Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[physics34]

Already on thameslink core. How long do you you think it would be before they start to slowly expand this outwards? Serious question.

London bridge to norwood junction was the next bit rumoured to be automated during the cp6 (2019-24). Its all gone quite though. Heard that a while back

 

[CN75]

I'm not very clear why that is needed. Southern seems to be running quite well now that they have the ASLEF arrangements agreed and implemented, plus a good many OBS in place. Why do they need to bother too much with whatever the RMT want ? - they've missed the boat.

There is no obvious reason why Southern should want to help the RMT out of it's meltdown. The RMT still do not recognise the OBS grade - but the OBS/DOO system has been in place for about eighteen months, entirely on Southern's (and in the end ASLEF's) terms. In all the time since April 2016, the RMT have not re-balloted their members about the action or a different strategy. Southern services are running as usual on strike days.

Why, if you were a new OBS, would you bother paying subscriptions to a union that doesn't recognise your new job and undermines it, represented by bitter 'old boys' that don't talk to you in the crew rooms and stand on picket lines while the trains are running behind them?

 

[AlterEgo]

There is no obvious reason why Southern should want to help the RMT out of it's meltdown. The RMT still do not recognise the OBS grade - but the OBS/DOO system has been in place for about eighteen months, entirely on Southern's (and in the end ASLEF's) terms. In all the time since April 2016, the RMT have not re-balloted their members about the action or a different strategy. Southern services are running as usual on strike days.

Why, if you were a new OBS, would you bother paying subscriptions to a union that doesn't recognise your new job and undermines it, represented by bitter 'old boys' that don't talk to you in the crew rooms and stand on picket lines while the trains are running behind them?

This is a good assessment.

There is no point joining a union which does not recognise your grade and in fact actively campaigns against its existence. As more OBSs come on board, the weaker the RMT will be - purely for the reason that they don't recognise or represent the grade.

 

[Robertj21a]

There is no obvious reason why Southern should want to help the RMT out of it's meltdown. The RMT still do not recognise the OBS grade - but the OBS/DOO system has been in place for about eighteen months, entirely on Southern's (and in the end ASLEF's) terms. In all the time since April 2016, the RMT have not re-balloted their members about the action or a different strategy. Southern services are running as usual on strike days.

Why, if you were a new OBS, would you bother paying subscriptions to a union that doesn't recognise your new job and undermines it, represented by bitter 'old boys' that don't talk to you in the crew rooms and stand on picket lines while the trains are running behind them?

Good assessment !
.

 

[jon0844]

You should know, you drive driverless trains through the thameslink core,
don’t you?

What’s it like?

What does the driver need to do when the train takes over?

If the answer is nothing, then technically they're driverless. The driver is obviously still there because the whole route isn't.

But despite all the hurdles, strikes, cost and so on - they could, in theory, extend it.

Current drivers have nothing to worry about, but the next generation of drivers might - and certainly the level of training will likely reduce as time goes on. Once that happens and you could train someone quickly, staff become expendable.

A lot of drivers are already quite upset that the newer drivers voted for more money with conditions the older drivers didn't want, partly because they were probably very happy with the money they already got and the extra flexibility on leave.

 

[Bromley boy]

What does the driver need to do when the train takes over?

If the answer is nothing, then technically they're driverless. The driver is obviously still there because the whole route isn't.

But despite all the hurdles, strikes, cost and so on - they could, in theory, extend it.

Current drivers have nothing to worry about, but the next generation of drivers might - and certainly the level of training will likely reduce as time goes on. Once that happens and you could train someone quickly, staff become expendable.

A lot of drivers are already quite upset that the newer drivers voted for more money with conditions the older drivers didn't want, partly because they were probably very happy with the money they already got and the extra flexibility on leave.

Even when ERTMS is initiated drivers will still be required to dispatch the train, initiate an emergency brake application if god forbid someone jumps, resume manual driving if something out of course happens or ATO falls over. ATO is not the same thing as driverless, much as that might disappoint certain bitter individuals who frequent this forum.

We’ve all been to the branch meetings where the old boys spend hours moaning about nothing important . Many of those newer drivers have young families to feed and mortgages to pay.

 

[jon0844]

I know a driver will be there to step in, but let's be honest - in the years to come, we could just say that the train will keep going (ala DLR) and that will be that. Obviously you can use a myriad of sensors like autonomous vehicles to try and add some extra safety, if you wanted. Or just argue that the railway is closed and it's fine.

It may not happen in my lifetime, but it's going to happen one way or another. I fear that we'll likely relax more regulations to make it happen, which is why I envisage many years of strikes if anyone is ever brave enough to propose it.

 

[Bromley boy]

I know a driver will be there to step in, but let's be honest - in the years to come, we could just say that the train will keep going (ala DLR) and that will be that. Obviously you can use a myriad of sensors like autonomous vehicles to try and add some extra safety, if you wanted. Or just argue that the railway is closed and it's fine.

It may not happen in my lifetime, but it's going to happen one way or another. I fear that we'll likely relax more regulations to make it happen, which is why I envisage many years of strikes if anyone is ever brave enough to propose it.

Even the DLR requires a safety critical member of staff on board every train to operate.

HS2, a brand new railway that hasn’t even been built yet, is going to be employing drivers. The digital railway programme keeps slipping, even electrification is proving elusive, large areas of the network are still signalled under absolute block.

I don’t think the current generation of drivers has anything to worry about.

I’d never say never of course, but the current trend to save money is to roll out DOO
and load ever more responsibility onto the driver while diminishing the importance of other roles or removing them altogether. I’m not saying I think that’s right, but it’s clearly easier to make savings that way than upgrading the entire network to be truly driverless.

 

[infobleep]

There is no obvious reason why Southern should want to help the RMT out of it's meltdown. The RMT still do not recognise the OBS grade - but the OBS/DOO system has been in place for about eighteen months, entirely on Southern's (and in the end ASLEF's) terms. In all the time since April 2016, the RMT have not re-balloted their members about the action or a different strategy. Southern services are running as usual on strike days.

Why, if you were a new OBS, would you bother paying subscriptions to a union that doesn't recognise your new job and undermines it, represented by bitter 'old boys' that don't talk to you in the crew rooms and stand on picket lines while the trains are running behind them?

Are you suggesting the Guildford to London peak services don't usually run? Given that your saying normal.services run during strikes?

 

[jon0844]

Even the DLR requires a safety critical member of staff on board every train to operate.

Yes, but let's be realistic. They are unlikely to be looking out the front much of the time to notice anything, or be able to act in time if they do.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, but let's be realistic. They are unlikely to be looking out the front much of the time to notice anything, or be able to act in time if they do.

The DLR on board staff are really there to assist in an emergency, as well as occasionally moving the train and controlling doors under their own power.

 

[jon0844]

The DLR on board staff are really there to assist in an emergency, as well as occasionally moving the train and controlling doors under their own power.

Which includes letting my son use the horn and make a PA announcement to say the train was terminating, all change please (at Stratford International)!! Or, perhaps not.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In terms of GTR not being bothered by continued RMT action, isn’t it because they have a franchise agreement where the revenue risk is on the DfT? So prolonged financial underperformance won’t actually hurt the franchise, and the DfT is unlikely to throw in the towel at this stage due to the political fallout.

 

[Emmsie]

There is no obvious reason why Southern should want to help the RMT out of it's meltdown. The RMT still do not recognise the OBS grade - but the OBS/DOO system has been in place for about eighteen months, entirely on Southern's (and in the end ASLEF's) terms. In all the time since April 2016, the RMT have not re-balloted their members about the action or a different strategy. Southern services are running as usual on strike days.

Why, if you were a new OBS, would you bother paying subscriptions to a union that doesn't recognise your new job and undermines it, represented by bitter 'old boys' that don't talk to you in the crew rooms and stand on picket lines while the trains are running behind them?

Just to clarify while some messrooms were uncomfortable to be in on occasion because of conversations taking place, I was always made to feel welcome on a personal basis by the vast majority of staff.

 

[infobleep]

If only we could increase the number of hours staff work, without making it less safe and affecting their health:

Although the West London line has now reopened, when Southern experience disruption they often find themselves experiencing crew shortages. This is because staff have a maximum number of hours they are able to work.

At times it seems as though they have a train available to run, Southern may not have enough staff available to drive or work on the train, and therefore services will be cancelled.

Southern will endeavour to run as many services as possible, however these may be altered at the last minute to accommodate our crews working regulations.

https://www.southernrailway.com/tra...768790000#INC23588E98D5314486A604CA398ECE4321

As we can't, how about employing more staff.

 

[tsr]

If only we could increase the number of hours staff work, without making it less safe and affecting their health...

I can assure you that the message you quoted actually wasn't meant to be read that way, though I can see how it could be, in light of some people's ideas about GTR!

It's an attempt to explain why trains randomly turn around in places or take time to reinstate. I suppose it could be worded better, but I am sure that will be done, in time...

 

[infobleep]

I can assure you that the message you quoted actually wasn't meant to be read that way, though I can see how it could be, in light of some people's ideas about GTR!

It's an attempt to explain why trains randomly turn around in places or take time to reinstate. I suppose it could be worded better, but I am sure that will be done, in time...

Thanks for that. My opinion of GTR isn't quite so high so I'm more likely to cease on such things. They get less benefit of the doubt from me than other companies would.

 

[tsr]

Thanks for that. My opinion of GTR isn't quite so high so I'm more likely to cease on such things. They get less benefit of the doubt from me than other companies would.

Again, I can see what you mean. GTR is unlikely to receive sympathy for any information explaining things about train crew during disruption. I can see why this is. However, in this specific scenario, cynicism is, I can assure you, not especially urgently needed.

(Sorry to be so vague - but it has to be done.)

 

[otomous]

If only we could increase the number of hours staff work, without making it less safe and affecting their health:

https://www.southernrailway.com/tra...768790000#INC23588E98D5314486A604CA398ECE4321

As we can't, how about employing more staff.

I’m pleased to see they are actually explaining the truth of a situation rather than the easily misinterpreted “waiting for a member of the train crew.”

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m pleased to see they are actually explaining the truth of a situation rather than the easily misinterpreted “waiting for a member of the train crew.”

That is my most hated automated announcement, and a new one along the lines of ‘the traincrew being delayed due to disruption’ needs to be recorded immediately. Not relevant to this particular post, I know.

 

[IanXC]

That is my most hated automated announcement, and a new one along the lines of ‘the traincrew being delayed due to disruption’ needs to be recorded immediately. Not relevant to this particular post, I know.

It really depends which reason is chosen. The current crew related reasons for delay are:

108 This train has been delayed by a member of train crew being unavailable
183 This train has been delayed by train crew having been unavailable earlier
185 This train has been delayed by waiting earlier for a train crew member
186 This train has been delayed by waiting for a train crew member
525 This train has been delayed by a shortage of train crew
529 This train has been delayed by severe weather preventing train crew getting to work
886 This train has been delayed by train crew being delayed
887 This train has been delayed by train crew being delayed by service disruption

https://wiki.openraildata.com/index.php/Darwin:Late_Running_reason_codes_and_text

 

[pompeyfan]

887 is probably the most accurate, the current set up see’s crew being abused either directly or on Twitter, assuming that someone couldn’t be bothered to wake up in time or similar.

 

[IKB]

London bridge to norwood junction was the next bit rumoured to be automated during the cp6 (2019-24). Its all gone quite though. Heard that a while back

I recall reading in some of the latest industry press magazines that ERTMS is planned for southern parts of the ECML during CP6. Can't recall anything for third rail commuter land. Ambitions for CP6 seem to have been scaled back somewhat. Will East Croydon even get it's rebuild?

 

[IanXC]

887 is probably the most accurate, the current set up see’s crew being abused either directly or on Twitter, assuming that someone couldn’t be bothered to wake up in time or similar.

Quite. Even if the full list isn't available surely it makes more sense to show a delay due to crew having a late inward working as being delayed due to the original incident rather than reaching for a crew related reason!

 

[Bromley boy]

Will East Croydon even get it's rebuild?

Hasn’t it already had it?!

 

[swt_passenger]

Hasn’t it already had it?!

Not the 2 extra platforms planned in conjunction with rebuild of all the adjacent junctions. It’s in the CP6 plans for the route.

 

[Bromley boy]

Not the 2 extra platforms planned in conjunction with rebuild of all the adjacent junctions. It’s in the CP6 plans for the route.

I see there’s another thread on this. Ta.

 

[infobleep]

Again, I can see what you mean. GTR is unlikely to receive sympathy for any information explaining things about train crew during disruption. I can see why this is. However, in this specific scenario, cynicism is, I can assure you, not especially urgently needed.

(Sorry to be so vague - but it has to be done.)

I understand. My cynicsum isn't directed at the lower dowm staff but more the people at the very top.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

It all seems to of gone quiet on the dispute. Surely the RMT should be meeting with GTR getting an agreement based off of the ASLEF agreement and getting it put to a ballot of the members? Its an embarrasment a lot of OBS members have not accepted what has happened has happened and would like to move forward and get some sort of agreement which gives them more job security and perhaps could improve their work life balance. But no the RMT has forgotten thats it here to serve its members, and is dragging out the dispute because they haven't come to terms with not getting their own way.

 

[Dave1987]

It all seems to of gone quiet on the dispute. Surely the RMT should be meeting with GTR getting an agreement based off of the ASLEF agreement and getting it put to a ballot of the members? Its an embarrasment a lot of OBS members have not accepted what has happened has happened and would like to move forward and get some sort of agreement which gives them more job security and perhaps could improve their work life balance. But no the RMT has forgotten thats it here to serve its members, and is dragging out the dispute because they haven't come to terms with not getting their own way.

Do the OBS even have a union to represent them? If the RMT refuses to recognise the new grade then there is no one to negotiate for them.