Southern Railway much improved?

[Sad Sprinter]

For the past few summer weekends, platform 13 has been jammed with people. The station staff seemed to be concentrating on announcements solely revolving around (get this train and change at Gatwick for Brighton) because, in my observations, the crowd wasn't moving because they were waiting for a Brighton train which of course wasn't going to turn up. Maybe people have got the message now but it did show how much demand there is at CLJ for Brighton services, and for a bunch of teenage girls having a day out down there telling them to "just change at Haywards Heath" isn't exactly going to sound reassuring.

In what sense has the removal of Brighton services caused chaos? The same number of trains run to East Croydon. Surely the need to change somewhere spreads out the Brighton loads amongst other services.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

"just change at Haywards Heath"

Surprising that this is scary but changing at Clapham Junction isn't.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Surprising that this is scary but changing at Clapham Junction isn't.

Clapham Junction is far more well known that Haywards Heath, plus that's where I assume they're originating from or at least relatively nearby.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Clapham Junction is far more well known that Haywards Heath

Are East Croydon and Gatwick Airport not well known if we're going down that logic?

plus that's where I assume they're originating from or at least relatively nearby.

The clue is in the name: it is a junction. Interchanges far outweigh entries/exits.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Are East Croydon and Gatwick Airport not well known if we're going down that logic?


The clue is in the name: it is a junction. Interchanges far outweigh entries/exits.

Meh, it's how long is a piece of strong. Haywards Heath is clearly less well known than ECR and Gatwick, perhaps changing at Croydon would be the least uncomfortable option, but I think any change, particularly when Clapham Junction to Brighton has traditionally been such an established route, would be particularly daunting to someone who isn't of the ilk to feel a strong urge to tell their travelling companion Purley was once called "Caterham Junction"

The clue is in the name, but Clapham Junction is a very well known name locally the South West London in general and feels far more familiar to the average traveller than anywhere else

 

[ThameslinkUser]

perhaps changing at Croydon would be the least uncomfortable option,

Compared with a same platform change at Haywards?

I think any change, particularly when Clapham Junction to Brighton has traditionally been such an established route, would be particularly daunting to someone who isn't of the ilk to feel a strong urge to tell their travelling companion Purley was once called "Caterham Junction"

This is an absurd bit of hyperbole.

The clue is in the name, but Clapham Junction is a very well known name locally the South West London in general and feels far more familiar to the average traveller than anywhere else

And how does this make a change at Clapham Junction one that isn't daunting given the scale? I fail to follow the logic... it's sort of like changing at Clapham Jn itself really.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Compared with a same platform change at Haywards?

You overestimate people. People don't like changing trains regardless, I've given directions to plenty of people that would prefer to sit on one train for a long journey, rather than change once or twice for a quicker journey. They're certainly going to be reluctant to change at a place they're more likely they wouldn't have heard of.

This is an absurd bit of hyperbole.

A small bit of jest, of course. But my point still stands. As train enthusiasts, changing at Haywards Heath might not be a big deal, but that would be seen quite differently to a crowd of young people going to Brighton from South London.

And how does this make a change at Clapham Junction one that isn't daunting given the scale? I fail to follow the logic... it's sort of like changing at Clapham Jn itself really.

Well no, Clapham Junction's passengers are either relatively local or as you point out from a changing train from the LSWR lines, which they would assuringly (one would hope anyway) be familiar with Clapham Junction as it is at least a stop of that routing as well. My point is Haywards Heath etc is further away, less familiar and thus more daunting.

 

[WizCastro197]

For the past few summer weekends, platform 13 has been jammed with people. The station staff seemed to be concentrating on announcements solely revolving around (get this train and change at Gatwick for Brighton) because, in my observations, the crowd wasn't moving because they were waiting for a Brighton train which of course wasn't going to turn up. Maybe people have got the message now but it did show how much demand there is at CLJ for Brighton services, and for a bunch of teenage girls having a day out down there telling them to "just change at Haywards Heath" isn't exactly going to sound reassuring.

Umm, not everyone is going to Brighton though. You can’t assume all crowds of people who join a service are going to Brighton despite announcements that may only appeal to some.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Umm, not everyone is going to Brighton though. You can’t assume all crowds of people who join a service are going to Brighton despite announcements that may only appeal to some.

It's what certainly seemed to be the case, judging by the look of the crowd and how they didn't move until the announcer finally said take X train and change for Brighton.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

People don't like changing trains regardless

Unless it's Clapham Junction?

 

[PGAT]

Clapham Junction is a huge and renowned hub, while Haywards Heath is just another station along the line in the middle of Sussex. Putting stuff like same platform interchange aside (which is not easy-to-obtain information for the average person), people are more likely to travel if they can change at a familiar station

 

[ThameslinkUser]

people are more likely to travel if they can change at a familiar station

If people really were scared of interchanges then the tube would have no custom given the number of interchanges there. This is one of the most absurd points I've seen on this forum for a while.

Haywards Heath is just another station

Given the announcement by staff in post 151 was to change at Gatwick Airport, I think this point is even more moot. People know what Gatwick Airport is.

 

[blelic]

People know what Gatwick Airport is

Simply put, an unfamiliar traveller will ideally want as few changes as possible. They may assume that, as CLJ is an interchange between SWR and Southern, they would be able to get to Southern’s primary destination of Brighton from there.

This is a sensible assumption, and suddenly being told they have to change once again would deter, and perhaps confuse, some passengers. The location of the interchange would have little effect for most, although I’d imagine order of preference would be GTW->ECR->HHE.

 

[Jason48]

All 1Hs bar 2 are 8 v 12 on what used to be extremely busy on 12 cars. But of course, it's still an improvement for all, isn't it?

Well they have to shorten length of services to have stock replace recently departed 313s.

 

[PGAT]

There’s enough units for 12 cars to run in the peak, it’s to minimise mileage

 

[AzureOtsu]

In what sense has the removal of Brighton services caused chaos? The same number of trains run to East Croydon. Surely the need to change somewhere spreads out the Brighton loads amongst other services.

Just a pet peeve, but I feel far more relaxed going for a day trip to London on a 377 and not feeling like a commuter travelling on a class 700. It's gtr's largest and most established franchise and for Brighton which is branded in southern corporate colours to not get a direct southern service just rubs off as wrong to me.

It also means passengers for victoria may fork out extra for the GEX for convenience or in confusion.

 

[BJames]

Simply put, an unfamiliar traveller will ideally want as few changes as possible. They may assume that, as CLJ is an interchange between SWR and Southern, they would be able to get to Southern’s primary destination of Brighton from there.

This is a sensible assumption, and suddenly being told they have to change once again would deter, and perhaps confuse, some passengers. The location of the interchange would have little effect for most, although I’d imagine order of preference would be GTW->ECR->HHE.

I do agree with this and I know a lot of people who try and find routes on itineraries with the least amount of changes, but it is worth noting that there is the other group, which is also a sizeable amount of people I'm sure, who just plug it into Google maps and it will tell people where they need to change, and they will just unquestioningly do so (see also Trainline or any other site that people may choose to purchase their ticket from). For them, changing at ECR/GTW or even Haywards Heath is a non problem I reckon.

I was even handed on a receipt slip at London Bridge ticket office about half a year ago with a mini itinerary of how to get from London Bridge to Edenbridge Town on a Sunday (Uckfield line services start/terminate at Oxted on Sundays) - I had not asked for this and two of our group were on boundary zone 6 tickets, hence my rare use of ticket office. I haven't travelled there on a Sunday since so not sure if this was a one off from a certain ticket clerk or if this is standard practice, but it serves to show that even if you don't have a phone/haven't bought e-tickets it should be simple to direct people to the right change points.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Well they have to shorten length of services to have stock replace recently departed 313s.

Having a reason doesn't mean it is an improvement. An improvement would be replacing stock with an appropriate number of new units.

 

[yorksrob]

Well they have to shorten length of services to have stock replace recently departed 313s.

So the short forms are as a result of Government imposed cuts then.

 

[chrisp37]

I had thought the CLJ to Brighton services had gone completely but I note they seem to be there on Sundays still.

 

[PGAT]

And GX terminates at Gatwick - as it should

 

[OneOfThe48]

I was even handed on a receipt slip at London Bridge ticket office about half a year ago with a mini itinerary of how to get from London Bridge to Edenbridge Town on a Sunday (Uckfield line services start/terminate at Oxted on Sundays) - I had not asked for this and two of our group were on boundary zone 6 tickets, hence my rare use of ticket office. I haven't travelled there on a Sunday since so not sure if this was a one off from a certain ticket clerk or if this is standard practice,

I was at London Bridge’s ticket office about two weeks ago and was given a printed itinerary for my trip from London Bridge to Three Bridges. Which seemed a bit unnecessary but was nice nonetheless.

So may be the same person or local habit

 

[miklcct]

Just a pet peeve, but I feel far more relaxed going for a day trip to London on a 377 and not feeling like a commuter travelling on a class 700. It's gtr's largest and most established franchise and for Brighton which is branded in southern corporate colours to not get a direct southern service just rubs off as wrong to me.

It also means passengers for victoria may fork out extra for the GEX for convenience or in confusion.

It is not nice to stand on a crowded 12-car 377 all the way from Brighton to Clapham Junction, at least it's better standing on a 700 if I can't avoid standing on a crush-loaded train all the way from Brighton to London.

I had thought the CLJ to Brighton services had gone completely but I note they seem to be there on Sundays still.

Gatwick Express terminates at the airport on Sundays.

 

[PGAT]

Gatwick Express terminates at the airport on Sundays.

Which allows a 377 to continue on to Brighton

 

[blelic]

It is not nice to stand on a crowded 12-car 377 all the way from Brighton to Clapham Junction, at least it's better standing on a 700 if I can't avoid standing on a crush-loaded train all the way from Brighton to London.

I think generally, sitting on a 377 is far nicer than on a 700. Standing however tends to be more comfortable on a 700, as there is just so much space.

 

[Mzzzs]

The refurbishment of the 377 for me was a let down hardly noticed a change to the trains apart from those end of carriages screens which are useless.
I personally use the GX service or Thameslink over Southern now.

 

[JonathanH]

The refurbishment of the 377 for me was a let down hardly noticed a change to the trains apart from those end of carriages screens which are useless.

What were you expecting? Southern's brand hasn't changed. The interiors are still in line with modern standards.

 

[Mzzzs]

What were you expecting? Southern's brand hasn't changed. The interiors are still in line with modern standards.

Was expecting the train to look cleaner than before but I could not see that on any refurbished units.
I doubt many people even notice Southern refurbished units.

 

[PGAT]

Maybe on the outside, but it's hard to miss the changes in the interior. You have the bold dot-matrix, new screens and clearer announcements. Even if you aren't savvy and none of that matters or takes your notice, the plug sockets will.

 

[GatwickDepress]

The refurbishment of the 377 for me was a let down hardly noticed a change to the trains apart from those end of carriages screens which are useless.
I personally use the GX service or Thameslink over Southern now.

A lot of it is under the hood, I believe - compatibility between different subclasses and the like?

The power sockets are welcome, but the end of carriage screens aren't terribly useful. I think they've only displayed the same few Southern advertisements since installed. Be nice if they displayed realtime information for the tube like the 700s.