Just not the ones where the OBS is out on strike.

 

[InOban]

Surely the OBS have accepted the company's job description and so are not in dispute, and so have no reason to go on strike. They could only refuse to cross a picket line. The services which can't run are those operated by older, not DOO-fitted stock.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Surely the OBS have accepted the company's job description and so are not in dispute, and so have no reason to go on strike. They could only refuse to cross a picket line. The services which can't run are those operated by older, not DOO-fitted stock.

The terms and conditions were forced upon them, so they are in dispute.

 

[Robertj21a]

The terms and conditions were forced upon them, so they are in dispute.

Not so, quite a few have joined the company in recent months, through external recruitment.