Captain Chaos
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But that's the point. the RSSB to most appearances is considered an independent body, therefore such bias would likely go unnoticed/unchallenged.
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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal
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But that's the point. the RSSB to most appearances is considered an independent body, therefore such bias would likely go unnoticed/unchallenged.
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Matt Taylor
Established Member
Yes it does, I had to use it once and we were well in excess of 5mph. In respect of the McGee incident I would expect the cab controls (within reach if using a droplight) to be the same as a class 455 which means the brake handle could be used.
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-demands-to-see-records-of-southern-bosses260516/
Another RMT press release:
✔️ Hyperbolic language
✔️ Blame the French
✔️ Unsubstantiated claims
Why do they continually refuse to employ PR people. This does not help.
Another RMT press release:
✔️ Hyperbolic language
✔️ Blame the French
✔️ Unsubstantiated claims
Why do they continually refuse to employ PR people. This does not help.
Against Southern's
Unsubstantiated claims
Blame the staff
Hyperbolic language
Do Southern employ PR staff ?
Perhaps, but I imagine that if you showed each statement to the average person on the street, they might not believe Southerns statement, but they would just laugh in the face of the RMT one as it is childish in its argument, presentation and approach.
Or alternatively would any PR people actually work for them?
Robertj21a
On Moderation
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Hopefully, this is something that the RMT (and other Unions ?) can learn from all this - it's often the *perception* of something that is just as/even more important that the basic facts. Southern manages to convey their message fairly clearly but the RMT has been woefully lacking in virtually all of their statements in recent times. The fact that most other people can readily see basic errors and 'silly' comments suggests that they really don't have anybody at all with suitable skills vetting these statements.
I think you're probably right with the state the public are in, social media rules.
Yes I think the issue is more tonal. GTR might be doing very similar things to the RMT in terms of unsubstantiated claims and hyperbole but the tone and style of their communications is very different to the RMT and comes across to the outsider in much better way, I feel, than the way that the RMTs press releases do.
But wouldn't the RMT be better to focus on refutting Southern's claims about staff sickness. Telling the public that members of RMT and ASLEF are available to work but told by Southern the trains they should be working are cancelled. RMT statements come across as rantings of militants. Southern appear more we are trying to help but we can't because the staff keep throwing sickies.
Which is why Southern are being hammered on Twitter especially yesterday when the Twitter team through in a sickie :roll:
That is good but surely a measured joint statement/press release from the RMT and ASLEF would be a good shot across GTR's bow
I agree. The tone of RMT's statements do come across as confrontational, aggressive and a throw back to the 1970's. In contrast, GTR seems measured and professional. Those who don't know the details of the dispute are much more likely to believe GTR, rightly or wrongly.
The perception of unions is not entirely positive. I have heard the following comment made regularly. Why do I need to be in a union, I will do my job properly/ I am not planning on bleeping up etc. Public perception is unions are outdated, hold the country to ransom, hold back business and 'wealth creation'. Unions spout the politics of envy.
I think unions are a force for good but there are issues that need addressing
I agree with you JamesTT. I've been in a union in several industries. I believe that overall they do some good things, but they are not perfect by any means. It's too easy for those that oppose unions completely to portray them as outdated anachronisms of a bygone age, and they don't do enough to counter this portrayal in my eyes.
Muttley
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As Mr McNulty wrote...
...shame he didn't look into how much is wasted on franchise bids, winning and losing. If you use a conservative £2m a bid, for the three bidders for Northern, and the three bidders for TPE, that's £12m wasted. That could buy you a lot of conductors for a lot of years.
But as all the staff on here are trying to tell you, this is ideological not financial.
...shame he didn't look into how much is wasted on franchise bids, winning and losing. If you use a conservative £2m a bid, for the three bidders for Northern, and the three bidders for TPE, that's £12m wasted. That could buy you a lot of conductors for a lot of years.
But as all the staff on here are trying to tell you, this is ideological not financial.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
The RMT press releases fit well into a portrayal of an outdated anachronism of a bygone age..:roll:
A bygone age where workers once had a 'collective voice' and actually could 'oppose' changes that were/are detrimental to them, where management had to get round the table and negotiate over changes to pay and conditions, instead of the attitude nowadays whereby they just do what they like.
How things have changed, quite ironic that people refer to the unions as 'dinasour' yet fail to realise that we appear to be going back to the 19th century when it comes to certain working practices, namely those at the top doing what they like and the workers having no choice but to accept.....
How things have changed, quite ironic that people refer to the unions as 'dinasour' yet fail to realise that we appear to be going back to the 19th century when it comes to certain working practices, namely those at the top doing what they like and the workers having no choice but to accept.....
absolutelymilk
Established Member
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but we don't pay subsidy for losing bids...
The point is that unions are using outdated language and an old fashioned tone in their statements, which merely helps to camouflage the actual issues. They are not helping themselves, and whether we like it or not, style is as important as substance these days.
phoenixcronin
Member
Another embarrassing release from the RMT: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/role-of-the-guard-and-extension-of-doo--southern-gtr250516/
Note: "DISGRACEFUL LETTERS ARE ON THERE WAY"
Maybe someone should teach these dunderheads who put out the press releases some grammar in between blaming the French, the "fat cats" and profits.
I think these types of statements do a disservice to their cause.
Note: "DISGRACEFUL LETTERS ARE ON THERE WAY"
Maybe someone should teach these dunderheads who put out the press releases some grammar in between blaming the French, the "fat cats" and profits.
I think these types of statements do a disservice to their cause.
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Secrettraindri
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I think many of you overestimate the power of trades unions to change things. Much of the collaboration between Union and company is to the company's advantage, eg, collective bargaining. But essentially they are there to represent and defend their members as and when that help is needed, individually or collectively. They cannot pre-empt issues such as a sudden introduction of DOO, whether they saw it coming years ago or not. They can only respond IF there is an issue. With Southern the DOO agreement was for no more than ten cars, and Southern are attempting to go back on this. THAT is the issue they have to concentrate on.
They could explain the wider issues. But even on this forum, whose contributors have a higher than average knowledge of rail issues, it is almost impossible to truly create an understanding of why DOO has a poor reputation amongst front line staff. What chance does the union have with an ill informed public, an anti Union press, the company essentially lying whilst holding the position of power in the relationship and a government that is probably ill informed but happy to take any opportunity to cut rail subs and curtail Union power.
And cheap shots about 70s style press releases and grammar just shows how easy it is to be distracted from the wider issues. Yesterday I read on the BBC web site about a Unite dispute with Thomas Cook - no attempt to explain the issues involved, so the union just looks like troublesome bad guys.
They could explain the wider issues. But even on this forum, whose contributors have a higher than average knowledge of rail issues, it is almost impossible to truly create an understanding of why DOO has a poor reputation amongst front line staff. What chance does the union have with an ill informed public, an anti Union press, the company essentially lying whilst holding the position of power in the relationship and a government that is probably ill informed but happy to take any opportunity to cut rail subs and curtail Union power.
And cheap shots about 70s style press releases and grammar just shows how easy it is to be distracted from the wider issues. Yesterday I read on the BBC web site about a Unite dispute with Thomas Cook - no attempt to explain the issues involved, so the union just looks like troublesome bad guys.
Hardly embarrassing.
FROM RMT PRESS OFFICE
Immediate
RMT demands action from Government as even Tory MP's are now queuing up to demand that GTR be stripped of their franchise
RAIL UNION RMT today stepped up the pressure for Government action on basket-case rail franchise GTR as even Tory MP's have begun queuing up to demand that they be stripped of the Southern and Thameslink franchises.
Tories from Lewes and Croydon have been forced to wade in after a campaign of pressure from RMT has mobilised thousands of passengers against axing guards and closing ticket offices.
Lewes MP Maria Caulfield said in her local paper;
Despite repeated attempts by MPs across Sussex to ask Southern Rail to improve their services, this month sees the worst performance to date with figures showing Southern and Thameslink being the worst performing operators.
My constituents can take no more and are fed up with cancellations, late running trains, strikes and early terminations. I have asked to meet with the rail minister as a matter of urgency.
Conservative Croydon South MP Chris Philp said in the Standard that;
"Southern Railways should be immediately stripped of its franchise because performance levels are getting worse for thousands of passengers despite promises to improve."
RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said;
"GTR have waged war against both their staff and their passengers and with even Tories now lining up to stick the boot in its time for this mob to be thrown off the railway with the public sector given a chance to sort this mess out.
"No amount of fare-payers money blown on advertising, and no amount of abuse of their own staff, can spin GTR out of this one. The attack on the guards, safety and ticket offices is all part of an overall picture of a privatised rail franchise in total meltdown.
"The game is up, the racket is over and the Government should be forced to step in immediately. "
Ends
Immediate
RMT demands action from Government as even Tory MP's are now queuing up to demand that GTR be stripped of their franchise
RAIL UNION RMT today stepped up the pressure for Government action on basket-case rail franchise GTR as even Tory MP's have begun queuing up to demand that they be stripped of the Southern and Thameslink franchises.
Tories from Lewes and Croydon have been forced to wade in after a campaign of pressure from RMT has mobilised thousands of passengers against axing guards and closing ticket offices.
Lewes MP Maria Caulfield said in her local paper;
Despite repeated attempts by MPs across Sussex to ask Southern Rail to improve their services, this month sees the worst performance to date with figures showing Southern and Thameslink being the worst performing operators.
My constituents can take no more and are fed up with cancellations, late running trains, strikes and early terminations. I have asked to meet with the rail minister as a matter of urgency.
Conservative Croydon South MP Chris Philp said in the Standard that;
"Southern Railways should be immediately stripped of its franchise because performance levels are getting worse for thousands of passengers despite promises to improve."
RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said;
"GTR have waged war against both their staff and their passengers and with even Tories now lining up to stick the boot in its time for this mob to be thrown off the railway with the public sector given a chance to sort this mess out.
"No amount of fare-payers money blown on advertising, and no amount of abuse of their own staff, can spin GTR out of this one. The attack on the guards, safety and ticket offices is all part of an overall picture of a privatised rail franchise in total meltdown.
"The game is up, the racket is over and the Government should be forced to step in immediately. "
Ends
Muttley
Member
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- 247
Who does then ?
Given that everyone is saying it's the DfT behind the drive to DOO, what would handing the franchise over to the public sector achieve? Will the government be reversing their decision on DOO and the OBS role if GTR are kicked out?
RMT's statement here is incoherent and contains almost no actual information on what issues they have with GTR. The obvious spelling errors, poor writing skills and lack of basic proof reading make them look pretty amateurish against GTR's PR machine, whether you agree with them or not.
D1009
Established Member
The phrase is superfluous anyway, for what other reasons would a TOC move to DOO?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
A high profile organisation that is there to represent its member's rights and not to place itself to the fore of socialist political matters, but as it deliberately puts out press releases couched in socialist style of stock phrases that hark back to the 1970's, it certainly deserves every "cheap shot" aimed at it. As for poor grammar, I will let that matter speak for itself.
I remain convinced that the union is not unlike the current Labour Party in its high level power base of those left-wing factions in the party who have seized upon the opportunity to fill the gap after the last leadership election.
AlexNL
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As much as I agree with RMT and its members about the situation, their handling of it is awful. They really should hire some skilled PR people to deal with this situation, because obviously they can't do it on their own.
GTR employ a good PR agency. Their press releases are professional and sound neutral in tone, they could - almost - copy them onto Wikipedia and be admitted. RMT's? Not so much.
GTR employ a good PR agency. Their press releases are professional and sound neutral in tone, they could - almost - copy them onto Wikipedia and be admitted. RMT's? Not so much.
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