Southern on-board supervisor ticket checks

[gimmea50anyday]

I doubt it unless they retain their safety critical credentials. A conductor/guard/TM can cover an OBS but an OBS cannot cover conductors as OBS do not have train door operation and despatch training

 

[Stan_Butler]

Can services that are supposed to have an OBS run without one, or is it the case that if none are available the service doesn’t run?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’ve been on all 115x 700s many times and never seen a ticket check on board Thameslink once, so I’m not sure where all of you are seeing them happen.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Can services that are supposed to have an OBS run without one, or is it the case that if none are available the service doesn’t run?

Thats pretty much the whole point of DOO, no second member of staff required to be part of the train operation. OBS dont despatch trains or operate the doors, dont have any need for personal trackside safety certification as they wont carry out train protection etc....

Southern CAN run trains without an OBS on board, there are supposed to be tightly controlled limitations but wether these are followed or are being quietly slipped away I cannot say, but it wouldn't suprise me if the numbers of OBSs started declining by stealth through natural wastage and not filling vacancies. As i understand it, former conductor OBSs retain their former job role wage but new OBSs are paid a lower wage which is aroound £10k less, this is where the supposed "long term saving" of wage bill money comes in even tho they had to offer the drivers a huge salary increase to accept DOO (i believe it was around £24k, so where is the saving?)

I would appreciate someone employed by southern to confirm or correct my understanding tho

 

[MrJeeves]

I’ve been on all 115x 700s many times and never seen a ticket check on board Thameslink once, so I’m not sure where all of you are seeing them happen.

Had them semi-regularly in summertime during my college run from Brighton northbound, particularly trying to catch people without tickets boarding at Preston Park.

 

[387star]

I thought all obs were on the same money

Conductors earn less basic but Sundays are outside

 

[AlbertBeale]

I find these days the OBS do not bother north of Gatwick due to Oyster/contactless. I have had a few checks but there always rather close from the origin station and never repeated.

In 30 trips on the Gat Express I have seen around 2 checks. Most do walk through the train but do everything but check tickets lol, again maybe because there unable to read contactless which is a joke in itself

Several times in recent months, returning from Brighton to London in the evening, the next northbound train out has been a GatEx. Each time there's been a ticket check on the (sparsely populated) train well before Gatwick. (I don't know what happens further north, since I switch at Gatwick to pick up something stopping at Clapham Junction so as to arrive in London at Waterloo [where I end short on my Brighton - St Pancras ticket].)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Had them semi-regularly in summertime during my college run from Brighton northbound, particularly trying to catch people without tickets boarding at Preston Park.

Ah, most of my journeys are north of East Croydon and most regularly Finsbury Park Stevenage, so makes a bit more sense

 

[Sussex Ben]

I’ve been on all 115x 700s many times and never seen a ticket check on board Thameslink once, so I’m not sure where all of you are seeing them happen.

My journey from Burgess Hill to London Bridge will often see a ticket check in the morning, however it's fairly common to have it checked daily for a couple of weeks then not see anyone for a few months. I assume my usual train coincides with an RPO shift start time, hence getting checks on a semi-regular basis.

I'd be going back years for the last time I had a check on a Thameslink service on the way home though...

 

[PedroHav]

I travel on the West CoastWay line regularly and agree with others that ticket checks are very far and few between. There are many stations which do not have barriers so free travel becomes the norm. The risk of getting caught is minimal and if they are then they ask for a ticket.
Equally I have never been asked for my Railcard! I wonder how many travel with a discounted ticket but do not own a Railcard .....

 

[Deepgreen]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but this seems part of a general decline in conscientiousness by staff. Now, that is far from always the case and I have encountered some excellent OBS/guard individuals recently, but my impression is that fewer and fewer challenges are made regarding improper ticketing, poor behaviour (feet on seats), etc. The huge dispute regarding guards on GTR years ago was excruciating for passengers and was supposed to allow OBSs to carry out non-train operating duties such as ticket checks more easily and effectively. The opposite seems to have happened. I have encountered many individuals who, on seeing my priv. card, are almost reluctant to sell me a ticket on the NDL, meaning I have to point out that, apart from anything else, I will need one to exit at my destination!

I also notice that ticket checks are extremely rare just where they would be most productive - e.g. north of East Croydon where people pile into the first class and are almost never challenged, even if the train isn't crowded (therefore not being hard for the OBS to get through, etc.). GTR has never recovered from its sulk about being denied permission to abolish first class and treats it with disdain. I have never had a ticket check on any of the hundreds of Thameslink workings I have used.

 

[king_walnut]

All Revenue Officers were made redundant from Southern in 2016. This was because the new franchise meant that all ticket money went to the government and not the company.

It retains a small fraud team and the rail enforcement officers, these can still issue penalty fares.

 

[YourMum666]

I’ve been on all 115x 700s many times and never seen a ticket check on board Thameslink once, so I’m not sure where all of you are seeing them happen.

There are ticket checks on fast thameslink services on the ECML (from stevenage) which i don’t understand why contactless doesn’t extend to

 

[Sussex Ben]

I also notice that ticket checks are extremely rare just where they would be most productive - e.g. north of East Croydon where people pile into the first class and are almost never challenged, even if the train isn't crowded (therefore not being hard for the OBS to get through, etc.). GTR has never recovered from its sulk about being denied permission to abolish first class and treats it with disdain. I have never had a ticket check on any of the hundreds of Thameslink workings I have used.

Indeed. Only a few weeks ago on a morning peak service we had an RPO join at Gatwick and tickets in first class were checked (I think one penalty fare was issued). Said RPO then just stood in the corner and didn’t bother checking any of the East Croydon boarders. Frustrating to say the least.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

This actually reminds me, I once went on a Southern train from Gatwick Airport to Horsham back in November 2022, and despite the barriers being fully operational in Gatwick Airport, the friendly OBS just happily sold tickets to anyone who needed them.

Side note: the same OBS told me that Southern are getting extra 377s from Southeastern soon to replace 313s. Very friendly person!

I’ve been on all 115x 700s many times and never seen a ticket check on board Thameslink once, so I’m not sure where all of you are seeing them happen.

When back at home, my local line literally uses Thameslink 700s, and like you, I've never had a ticket inspector once on every single class 700 journey I've ever made.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Has this anything to do with avoiding conflict?

For example, a lone OBS may feel uncomfortable/vulnerable if he or she comes up against a passenger who exhibits challenging behaviour and refuses to cooperate. I seem to remember "safety in numbers"

 

[Mojo]

Has this anything to do with avoiding conflict?

For example, a lone OBS may feel uncomfortable/vulnerable if he or she comes up against a passenger who exhibits challenging behaviour and refuses to cooperate. I seem to remember "safety in numbers"

But then again guards / TMs / Conductors check tickets all over the country without issue.

 

[Krokodil]

But then again guards / TMs / Conductors check tickets all over the country without issue.

It's been widely observed that checks have reduced post-covid. The decline in behaviour standards by the public during lockdown has almost certainly contributed.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

But then again guards / TMs / Conductors check tickets all over the country without issue.

Yes but they might have incentives/backup or haven't been demoted in any way. Do commercial guards earn any commission for selling tickets?

I've noticed a lot of conductors on my line are visible and generally move up and down the train, but not always checking tickets. But then the conductors role might hold more value with more pay than an OBS

 

[gimmea50anyday]

How much depends on the franchise T&Cs but yes conductors/train managers do receive commission for their sales. TPE and northern get 6% for instance, I believe XC and LNER get 5%

However since the advance of mobile ticketing apps and introduction of penalty fares the on board takings have dropped considerably. Yarm and Seamer were particularly good earners for TPE conductors as morning sales could easily hit £1000 on morning services but that has declined somewhat over the last 5 years. Now its not unusual to not take anything at all on a shift and that is one reason why the 2p per scan incentive was mooted - and introduced on northern as a trial but not on TPE as it was part of the productivity talks that collapsed at the start of the pandemic. That in itself has disincentivised staff from going through checking.tickets, 6% of nothing is still nothing.....

 

[Anvil1984]

How much depends on the franchise T&Cs but yes conductors/train managers do receive commission for their sales. TPE and northern get 6% for instance,

Just to come in here but Northern East (ex ATN depots) get only 3% where I believe Northern West (ex FNW) get 5%. (Not 100% on the west whether it is 5 or 6 as CRI has been taken off the intranet).

 

[boiledbeans2]

Indeed. Only a few weeks ago on a morning peak service we had an RPO join at Gatwick and tickets in first class were checked (I think one penalty fare was issued). Said RPO then just stood in the corner and didn’t bother checking any of the East Croydon boarders. Frustrating to say the least.

Do the RPOs have the ability to check Oyster and contactless*?

*I understand that the TfL guys just scan the contactless card, and it would be checked when they return to their base. Do GTR have at least the same functionality?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Has this anything to do with avoiding conflict?

For example, a lone OBS may feel uncomfortable/vulnerable if he or she comes up against a passenger who exhibits challenging behaviour and refuses to cooperate. I seem to remember "safety in numbers"

I'm not sure what I think of this. While it's important for one to be safe in their job, and this may mean occasionally choosing to avoid a particularly aggressive seeming passenger, if one does not feel comfortable checking tickets at all because they fear the response of those confronted, it makes you wonder why they would choose a job largely based on confrontational interactions.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I'm not sure what I think of this. While it's important for one to be safe in their job, and this may mean occasionally choosing to avoid a particularly aggressive seeming passenger, if one does not feel comfortable checking tickets at all because they fear the response of those confronted, it makes you wonder why they would choose a job largely based on confrontational interactions.

Probably because the overall value of the job is greater than than the occasional inconvenience of dealing with an aggressive passenger. Probably just easier to avoid on these few occasions

And possibly for new recruits to the role - a job's a job, any job...

 

[Sussex Ben]

Do the RPOs have the ability to check Oyster and contactless*?

*I understand that the TfL guys just scan the contactless card, and it would be checked when they return to their base. Do GTR have at least the same functionality?

Don't know, although passengers don't appear to be routinely skipped when checks take place north of Gatwick. Probably a moot point when checking first class though as there are no first class fares available on Oyster / contactless as far as I'm aware.

 

[Deepgreen]

Has this anything to do with avoiding conflict?

For example, a lone OBS may feel uncomfortable/vulnerable if he or she comes up against a passenger who exhibits challenging behaviour and refuses to cooperate. I seem to remember "safety in numbers"

Possibly, but that is part of the job role. Do we go down the route of no-one being expected to do any form of credential-checking job on their own? I think the actual number of situations that get to the point of physical aggression is very small and staff are trained to handle difficult people/situations. I feel it is all too easy to skulk in a doorway when ticket checking would not only gain revenue for no extra staffing costs but, probably more importantly, demonstrate a presence and act as a deterrent to fare evasion. If passengers perceive a decline in the risk of being caught they will evade more frequently, and so the cycle accelerates.

 

[Bartsimho]

Possibly, but that is part of the job role. Do we go down the route of no-one being expected to do any form of credential-checking job on their own? I think the actual number of situations that get to the point of physical aggression is very small and staff are trained to handle difficult people/situations. I feel it is all too easy to skulk in a doorway when ticket checking would not only gain revenue for no extra staffing costs but, probably more importantly, demonstrate a presence and act as a deterrent to fare evasion. If passengers perceive a decline in the risk of being caught they will evade more frequently, and so the cycle accelerates.

And if staff feel unsafe on the train from threat of physical violence the bodycams and a direct line to the BTP might help alleviate this.

 

[MrJeeves]

Do the RPOs have the ability to check Oyster and contactless*?

Yes, they do. They're equipped with the same standard readers that TfL use which support Oyster, contactless and ITSO. This is in addition to their phone/tablet that also checks ITSO.

 

[BJames]

I have been checked the last three times I got on at Edenbridge (main) on the services worked by Southeastern crew - about one in four times travelling to Edenbridge Town, rarely on the return to London however. I have been checked a couple of times before Oxted on the East Grinstead service. I can't remember the last time I got checked anywhere on Thameslink, it genuinely may have been never (I am not a regular user but I use it enough that I would have expected to have by now).

 

[Javelin_55]

Southern CAN run trains without an OBS on board, there are supposed to be tightly controlled limitations but wether these are followed or are being quietly slipped away I cannot say, but it wouldn't suprise me if the numbers of OBSs started declining by stealth through natural wastage and not filling vacancies.

Yes Southern can run services without OBS, on the mainline. There are limitations as you stated. Branch lines have their own separate local agreements, and I can confirm they are followed. In some places OBS are used to assist in locking up empties.

There is currently a job listing for OBS at Barnham so doesn't look like they're going anywhere.