Southern England EMU’S

[yorksrob]

There were a selection of HAP's that found their way into the South Eastern side into the early 90's (remember catching one between Ashford and Pluckley at about that time) and there were quite a few on the North Kent services into the mid-90's.

They were quite extensively facelifted by NSE, so I wonder if they were expecting to keep them a bit longer, but the early 90's recession and consequent drop in passenger numbers did for them.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I think some of the CEPs were not available around that time, as some were away getting heavy rebuild at Swindon. It took a few years to do them all, and each one was away about 2 months (I forget details now)

This resulted in some older stock being retained, short term, especially on the more lightly used routes, pending the delivery of the networkers. Probably why some of the 4-CAPs ended up on some selected South East suburban services about 1986-1990

All the CEPs were done by 1984 from memory

But 4 went over to the Central Division as 4 TEPs (3 CEP with unrefurbished BEP buffet car) to cover for the asbestos removal from early 4 CIGs

 

[nw1]

I once travelled on one from Shepherds Well to Faversham on a Dover-Victoria stopper (which would more usually be VEPs or CEPs) in about 1988.

IIRC the remaining First Class sections on the CAPs were declassified in about 1991 or 1992, after which they were relegated to suburban services for their last few years before withdrawal. I think they occasionally used to turn up on suburban services vice EPB even before that, though.

Staying on CAPs (which I presume would stand for Coastway hAlf-lavatory electro-Pneumatic brake), were they ever used on non-Coastway services regularly during their time on the Central Division?

I remember in 1983 there was a half-hourly stopping London Bridge-Crystal Palace-East Croydon-Redhill service in the timetable, but I never saw this. This sort of service would have been a candidate for CAPs (slow, and short distance) so wonder if they ever ventured into the London area at this time on diagrammed working?

 

[Controller1701]

nw1, In my scanned copy of the winter 82/83 carriage workings there is a 4 CAP which does the following diagram (or part of depending how the diagrams were written)

12:55 Lovers Walk Depot to Brighton 4 CAP + 4 VEP
13:38 Brighton to Gatwick Airport (2B35) 4 CAP
14:21 Gatwick Airport to Victoria (2B35) 4 VEG + 4 CAP
15:18 Victoria to Gatwick Airport (2E39) 4 CAP + 4 VEG
16:00 Gatwick Airport to Brighton (2E39) 4 CAP
17:19 Brighton to London Bridge (4G10) (Mail)
19:25 London Bridge to Redhill (2G25) 4 CIG + 4 CAP
Shunt to the Post Office Dock
21:06 Redhill to Brighton (1G29) (Mail)
22:26 Brighton to Lovers Walk Depot

This seems to be the only non East/West Coastway use of a 4 CAP in that period (Other uses in other timetable periods may apply)

Paul

 

[Islineclear3_1]

4 CAPs were regulars on the Dover Priory - Victoria stoppers (via Faversham) during NSE days

 

[AY1975]

What I found odd about the Bulleid-style 2-HAPs was the one-sided half compartment at the end of the corridor carriage, with a bench seat facing a blank wall. I travelled on one of these up to Victoria in the 1980s, I think, and was rather surprised at the internal layout of the carriage. I don't think they were used on services from Waterloo, my usual way up to London, and I'd not been on one before.

Not by the 1980s, although I believe that in about 1969 some of the SR design HAPs were converted to SAPs and transferred from the South Eastern (for which they were originally built) to the South Western Division and used on outer suburban services out of Waterloo for only about a year, then converted back to HAPs just a year later in 1970. From then on they all ran on the Central Division, I think mainly on Coastway services until they were converted to SAPs once again in about 1976 and relegated to suburban services.

So both the BR and SR design HAPs ran on all three divisions at various times, albeit only very briefly on the SWD for the SR design units.

There were a selection of HAP's that found their way into the South Eastern side into the early 90's (remember catching one between Ashford and Pluckley at about that time) and there were quite a few on the North Kent services into the mid-90's.

They were quite extensively facelifted by NSE, so I wonder if they were expecting to keep them a bit longer, but the early 90's recession and consequent drop in passenger numbers did for them.

Well they were painted into NSE livery and reupholstered, but unlike the refurbished EPBs (and even some of the Class 205 and 207 DEMUs by the 1990s and early 2000s) they retained tungsten interior lighting until withdrawal. They also remained non-gangwayed (as did the refurbished EPBs) and kept their original interior layouts.

 

[yorksrob]

Well they were painted into NSE livery and reupholstered, but unlike the refurbished EPBs (and even some of the Class 205 and 207 DEMUs by the 1990s and early 2000s) they retained tungsten interior lighting until withdrawal. They also remained non-gangwayed (as did the refurbished EPBs) and kept their original interior layouts.

Similar to the thumpers in that respect.

 

[norbitonflyer]

What I found odd about the Bulleid-style 2-HAPs was the one-sided half compartment at the end of the corridor carriage, with a bench seat facing a blank wall. I don't think they were used on services from Waterloo, my usual way up to London, and I'd not been on one before.

According to Longworth the SR HAPs were originally allocated to Thanet services, moved to the SWD's "New" (Cobham) route and Central Division's Coastway routes in 1969 but all allocated to Central Division inner suburban routes by 1976.

The half-compartment (officially called a "coupe") was needed because the toilet, the driving cab, and extra legroom in the three 1st Class compartments left not quite enough room for five complete 2nd class compartments.

A "Coupe" compartment was also to be found in the 2BILs.

 

[nw1]

There were a selection of HAP's that found their way into the South Eastern side into the early 90's (remember catching one between Ashford and Pluckley at about that time) and there were quite a few on the North Kent services into the mid-90's.

They were quite extensively facelifted by NSE, so I wonder if they were expecting to keep them a bit longer, but the early 90's recession and consequent drop in passenger numbers did for them.

Interesting, as there were no HAPs on the SE division in 1986 or 1987, from what I could make out (CAPs, yes, but not HAPs). There were some 8VEP+2EPB formations on the peak-hour 20-min-interval Tunbridge Wells services, though.

The early 90s recession also saw the HAPs off from the South Western Division. They were withdrawn from the start of the autumn timetable in September 1991. Said this already but I recall one day in September 1991 at Waterloo with a long and depressing series of automated announcements of the form "From Monday 30 September the 17:XX to [Surrey/Hampshire station] will be shortened in length to N coaches". This was all down to the withdrawal of the HAPs; 10-cars became 8 and some 12-car VEP/CIG formations also became 8, because of the need for VEPs or CIGs to replace HAPs in 4VEP/4HAP type formations.

 

[yorksrob]

Interesting, as there were no HAPs on the SE division in 1986 or 1987, from what I could make out (CAPs, yes, but not HAPs). There were some 8VEP+2EPB formations on the peak-hour 20-min-interval Tunbridge Wells services, though.

The early 90s recession also saw the HAPs off from the South Western Division. They were withdrawn from the start of the autumn timetable in September 1991. Said this already but I recall one day in September 1991 at Waterloo with a long and depressing series of automated announcements of the form "From Monday 30 September the 17:XX to [Surrey/Hampshire station] will be shortened in length to N coaches". This was all down to the withdrawal of the HAPs; 10-cars became 8 and some 12-car VEP/CIG formations also became 8, because of the need for VEPs or CIGs to replace HAPs in 4VEP/4HAP type formations.

Withdrawing passenger stock before the passenger numbers justify it is sadly nothing new I suppose.

 

[DustyBin]

Interesting, as there were no HAPs on the SE division in 1986 or 1987, from what I could make out (CAPs, yes, but not HAPs). There were some 8VEP+2EPB formations on the peak-hour 20-min-interval Tunbridge Wells services, though.

The early 90s recession also saw the HAPs off from the South Western Division. They were withdrawn from the start of the autumn timetable in September 1991. Said this already but I recall one day in September 1991 at Waterloo with a long and depressing series of automated announcements of the form "From Monday 30 September the 17:XX to [Surrey/Hampshire station] will be shortened in length to N coaches". This was all down to the withdrawal of the HAPs; 10-cars became 8 and some 12-car VEP/CIG formations also became 8, because of the need for VEPs or CIGs to replace HAPs in 4VEP/4HAP type formations.

Was an 8VEP+2EPB allowed? I thought there was some kind of rule when it came to running combinations of 75mph and 90mph units; I can’t remember what it was but I’m sure I read about it somewhere. If there was, I presume it was to prevent say a 75mph unit with a single powered bogie (in this case the 2EPB) from suffering damage by being dragged by a pair of 90mph units with four powered bogies between them (in this case 2 x 4VEPs). This example may of course have been within the rules presuming they did actually exist; it’s all a bit vague now!

 

[Beebman]

Was an 8VEP+2EPB allowed? I thought there was some kind of rule when it came to running combinations of 75mph and 90mph units; I can’t remember what it was but I’m sure I read about it somewhere. If there was, I presume it was to prevent say a 75mph unit with a single powered bogie (in this case the 2EPB) from suffering damage by being dragged by a pair of 90mph units with four powered bogies between them (in this case 2 x 4VEPs). This example may of course have been within the rules presuming they did actually exist; it’s all a bit vague now!

In the early 80s there was a peak hour fast service (I think at 17:05) from Waterloo to Guildford via Aldershot that was rostered as 4CIG+4EPB (SR-type) which I took a few times as it was possible to change at Ascot to an earlier stopping service to Reading. I don't know if the driver had to limit speed to 75mph although there probably wouldn't have been much opportunity to exceed that anyway.

 

[chrisdoward]

Interesting, as there were no HAPs on the SE division in 1986 or 1987, from what I could make out (CAPs, yes, but not HAPs). There were some 8VEP+2EPB formations on the peak-hour 20-min-interval Tunbridge Wells services, though.

The early 90s recession also saw the HAPs off from the South Western Division. They were withdrawn from the start of the autumn timetable in September 1991. Said this already but I recall one day in September 1991 at Waterloo with a long and depressing series of automated announcements of the form "From Monday 30 September the 17:XX to [Surrey/Hampshire station] will be shortened in length to N coaches". This was all down to the withdrawal of the HAPs; 10-cars became 8 and some 12-car VEP/CIG formations also became 8, because of the need for VEPs or CIGs to replace HAPs in 4VEP/4HAP type formations.

Some of the HAP's off the South Western Division ended their days on the South Eastern Division. Some were formed into 4-CAP's. They lasted pretty much to end of slam-door workings on the South Eastern. I used to get the 06:09 from West Dulwich to London Victoria in the mid-90's on my way to work as it was the only convienent slam-door train for me and it was quite oftenformed with a HAP. Alas wasn't keeping any records, so I don't know which units were involved.

 

[DustyBin]

In the early 80s there was a peak hour fast service (I think at 17:05) from Waterloo to Guildford via Aldershot that was rostered as 4CIG+4EPB (SR-type) which I took a few times as it was possible to change at Ascot to an earlier stopping service to Reading. I don't know if the driver had to limit speed to 75mph although there probably wouldn't have been much opportunity to exceed that anyway.

I’ve seen plenty of photographs of similar workings, a single EPB plus 90mph unit was fairly common I think. It was the 8VEP + 2EPB that caught my attention for the reasons stated. Hopefully somebody knows!

 

[nw1]

Was an 8VEP+2EPB allowed? I thought there was some kind of rule when it came to running combinations of 75mph and 90mph units; I can’t remember what it was but I’m sure I read about it somewhere. If there was, I presume it was to prevent say a 75mph unit with a single powered bogie (in this case the 2EPB) from suffering damage by being dragged by a pair of 90mph units with four powered bogies between them (in this case 2 x 4VEPs). This example may of course have been within the rules presuming they did actually exist; it’s all a bit vague now!

I am almost-100% sure that I saw 8VEP + 2EPB (BR-type) combos on these services in August 1987. They were definitely EPBs, and not HAPs.

Some of the HAP's off the South Western Division ended their days on the South Eastern Division. Some were formed into 4-CAP's. They lasted pretty much to end of slam-door workings on the South Eastern. I used to get the 06:09 from West Dulwich to London Victoria in the mid-90's on my way to work as it was the only convienent slam-door train for me and it was quite oftenformed with a HAP. Alas wasn't keeping any records, so I don't know which units were involved.

Yes, I've heard that both on this thread and other previous ones. Until recently I thought that September 1991 was literally the very end for HAPs/CAPs.

nw1, In my scanned copy of the winter 82/83 carriage workings there is a 4 CAP which does the following diagram (or part of depending how the diagrams were written)

12:55 Lovers Walk Depot to Brighton 4 CAP + 4 VEP
13:38 Brighton to Gatwick Airport (2B35) 4 CAP
14:21 Gatwick Airport to Victoria (2B35) 4 VEG + 4 CAP
15:18 Victoria to Gatwick Airport (2E39) 4 CAP + 4 VEG
16:00 Gatwick Airport to Brighton (2E39) 4 CAP
17:19 Brighton to London Bridge (4G10) (Mail)
19:25 London Bridge to Redhill (2G25) 4 CIG + 4 CAP
Shunt to the Post Office Dock
21:06 Redhill to Brighton (1G29) (Mail)
22:26 Brighton to Lovers Walk Depot

This seems to be the only non East/West Coastway use of a 4 CAP in that period (Other uses in other timetable periods may apply)

Paul

OK - many thanks for that. In actuality the 13.38 and 15.18 workings were through Victoria-Brighton services I suspect, they were cetainly shown that way in the following year (1983/4) timetable.

 

[43096]

In the early 80s there was a peak hour fast service (I think at 17:05) from Waterloo to Guildford via Aldershot that was rostered as 4CIG+4EPB (SR-type) which I took a few times as it was possible to change at Ascot to an earlier stopping service to Reading. I don't know if the driver had to limit speed to 75mph although there probably wouldn't have been much opportunity to exceed that anyway.

Certainly nowadays there's nowhere on the Windsor lines with a maximum speed above 70mph.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I am almost-100% sure that I saw 8VEP + 2EPB (BR-type) combos on these services in August 1987. They were definitely EPBs, and not HAPs.

I'm pretty sure too that I saw 4VEP + 4VEP + 2EPB formations going in and out of Waterloo on the main line, with the EPB usually at the London end of the train, on outer suburban services.

 

[Goldfish62]

4-JOP : Juniper Outer-suburban Porterbrook.

Yes, this did appear on the data panels.

 

[43096]

4-JOP : Juniper Outer-suburban Porterbrook.

Yes, this did appear on the data panels.

When they were new it reportedly stood for "Jump Out and Push" because of their chronic unreliability.

 

[Taunton]

What I found odd about the Bulleid-style 2-HAPs was the one-sided half compartment at the end of the corridor carriage, with a bench seat facing a blank wall. I travelled on one of these up to Victoria in the 1980s, I think, and was rather surprised at the internal layout of the carriage. I don't think they were used on services from Waterloo, my usual way up to London, and I'd not been on one before.

A Southern tradition; The 1930s 2-BILs had the same, and other stocks as well; it was called a "coupe". Not a foot of length for seating was wasted. I remember giving it a tryout for legroom in preserved 2-BIL 2090.

Of course nowadays you would just squeeze the seats and compartments up rather than staying with comfortable dimensions.

 

[yorksrob]

It is interesting how many of the 2nd Gen slammers copied their layouts from 1st generation ones. BIL/HAP, COR/CEP etc.

It seems the CIG units were the first to have a real rethink in this respect.

 

[delt1c]

If memory serves me correctly I think some EPB’s were geared for 90mph to allow strengthening of express services

 

[DustyBin]

I am almost-100% sure that I saw 8VEP + 2EPB (BR-type) combos on these services in August 1987. They were definitely EPBs, and not HAPs.

I believe you (just to be clear!) but it’s got me thinking though about what combinations were allowed.

Having been thinking about this over the course of the day (as you do!) I’m almost certain I read about it in an old EMU recognition guide by Colin J. Marsden. I’ll have to dig it out.

I'm pretty sure too that I saw 4VEP + 4VEP + 2EPB formations going in and out of Waterloo on the main line, with the EPB usually at the London end of the train, on outer suburban services.

As above really!

If memory serves me correctly I think some EPB’s were geared for 90mph to allow strengthening of express services

There were certainly some 4EPBs; they’re discussed earlier in this thread.

 

[4SubAsociation]

If memory serves me correctly I think some EPB’s were geared for 90mph to allow strengthening of express services

That is somewhat correct. The Ex Tyneside Units where express gear ratioed when based in Tyneside (for reasons we are unsure of). They where converted to 75mph gear ratio then when 053 went to departmental service it went back to express gear ratio (Ex Hap Unit).

The Suburban Electric Railway Association - South Tyneside EPB Unit

 

[DustyBin]

That is somewhat correct. The Ex Tyneside Units where express gear ratioed when based in Tyneside (for reasons we are unsure of). They where converted to 75mph gear ratio then when 053 went to departmental service it went back to express gear ratio (Ex Hap Unit).

The Suburban Electric Railway Association - South Tyneside EPB Unit

I didn’t know the Tyneside units were originally geared for 90mph. As you say, why?

 

[4SubAsociation]

I didn’t know the Tyneside units were originally geared for 90mph. As you say, why?

To be honest. We don't know why it was for done for the tyneside area (very little opportunity for 90mph running). However for the departmental side. That was done for the testing of the Tonbridge to Hastings line when it was electrified.

 

[DustyBin]

To be honest. We don't know why it was for done for the tyneside area (very little opportunity for 90mph running). However for the departmental side. That was done for the testing of the Tonbridge to Hastings line when it was electrified.

The latter makes sense, but like you I can’t think where on the Tyneside network they’d have been able to stretch their legs. I don’t actually know what the line speeds were on the network but I can only think of the ECML section where it may have been achievable if running non-stop (although even that seems unlikely). Do you know if there were any expansion plans for the network at the time that may explain it? Or maybe the 90mph geared bogies were all that were available at the time? It’s certainly interesting!

 

[Beebman]

The latter makes sense, but like you I can’t think where on the Tyneside network they’d have been able to stretch their legs. I don’t actually know what the line speeds were on the network but I can only think of the ECML section where it may have been achievable if running non-stop (although even that seems unlikely). Do you know if there were any expansion plans for the network at the time that may explain it? Or maybe the 90mph geared bogies were all that were available at the time? It’s certainly interesting!

Although the units were only used in passenger service on the South Shields line, my understanding is that they were based at Gosforth Depot which would have involved running as ECS non-stop along the ECML as far as Benton where the south-west curve was electrified. However the following link has a photo of one unit showing a destination of 'Newcastle - Express':

http://www.emus.co.uk/tyn.htm

Were there express services to South Shields or was the photo posed for publicity purposes?

 

[Controller1701]

I am almost-100% sure that I saw 8VEP + 2EPB (BR-type) combos on these services in August 1987. They were definitely EPBs, and not HAPs.



Yes, I've heard that both on this thread and other previous ones. Until recently I thought that September 1991 was literally the very end for HAPs/CAPs.



OK - many thanks for that. In actuality the 13.38 and 15.18 workings were through Victoria-Brighton services I suspect, they were cetainly shown that way in the following year (1983/4) timetable.

Indeed the 13:38 and 15:18 were through services, I decided to split them in that manner to facilitate the attaching and detaching of the VEG unit being clear rather than possibly impling to other readers that the train was 8 car through out.

 

[30907]

Although the units were only used in passenger service on the South Shields line, my understanding is that they were based at Gosforth Depot which would have involved running as ECS non-stop along the ECML as far as Benton where the south-west curve was electrified. However the following link has a photo of one unit showing a destination of 'Newcastle - Express':

http://www.emus.co.uk/tyn.htm

Were there express services to South Shields or was the photo posed for publicity purposes?

Not that I can find - but there were peak hour expresses on the Coast route and I imagine the destination blinds were common.
Did the BR units ever work on the North lines?