Southern launch competition for 130 new carriages

[ushawk]

As posted on the Southern website today -

Southern launches competition for 130 new carriages

Date: 16 Sep 2011

Southern has today launched a competition to provide 130 new carriages to help meet capacity demand on its network.

The company has issued a PQQ (Pre-Qualification Questionnaire) to potential suppliers, with the trains due for delivery no later than December 2013.

The extra carriages are needed to enable Southern to deliver its growth targets and meet the capacity increases it is scheduled to deliver in its December 2013 timetable. The High Level Output Statement had assumed the 23 Class 377 units on sub-lease to First Capital Connect would have been returned in time to meet these commitments, but this is not now likely to happen in time.

Chris Burchell, Managing Director of Southern, said: “Without the return of our sub-leased vehicles we need to explore other options to provide the necessary capacity to meet our passengers’ needs. Critical to the success of this project will be the ability of suppliers to demonstrate they can deliver the trains on time while still offering affordability and value for money.”

 

[northwichcat]

Why not order another 30 x 350/1s but without the 3rd rail equipment. Sublease the existing LM 350/1s to Southern. Then when the 377s are available, return the 350/1s and give either the new 350s or the LM 323s to Northern/TPE?

It also raises the question of where will 23 trains go after they are replaced by the Thameslink program.

 

[ushawk]

So will the new trains go to Southern for a little bit, then be moved on with the 377s from FCC coming back to "replace" them ?

Or will the 377s just be AC only and moved somewhere else ?

 

[Yew]

We are seeing a lot of new train orders/possible train orders atm.....

350's for tpe, extra voyager carriages, this.... Have the DaFT started trusting the roscos and TOC's to run things again?

 

[87015]

130 carriages being 32 and a half four car units?! Presumably some combination of three and four car carts then.

 

[ushawk]

130 carriages equals to 26 5-car trains - so it might be that, or Southern will add one or two more coaches.

 

[BlythPower]

Common sense would suggest they'd go for a design compatible for multiple working with their 377s. So expect the order to be for anything else but 377s... :roll:

 

[DjU]

It also raises the question of where will 23 trains go after they are replaced by the Thameslink program.

Not really. They'll still likely go to Southern.

 

[Chris125]

Its inconceivable they'll be anything but 377's, they'll have to be compatible so i doubt anyone but Bombardier will even bid.

Chris

 

[northwichcat]

Not really. They'll still likely go to Southern.

Southern mention on their site that the new units are required because the 377/5s won't be available on time not that they will be required in addition to the 377/5s.

However, the planned number of new carriages is slightly higher than the number of 377/5 carriages so logic would suggest Southern would keep the new units and let the 377/5s go elsewhere opposed to keeping a slightly smaller number of 377/5 carriages or keeping a few trains of a new type alongside the 377/5s.

I'm sure some people will suggest Southern could use both but that's not the way our rail franchise system works. Franchisees usually have to prove they have more need for additional carriages than other franchises have in order to get them.
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Its inconceivable they'll be anything but 377's, they'll have to be compatible so i doubt anyone but Bombardier will even bid.

In the time scale Southern have defined the order will have to be more vehicles of an existing design opposed to a new design. If the units aren't delivered in time then the order would be pointless as the 377/5s may be available first.

 

[DjU]

Southern mention on their site that the new units are required because the 377/5s won't be available on time not that they will be required in addition to the 377/5s.

By the same contrast they never say that these carriages are in complete replacements for the 377/5, merely that the 377/5 will not returned in time for Southern to implement their HLOS commitments.

A case of 2+2=5?

Yet again, you seem to interpret something one way only to throw out the other possibilities.

In relation to other statement,

I'm sure some people will suggest Southern could use both but that's not the way our rail franchise system works. Franchisees usually have to prove they have more need for additional carriages than other franchises have in order to get them.

As well as the delay to the 377/5, it is increasing looking like the 456 will be going to SWT for one part of their own 10 car scheme so there will be a need to cover a slight shortfall of stock there (the ELL extension and the existing 10 car project are not likely to cover it all) as well as Southerns HLOS commitments.

By the time the original 377/5 are released it is still likely the 313s will be around (there no indication this order will remove these)

There are also other things that have never truly been 'decided' such as who or what will run things like the Sutton/Wimbledon - Blackfriars bay loop service - will it be an add-on to the Thameslink franchise and run with new stock or transferred to the South Central Franchise. If transferred to the South Central Franchise, there is now possible stock, whereas before it may of been a push.


You have a habit of taking things far to much at face value an too literally sometimes.

 

[northwichcat]

By the same contrast they never say that these carriages are in complete replacements for the 377/5, merely that the 377/5 will not returned in time for Southern to implement their HLOS commitments.

A case of 2+2=5?

Yet again, you seem to interpret something one way only to throw out the other possibilities.

If 2+2=5 then tell me for certain exactly how the 377s and the new EMUs will be utilised. If you don't know then you can't say 2+2=5. I did use the phrase 'logic would suggest' as we all know in the railways logic doesn't always persist.

Southern are required to bring in around 100 extra EMU vehicles by the end of the 2014 CP. If they get 130 new EMU vehicles by Dec 2013 then job done. If they get over 200 then they've got spares to cascade to other TOCs, some of which will get less than they should by the end of 2014 - Northern and FGW in particular.

 

[WatcherZero]

Collins is right, this is superceding the cascade rather than in addition to.

 

[northwichcat]

I think some people forget that because units are subleased from another operator doesn't mean they will go in to service with the operator that subleased them if circumstances change.

The 142s subleased from Northern to FGW will go back in to service with Northern but Northern had to prove they had need for these units still as on paper they had been replaced by Sprinters so were no longer required for their original purpose. While the 180s leased by East Coast will never be used by East Coast.

 

[the sniper]

People of Derby, put down your pitchforks and burning David Cameron effigys, Hammond/DafT has come to your aid...?

Thameslink probably wasn't the be all and end all, after all! Though most people already knew that. :roll:

 

[Minstral25]

Will the 456's really go to SWT?

Southern has a commitment to run South London services as 10 coach trains. The current number of 455's (which are 4 coach) is 46 on Southern, double them up and you get 23 8 coach trains and you need 23 2 car units which is the 24 2-car Class 456's.

So if Southern lose the 456's, where are they going to find the 2 car units to connect to the 455's to make TFL's 10 car trains.

Or will the 455's be sent to the coastway to replace the 313's?

Good news for us Southern commuters and a well needed replacement of our missing stock with Thameslink but why wait to 2013.....

 

[TEW]

The three car 377s that are being transferred from the Coastway to London suburban services by the introduction of 313s will allow ten car trains to be formed. Two three car 377s and a four car coupled together.

 

[tbtc]

Will the 456's really go to SWT?

Southern has a commitment to run South London services as 10 coach trains. The current number of 455's (which are 4 coach) is 46 on Southern, double them up and you get 23 8 coach trains and you need 23 2 car units which is the 24 2-car Class 456's.

So if Southern lose the 456's, where are they going to find the 2 car units to connect to the 455's to make TFL's 10 car trains.

Or will the 455's be sent to the coastway to replace the 313's?

Good news for us Southern commuters and a well needed replacement of our missing stock with Thameslink but why wait to 2013.....

Could the SWT/ Southern swap be improved if SWT ordered some 450s as part of the LM/TPE order for 350s? That way SWT wouldn't need so many additional units from Southern?

 

[Minstral25]

The three car 377s that are being transferred from the Coastway to London suburban services by the introduction of 313s will allow ten car trains to be formed. Two three car 377s and a four car coupled together.

But 377's can't run in multiple to 455's and the 455's are the mainstay of certain Southern Metro routes.

Where would the 455's work if the 377's replaced them?

being a little mischievous maybe it could be that the 455's are going with the 456's to SWT???????? I think there are a few already on SWT

 

[cav1975]

I thought that Southern had just returned some Gatwick Express units to the leasing company - couldn't they use those and some 508s from Southeastern & London Overground to help out?

 

[MCR247]

No, 460s are useless for anything except airport work, 508s won't make any difference

 

[daikilo]

No, 460s are useless for anything except airport work, 508s won't make any difference

Take the specific airport features back out of a 460 and put standard features back in and they will be as good as the family from which they were derived.

That said. Gatwick is an airport and passengers will arrive with what they want. Replacing a 460 with normal stock may not address the real issues of an airport feader.

 

[TEW]

But 377's can't run in multiple to 455's and the 455's are the mainstay of certain Southern Metro routes.

Where would the 455's work if the 377's replaced them?

being a little mischievous maybe it could be that the 455's are going with the 456's to SWT???????? I think there are a few already on SWT

You can have a ten car formation just with 377s though. 377s are already used a fair bit on Southern Metro routes. There is no need to replace them entirely, just swap the fleet around a bit. Put 377s on routes where you need ten carriages, with 455s where you need 4, 8 or 12.

 

[MCR247]

Take the specific airport features back out of a 460 and put standard features back in and they will be as good as the family from which they were derived.

Back in? They are the same now as they were when they were built.

It'd simply be too costly to be viable for 8 units, which are only 8 car anyway

 

[Fincra5]

But 377's can't run in multiple to 455's and the 455's are the mainstay of certain Southern Metro routes.

Where would the 455's work if the 377's replaced them?

being a little mischievous maybe it could be that the 455's are going with the 456's to SWT???????? I think there are a few already on SWT

There are a fair amount of South London Line services operated by 8car 377s, besides teh 455s. So do a bit of swaping and you get 10car 377s on the line. 455s probably still on it off-peak etc.

 

[150001]

Well, Bombardier might be getting more work then.

 

[northwichcat]

Good news for us Southern commuters and a well needed replacement of our missing stock with Thameslink but why wait to 2013.....

It'll take that long to award a tender, draw up a contract, build the trains, test the trains and then deliver them. Siemens reportedly issued a warning relating to Manchester Airport to Scotland stock saying it needs to be confirmed this year if it is to be in service by the end of 2013.

If you want stock before 2013 then it's a choice of mk3 carriages or 508s.

 

[87015]

There are a fair amount of South London Line services operated by 8car 377s, besides teh 455s. So do a bit of swaping and you get 10car 377s on the line. 455s probably still on it off-peak etc.

The South London Line (I presume thats the Peckham Rye routes) can only take eight carriages to start with. But thats academic as the majority of SN trains through Peckham Rye are 4 cars throughout the peak, apart from two sets of 6 car 377s and a single eight car swamp so there is loads of room to lengthen the existing services. The 508s would be a big help for starters, even if you only battered ten of the fifteen into use and used eight (in pairs) you could nearly double the peak seated capacity.

 

[Minstral25]

The South London line is being taken over by the ELL extension but I assume your really mean suburban services from London Bridge through Peckham and Crystal Palace.

Some fair points but my understanding of the franchise commitment to TFL is that these trains will all become 10 car trains all day, as will all metro services from Victoria and down the Sydenham line. Today's service is not relevant to this commitment which is why they need more trains.

I can't imagine the 455's only being allocated to off peak trains as that would be quite a waste of seats. Nor as they are set up as inner suburban units would they be welcome on outer suburban services where 4, 8 or 12 coach trains be actually run

Hence 455's I think will need to run as part of 10 coach units (2x455 plus 1x456) unless they are transferred out of the metro area. Hence my question on will the 456's really move?

A simpler solution (and perhaps cheaper) is to buy several 377 centre cars (all seats - no loo's or cabs) and make the metro 377's all 5 car units?


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The three car 377s that are being transferred from the Coastway to London suburban services by the introduction of 313s will allow ten car trains to be formed. Two three car 377s and a four car coupled together.

Yes I understand this but the 377 formed trains will not be enough on their own - There are 28 377/3's but that will form 14 "10" coach trains assuming no maintenance spare

 

[DavidBusDriver]

Centre cars really is such a simple solution and I am sure that software issues can be resolved in relation to the maximum length of 377. As an addition to this, wonder what the prospects are for additional lengthening and expanding of the Class 378 fleet, confess I am unsure if there are any platform length restrictions on where they operate currently, but the railway rumour mill is often indicating that a lot of the 'Metro' work is expected to transfer over to LOROL in the future. 5-car class 378's, maybe working in multiple would be a neat solution to the 10-car operations in the Southern and potentially the South West areas. Plus with the added political benefit of keeping the Derby production line going.