Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[razor89]

What will the signaller get and what does he do?

Well, unless I've grossly misunderstood the sentence I quoted, he will get nothing, because transmission of the DSD alarm message failed.

Perhaps I've missed something here, in which case please do enlighten me.

 

[bengley]

Well, unless I've grossly misunderstood the sentence I quoted, he will get nothing, because transmission of the DSD alarm message failed.

Perhaps I've missed something here, in which case please do enlighten me.

You're 100% right. If the DSD alarm fails to send, the signaller will not know about it.

 

[Harbon 1]

Nothing like a quiz to test the knowledge of bull****ers

I don't think you can call trained individuals who actually work the trains and know how to protect them "bull****ers".

If its aimed at me, I have never once claimed to be an expert.

 

[highdyke]

I don't think you can call trained individuals who actually work the trains and know how to protect them "bull****ers".

If its aimed at me, I have never once claimed to be an expert.

Definitely not aimed at you. I just want to get to the bottom of what people what claim things are risky by saying the driver becoming incapacitated really know. In most cases they will not know the answers because their training does not cover it.
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Well, unless I've grossly misunderstood the sentence I quoted, he will get nothing, because transmission of the DSD alarm message failed.

Perhaps I've missed something here, in which case please do enlighten me.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/casdocs/rssb-gsmr-oc iss 1.pdf

P53, then what?

 

[Agent_c]

Oh come on for goodness sake, many people have very little respect for the police nowadays let alone anybody else in authority.

In most cases it would be safer to remain on the train anyway but if it was necessary to evacuate how is the guard going to be able to control everyone?

Oh come on, all you have to do these days is wear a high vis vest, a hard hat, and stand confidently and people will believe you have some sort of authority. They managed in "the real hustle" to con users of a car park into paying their man, instead of using the machine, with little more than £5 of tat you can buy off amazon.

 

[bengley]

Definitely not aimed at you. I just want to get to the bottom of what people what claim things are risky by saying the driver becoming incapacitated really know. In most cases they will not know the answers because their training does not cover it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/casdocs/rssb-gsmr-oc iss 1.pdf

P53, then what?

You're misunderstanding what it's saying. The DSD alarm to signaller relies entirely on the GSM-R being functional. If it is not, the alarm will not be sent.

 

[razor89]

http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/casdocs/rssb-gsmr-oc iss 1.pdf

P53, then what?

You quoted the previous document, P63, in response to another poster asking what happens when the GSM-R fails to work correctly. I read P63 and discovered that if the GSM-R fails to send a DSD alarm message the signaller will not know about it. Now you've quoted this document P53 which seems to just cover procedures for when the GSM-R IS functioning correctly. Again, unless I'm missing something, I don't see how your latest reference is of any use in ascertaining what will happen when a GSM-R unit fails and the driver is incapacitated.

 

[the sniper]

Definitely not aimed at you. I just want to get to the bottom of what people what claim things are risky by saying the driver becoming incapacitated really know. In most cases they will not know the answers because their training does not cover it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/casdocs/rssb-gsmr-oc iss 1.pdf

P53, then what?

Sorry, a 'bull****er' Guard here. Wise Dyke, question master, does that not rely upon the GSM-R being turned on and operating correctly?

 

[Harbon 1]

http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/casdocs/rssb-gsmr-oc iss 1.pdf

P53, then what?

As the page you have sent us to read rather than directly quoting it, the term at the top "The Operational Concept" implies this is what will happen in a perfect world with no interruptions in signal.

As it seems to be us interpreting the document for you, I direct you to this paragraph:

7.8.2 In the event of a train stopping out of course and the DSD alarm being
received by the signaller, the signaller would normally make an Urgent
Point-to-Point Call to the driver of the train concerned. However, if the
signaller were to receive no response, the signaller could then make an
announcement over the train’s PA system to request other traincrew to
contact the driver.

Where would this other traincrew member be on a DOO service? If they are not trained in the running of the train, how would they know how to contact the driver? Would they be able to get into the cab? Do they know how to operate the radio?

 

[highdyke]

You're misunderstanding what it's saying. The DSD alarm to signaller relies entirely on the GSM-R being functional. If it is not, the alarm will not be sent.

And what if it's not functional or the train is not in the system, what happens then?

 

[The Box Photter]

When a person in clear authority is shouting at you, you listen.

No you don't. Not in today's world. The platform staff at Blackfriars constantly badger passengers not to cross the "yellow line of death", but no-one takes a blind bit of notice. You're just as likely to ignore him or start videoing him for your Youtube channel.

In the event of an accident of the fashion you describe, the Guard is as likely to be a casualty as any passenger.

I ask again, why, if DOO trains are a disaster of Poseidon Adventure proportions waiting to happen does the DfT and RAIB allow them to operate currently?

 

[bengley]

And what if it's not functional or the train is not in the system, what happens then?

If the train is not registered on the system the alarm will still be sent albeit without a headcode and with the train's unit number instead.

If it is not functional at all, the alarm will not be sent and the signaller will be

 

[razor89]

And what if it's not functional or the train is not in the system, what happens then?

Enlighten us. This isn't your personal quiz thread, and it's not ok for you to attempt to belittle everyone that disagrees with you. If you have the knowledge, share it.

 

[highdyke]

As the page you have sent us to read rather than directly quoting it, the term at the top "The Operational Concept" implies this is what will happen in a perfect world with no interruptions in signal.

As i said before the system would show up a DSD alarm if nothing is sent, say the radios is broken.

 

[bengley]

As i said before the system would show up a DSD alarm is nothing is sent, say the radios is broken.

what?

 

[highdyke]

Enlighten us. This isn't your personal quiz thread, and it's not ok for you to attempt to belittle everyone that disagrees with you. If you have the knowledge, share it.

How is asking questions belittling people? These are experienced railwaymen, let's have the answers. If none are forthcoming I will give the answers tomorrow, maybe they will learn something, as clearly training is inadequate.

 

[bengley]

How is asking questions belittling people? These are experienced railwaymen, let's have the answers. If none are forthcoming I will give the answers tomorrow, maybe they will learn something, as clearly training is inadequate.

I think the main issue is that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about but you're pretending you know better than everyone else.

Let me explain the DSD alarm in Layman's terms.

You write a letter to Aunty Mavis and put it in an envelope. You put the letter to Aunty Mavis in your local post box.
Thirty minutes later, a yobbo comes along and throws a match into the post box, destroying it and its contents.
Aunty Mavis doesn't have any idea you sent her a letter.

 

[Harbon 1]

As i said before the system would show up a DSD alarm is nothing is sent, say the radios is broken.

Yes, (as I understand it) the GSMR set will show up the alarm, but if there is no connection to the box, the box won't get the alarm. If the radio is broken whilst in service then this is the same, the box won't get the message.

What you seem to be doing now is using information that has been given to you, from a document you are using/trying to use to prove your point, against us, but the statement is the same as we have already given you?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How is asking questions belittling people? These are experienced railwaymen, let's have the answers. If none are forthcoming I will give the answers tomorrow, maybe they will learn something, as clearly training is inadequate.

The experienced railwaymen have given you the answers, and you are using the answers to answer your own previous questions!

Why do we have to wait for the answers to this quiz we all unwittingly entered?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Edited to add: I take on potential criminal liability every time I drive my car, but it doesn't stop me driving.

I take on criminal liability in my job and am grateful there are others who have checks and balances on my activity and I on theirs. I fully support both ASLEF and RMT in this. You don't carry hundreds of passengers when you drive your car do you?

 

[the sniper]

As i said before the system would show up a DSD alarm if nothing is sent, say the radios is broken.

The broken/tuned off radio can transmit a message to say it's turned off/broken?

How is asking questions belittling people? These are experienced railwaymen, let's have the answers. If none are forthcoming I will give the answers tomorrow, maybe they will learn something, as clearly training is inadequate.

Good time to disappear... :roll:

 

[Harbon 1]

I think the main issue is that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about but you're pretending you know better than everyone else.

Let me explain the DSD alarm in Layman's terms.

You write a letter to Aunty Mavis and put it in an envelope. You put the letter to Aunty Mavis in your local post box.
Thirty minutes later, a yobbo comes along and throws a match into the post box, destroying it and its contents.
Aunty Mavis doesn't have any idea you sent her a letter.

I would buy "An Idiots Guide To Railway Procedures" if you had written it

 

[highdyke]

I think the main issue is that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about but you're pretending you know better than everyone else.

Let me explain the DSD alarm in Layman's terms.

You write a letter to Aunty Mavis and put it in an envelope. You put the letter to Aunty Mavis in your local post box.
Thirty minutes later, a yobbo comes along and throws a match into the post box, destroying it and its contents.
Aunty Mavis doesn't have any idea you sent her a letter.

So what happens next? Answer the question please. The fact is you don't know.

 

[Harbon 1]

So what happens next? Answer the question please.

The train sits there sending no messages in the middle of nowhere. The box doesn't know its DSD hasn't been reset because the train can't tell the box its DSD hasn't been reset.

If your questions were decipherable we might be able to actually answer them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So what happens next? Answer the question please. The fact is you don't know.

If you do, why don't you enlighten us. You can't win an argument by saying 'ah, but you're wrong because you haven't answered my question'...

 

[Agent_c]

So what happens next? Answer the question please. The fact is you don't know.

Actually, I think the burden lies with you to tell us what happens next. The process failed, and the signaller is unaware of the message. What happens now?

How long do you suppose it will take for someone to realise somethings wrong, how long until someone who can effect a rescue will arrive, and what risk do you believe there is in the meantime?

You are the one assuring us we don't need a second safety man on the train because of the (smashed) comms gear.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Clearly this doesn't happen currently, but as there is a GSM-R radio in the cab at each end, would it not be possible for them both to be on and the one that is not broken to send an alarm out? (assuming that only one end of the train is involved in the accident)

 

[cjmillsnun]

I can tell I've hit a nerve here. Many posters have implied that without Guards/Conductors, we're just a small step away from disaster every time we get onto a train. It that was the case, why is DOO allowed anywhere?

I'm as entitled to put my opinion as any other poster and I contend that the "Safety Critical" aspect is in fact the Emperor's new clothes. Everyone can see logically that DOO trains are no less safe than those with a Guard. Statistically speaking you're no more likely to be involved in a train accident as a passenger on a DOO train than one that carries a Guard. The Ladbroke Grove train had a Guard, as did the Ufton Nervet train, as did the ones at Potter's Bar, Purley and Hatfield. When the two DEMUs collided on the Oxted Branch, I understand the Guard was in the driving cab of one of the units, probably distracting the driver and contributing to the crash. It's just that those with a vested interest can't admit that the days of the train Guard are coming to an end.

I'm sure the lamplighters made a very strong safety case that replacing gas street lights with electric ones would render the streets strewn with the dead and maimed.

Yes the Ufton Nervert train had a guard. Bloody useful as the driver was dead. There was someone to protect the train and deal with passengers.

 

[68000]

A genuine DSD activation is an extremely rare occurrence

If the GSM-R radio is broken, the train should be brought out of service

 

[cjmillsnun]

OK I back down, lets rip out all the CCTV, blank the monitors in the drivers' cabs and have every train dispatched manually by a chap/chapess in a peaked cap blowing a whistle and waving a green flag.

How much will my season ticket price increase by to keep all your chums in a job for life?

It won't. But don't think you'll get a discount if those grades go.

 

[68000]

Clearly this doesn't happen currently, but as there is a GSM-R radio in the cab at each end, would it not be possible for them both to be on and the one that is not broken to send an alarm out? (assuming that only one end of the train is involved in the accident)

Both of them are on but they are totally independent of each other so the GSM-R radio at the other end would not know to send the alarm

 

[Harbon 1]

Both of them are on but they are totally independent of each other so the GSM-R radio at the other end would not know to send the alarm

I assume because it is not the, how to put this, the 'live cab'?