Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[hwl]

I've seen the post and I'm aware of various number touted. I still do not see your point.

You post seems to support the argument that it is not safe. Its an admission that incidents happen. How many is what is deemed acceptable and how policy and procedure is mitigated against it.

My point (and others in the thread) is that it isn't "safe" and that safety is relative and is compromised. Each and every time that dispatch is done without the view of the platform it isn't safe. Should that be increased because we can mitigate by locking doors out ? What if YOU are that 1/7mil

As mooted many times in this thread. The safety of DOO is very relative. We have accepted the risks of DOO.

Specific to what the original tangent is. This type of dispatch is not safe, its just mitigation.

Most passengers would surely be more concerned at being the 1 in 4 million with a guard where the risk is 75% higher than DOO at 1 in 7million?

 

[LowLevel]

On the Liskeard to Looe branch you'd want the driver clambering around operating the groundframes? :-/ I don't understand why people choose the little branches as examples as they often tend to carry guards for operational reasons.

 

[hwl]

FACT Disabled and vulnerable will be worse off by these changes and be unable to travel spontaneously for the first time in decades.

TSGN are closing ticket offices so station staff will be available to help while the station is open like the gate line staff member at my local station does (but not all day).

 

[ComUtoR]

Most passengers would surely be more concerned at being the 1 in 4 million with a guard where the risk is 75% higher than DOO at 1 in 7million?

No doubt and I haven't placed any argument either way. The risk is not insignificant and an incident can and will happen. But that doesn't mean DOO is proven to be safe. What it proves beyond doubt is that incidents occur on both. No one has stated otherwise.

What seems to be evident is that there is a believe that DOO has been proved safe. The DOO supporters seem to blindly ignore the fact that DOO is riddled with incidents and not just from dispatch.

If incidents didn't occur or if the ones that did, did not cause direct injury then I would be here supporting DOO. I cannot espouse DOO as safe when I know its just a level of risk.

How anyone states its safe knowing that incidents happen and cause dismemberment is something I don't understand. Why its accepted is frightening.

 

[DarloRich]

Question regarding Southern services to Milton Keynes: Will they still have guards or will Southern pay for DDO equipment to be installed at all the WCML stations they serve?

Extension: If so does that increase the risk to LM guards?

 

[74A]

It is not "safe" That safety is "relatively safe with an acceptable level of risk". How do you say it is "safe" when there are regular incidents ?

That applies to everything. People die falling down the stairs at home. Should we ban stairs ? People even die falling out of bed. Should be ban beds? There is no such thing as absolute safety. DOO is safe and Driver Guard despatch is no safer than DOO.

 

[hwl]

Question regarding Southern services to Milton Keynes: Will they still have guards or will Southern pay for DDO equipment to be installed at all the WCML stations they serve?

Extension: If so does that increase the risk to LM guards?

Still have guards for the time being.
What equipment on stations? The 377s used on the WCML services all have cameras and monitors on board so no station costs if they use GPS for SDO location etc. The tracklink balises are relatively cheap though.

 

[ComUtoR]

DOO is safe

People understand risk. People also have a belief that when something is deemed "safe" it means that there is little to no risk and that they will not have an incident.

You don't seem to accept that there is an acceptable level of risk and are avoiding the fact that safety is a relative term and are trying to portray it as an absolute.

and Driver Guard despatch is no safer than DOO.

Not proven

 

[HLE]

That applies to everything. People die falling down the stairs at home. Should we ban stairs ? People even die falling out of bed. Should be ban beds? There is no such thing as absolute safety. DOO is safe and Driver Guard despatch is no safer than DOO.

Explain.

 

[Harbon 1]

I'm struggling to understand why everyone saying 1 in 7 million is safer than 1 in 4 million.

How many branch line and long distance trains are packed full with no standing room and stop regularly in stations with hoards of people wanting to get on at every stop? How many branch line and long distance services run late into the night/early morning and are used by people after a stiff few down the pub? How many branch line and long distance services that are DOO have more then a few sets of doors to operate and check?

The point is DOO services are used in the busiest part of the networks carrying 100,000+ people every day and are extremely busy in peak times, they are completely different to services used and boarded by a few tens of people at any one station and are not stopping every five minutes.

Whats to say the 1 in 7 million on DOO (London) is actually more accidents than 1 in 4 million (long distance/branch lines?)

The reason there are no comparable stats is that they are different circumstances, and quite frankly, the services that are more at risk of an accident are having extra staff and eyes taken away from them.

The whole dispute is about an extension of DOO and subsequent bullying of staff, not to get rid of it completely. When it was deemed safe, trains were running with 4 carriages and you were less at risk of "I'm gonna sue your ass!!"

It all sounds a lot like: there are more planes in the ocean than submarines in the sky so therefore planes are not safe. The two safety figures at present are non comparable. More people and more services make the results lower for DOO, whereas accidents per hour or per day may be a better comparison.

 

[74A]

Explain.

From the original source:
Jonathan Fox, Acting Director of TfL London Rail, said in 2013:
Quote:
"We do not believe that the new system will have any impact on safety.

"On the East London Line, which uses driver only operation, the rate of door incidents is one for every 7 million passengers.

"This compares to the section of the network which currently uses conductors, where the rate of door incidents is one for every 4 million passengers."

 

[cjmillsnun]

TSGN are closing ticket offices so station staff will be available to help while the station is open like the gate line staff member at my local station does (but not all day).

For how long before they get rid?

 

[74A]

Explain.

From the original source:
Jonathan Fox, Acting Director of TfL London Rail, said in 2013:
Quote:
"We do not believe that the new system will have any impact on safety.

"On the East London Line, which uses driver only operation, the rate of door incidents is one for every 7 million passengers.

"This compares to the section of the network which currently uses conductors, where the rate of door incidents is one for every 4 million passengers."

I'm struggling to understand why everyone saying 1 in 7 million is safer than 1 in 4 million.

Whats to say the 1 in 7 million on DOO (London) is actually more accidents than 1 in 4 million (long distance/branch lines?)

Because both statistics come from London Overground. On the DOO section incidents were 1 in 7 millions and on the conductor section incident were 1 in 4 million.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

That applies to everything. People die falling down the stairs at home. Should we ban stairs ? People even die falling out of bed. Should be ban beds? There is no such thing as absolute safety. DOO is safe and Driver Guard despatch is no safer than DOO.

WHAT AN IDIOTIC EXAMPLE TO USE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one gets sent to prison when anyone falls down their own stairs or out of their own bed

Can't you mentally grasp the difference for a DOO train driver to that ??????????????????????????????

 

[74A]

People understand risk. People also have a belief that when something is deemed "safe" it means that there is little to no risk and that they will not have an incident.

And thats what DOO is !

 

[Harbon 1]

Because both statistics come from London Overground. On the DOO section incidents were 1 in 7 millions and on the conductor section incident were 1 in 4 million.

How many guard operated trains vs how many DOO trains?

How many passengers on each differently operated service?

Stats can be twisted to favour one side or another.

At the end of the day, are you more likely to be dragged down the platform to your death when you get you coat trapped in the door when someone's attention is on the safety of the people on the platform, or on the track ahead?

 

[HLE]

From the original source:
Jonathan Fox, Acting Director of TfL London Rail, said in 2013:
Quote:
"We do not believe that the new system will have any impact on safety.

"On the East London Line, which uses driver only operation, the rate of door incidents is one for every 7 million passengers.

"This compares to the section of the network which currently uses conductors, where the rate of door incidents is one for every 4 million passengers."

So the because it's 1 in 7m on the East London line it will be 1 in 7m across the country?

 

[JamesTT]

What has happened with regards to the case involving the elderley lady and the merseyrail train

 

[ComUtoR]

So the because it's 1 in 7m on the East London line it will be 1 in 7m across the country?

Approximately 236 people would of had a "door incident" in the year 2014 -2015

Yep, that's safe enough for me :/

 

[74A]

WHAT AN IDIOTIC EXAMPLE TO USE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one gets sent to prison when anyone falls down their own stairs or out of their own bed

Can't you mentally grasp the difference for a DOO train driver to that ??????????????????????????????

Indeed I can see if you are a non DOO train driver there is more responsibility for you under DOO. Many of your colleagues (Thameslink) do it all the time for the same salary so why shouldn't you ?

 

[Domh245]

What has happened with regards to the case involving the elderley lady and the merseyrail train

He pleaded not guilty to the offence and a court date was set for July 25th

He spoke only to confirm his personal details and enter a not guilty plea.

...

Rebecca Smith, prosecuting, said a trial was estimated to last two to three weeks.

Judge Alan Conrad, QC, set a trial date of July 25.

He remanded Zee on unconditional bail.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

What has happened with regards to the case involving the elderley lady and the merseyrail train

Court case is scheduled for the last week of July.

Ooops! Beaten to it.

 

[JamesTT]

He pleaded not guilty to the offence and a court date was set for July 25th

Cheers best not mention that any further then
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Court case is scheduled for the last week of July.

Ooops! Beaten to it.

Thank you any way

 

[phoenixcronin]

How many guard operated trains vs how many DOO trains?

How many passengers on each differently operated service?

Stats can be twisted to favour one side or another.

At the end of the day, are you more likely to be dragged down the platform to your death when you get you coat trapped in the door when someone's attention is on the safety of the people on the platform, or on the track ahead?

I'll agree with you that DOO is probably slightly more risky than Guard + Driver, but these I don't think the difference is very significant.

What's more important IMHO is the benefits that DOO brings. I remember a few years ago when the East London Line was DOO and the North London Line had guards, and at places like Canonbury the NLL train would always have longer dwell times, as a result of playing jingle bells, than the ELL train.

This is using the exact same rolling stock, at the same station, with the same type of passenger.

I think having on board staff is a good idea, but there is no need for playing jingle bells with the doors, and so having the guards checking tickets, offering assistance,enforcing first class areas and other rules is more important.

 

[hounddog]

WHAT AN IDIOTIC EXAMPLE TO USE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one gets sent to prison when anyone falls down their own stairs or out of their own bed

Can't you mentally grasp the difference for a DOO train driver to that ??????????????????????????????

How many DOO drivers have been prosecuted, never mind convicted in despatch, incidents?


And by the way shouting and multiple punctuation marks don't strengthen an argument. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Secrettraindri]

DOO as a system of work is safe. It has been in place since 1984 on British Railways. All Underground trains have been DOO for many years. There is no statistical difference in incidents between DOO and operation with Driver / Guard.

At the recent court case concerning the operation of 12 coach DOO trains even ASLEF did not make the argument that DOO is unsafe. :- (Quoted from the judgement)

If it were unsafe, then I have little doubt that that would have been argued before me, and it has not been, as a reason for entitling drivers to refuse what would otherwise on this construction be a lawful and reasonable instruction.

Despatch finishes when you have checked all the doors are clear and made a train safety check. There will be some delay between the check and the train moving when an incident can happen. It is very rare and even if there is someone observing out of an open window they can only react and stop the train by which time the incident will have happened anyway.

The current safety digest on the RSSB website shows that slip trips and falls and much more common than any PTI incidents. If you close the railway completely then they will be reduced but no one suggests you do that

Many times I have seen a guard despatch from the front of a 10 car train at Basingstoke. That is no different from driver DOO.

The RMT position on DOO is totally illogical. If they really believe that DOO is unsafe then they should campaign to bring back guards on all trains. However they seem to say well we can be unsafe in the areas that DOO already operates but No to any extension.

There may be some argument that for very long trains an extra person would help the driver with their workload but I cannot accept there is any need for 2 members of staff on a 1 car unit on the liskeard to looe branch in the middle of the winter. The RMT should be negotiating to get the best deal it can for displaced Guards and the best T&C for the new On Board jobs.

ASLEF are in a difficult position having agreed DOO previously to now argue that it is dangerous. Especially as no one appears to be willing to accept that the environment has changed on the railway in the interim to increase the risks involved. Therefore they are forced to argue this in other terms ie GTR should not just ignore the agreement freely entered into for a maximum of 10 car DOO working when it suits them. As someone at the sharp end of DOO I can assure you the step from 8 to 10 made my life more difficult and I dread the step from 10 to 12 as it is difficult enough checking 10 cars on what are quite often fuzzy sun bleached tiny monitors. Without that second pair of eyes an incident becomes more likely so my liability and responsibility goes up too. A statistical indifference means little to me when I've just seen irresponsible behaviour on the platform for the sixth time that day that could have turned very nasty; or realise I haven't seen something when it's too late because I'm reliant on a poorer quality view than the mark 1 eyeball gives. Much of the extensions of DOO have been based on a process of attrition - it's on this bit of line, why not the rest? It's on 8 cars, why not 10? It seems so much more reasonable then doesn't it?

And I can assure you that if a guard can check a departing train then he most certainly can prevent an incident. I've stopped trains because I just happened to have a view of what's been going on as I've moved off, but whether that view is available is purely accidental and by no means guaranteed. As for what happens after I've moved off, knowing that even though that's beyond my control, I will still be in the frame. I will be the one who essentially carries a presumption of guilt until the RAIB decides I'm not. We already know the CPS is prosecuting a member of staff despite a TOC being happy with what he did. Why should we suffer the stress and fear of this position because dispatch is being made harder but without a clear delineation of where responsibility ends and negligence starts?

And using a 1 car train on the Looe branch is somewhat unhelpful don't you think? Try the more realistic 10 car in London groaning at the seams with more people standing right next to the train refusing to move while they wait for the next one. THAT is the difficult scenario we face. Why shouldn't we say that we think this has gone far enough and it's now getting dangerous? Why shouldn't we be allowed to respond to changing circumstances instead of pretending that because the LAST GENERATION agreed to something that we're happy with it? Maybe because the pro DOO lobby are not the people who have to live with the consequences?

You could argue that in a time when trains are more frequent and longer, when PTI accidents are increasing, when passenger numbers are up massively and the railway has increased responsibility towards accessibility that deliberately cutting staff is hugely illogical. Who does it benefit? Ticket prices will not fall. Taxes will not fall. Service levels WILL fall. Risks WILL rise. Is this to increase premiums to the treasury or profits to the shareholders? Or maybe it's just the start of a campaign to attack those on the front line of the railway who seem like an increasingly easy and friendless target. We've given plenty of reasons why DOO worries us full stop and extensions to it even more so. But no one wants to listen I fear.

 

[ComUtoR]

http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/impro...2015-01-platform-train-interface-strategy.pdf

A good read if anyone is interested.

RSSB research project T743 suggests that advancements in train dispatch methods may be best achieved through localised, station-specific Improvements ‘through assessment of the specific situation at individual stations, on a case-by-case basis’, as opposed to ‘wholesale change in dispatch method from one type of dispatch to another’. The report indicates this is because ‘the risk related to dispatch is considered equally distributed across the methods of dispatch with no single method(s) having a disproportionately high relative risk. This suggests that on average the current dispatch procedures in place at most stations are appropriate to the circumstances. Therefore there is limited safety benefit to be achieved through wholesale change in dispatch method from one type of dispatch to another.

Just one snippet from an in depth analysis of the PTI risks that the industry faces. There is a lot of information about DOO and its risks as well as the mitigation that is being investigated.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/risk-...eporting/2015-07-aspr-full-report-2014-15.pdf

Annual Safety Performance Report.

I make no apologies for seeing safety as being a relative term

 

[Secrettraindri]

I'll agree with you that DOO is probably slightly more risky than Guard + Driver, but these I don't think the difference is very significant.

What's more important IMHO is the benefits that DOO brings. I remember a few years ago when the East London Line was DOO and the North London Line had guards, and at places like Canonbury the NLL train would always have longer dwell times, as a result of playing jingle bells, than the ELL train.

This is using the exact same rolling stock, at the same station, with the same type of passenger.

I think having on board staff is a good idea, but there is no need for playing jingle bells with the doors, and so having the guards checking tickets, offering assistance,enforcing first class areas and other rules is more important.

Don't worry, you'll be getting longer dwell times soon. When I'm DOO in the peaks, with my comparatively poor view, I take much longer than my guard does, playing "jingle bells" to use your insulting term, to dispatch my train. Especially as mine are a bit longer than five cars.

 

[speedy_sticks]

TSGN are closing ticket offices so station staff will be available to help while the station is open like the gate line staff member at my local station does (but not all day).

Not all day , that's my point, it's discrimination.

 

[Secrettraindri]

Indeed I can see if you are a non DOO train driver there is more responsibility for you under DOO. Many of your colleagues (Thameslink) do it all the time for the same salary so why shouldn't you ?

Because ASLEF had agreed DOO for Thameslink drivers in such a way that made it difficult to refuse the extension of this procedure. Thameslink was DOO from the start at a time when DOO was seen as the way forward for many reasons. But times change and it's not as appropriate now. There was also no expectation that DOO would be used on 12 car services. Neither Southern nor Gatwick drivers have been consulted or have agreed to this but their employer entered freely into an agreement to not go beyond 10. Salary makes no difference. Not only are they negotiated on a company by company basis but it's not as if I can say I'll take a pro rata pay cut to avoid DOO because it's going to make my job more difficult and more stressful.