Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

[winks]

Sorry I know it’s been mentioned but when is the revised timetable uploaded into planners ? I know it’s imminent …

 

[MrJeeves]

Sorry I know it’s been mentioned but when is the revised timetable uploaded into planners ? I know it’s imminent …

Almost two weeks ago...

Times are now on RTT, with the SWR stopping service retimed.

 

[winks]

Oh OK, thanks

EDIT: Southern are stating on their website that it’s 11th March for the upload of the new timetable.

https://www.southernrailway.com/about-us/our-commitments/west-coastway-timetable-changes

 

[OneOfThe48]

EDIT: Southern are stating on their website that it’s 11th March for the upload of the new timetable.

I assume they mean the ‘official’ National Rail Enquiries rather than real time trains or the Trainline

 

[winks]

I see that the last train out of Brighton to Havant is now 2240 come June ‘24. (shame it doesn’t extend into Portsmouth) but at least passengers should in theory be able to get a connecting SWR service.

The current last train on weekends is 2200 so a 40 min improvement.

 

[chr]

Post #218 explained what will happen:
“Southern will pull out of St Denys, Bitterne, Sholing, Hamble and Bursledon completely”. Netley gets two calls per day towards Southampton only.

But when I checked on RTT a couple of weeks ago most of those stations will get extra peak calls from SWR at a similar time of day, so short distance travel into Southampton should not be affected. There’s an SWR all stations that starts from Fareham P2 at 0751, which is extra compared to the standard hourly pattern.

St Denys does seem to loose out on balance in terms of evening departures due to the loss of the Southern trains. However, the one positive for St Denys is the standard 2 departures to Southampton Central are now separated by 9 minutes instead of by 1 minute. I think it's a shame Southern couldn't have added St Denys to some of the Brighton services, as the station is convenient for a lot of students who would probably want to be travelling to Brighton, and Woolston > St Denys > Central is much more useful locally than Woolston > Central.

 

[evergreenadam]

St Denys does seem to loose out on balance in terms of evening departures due to the loss of the Southern trains. However, the one positive for St Denys is the standard 2 departures to Southampton Central are now separated by 9 minutes instead of by 1 minute. I think it's a shame Southern couldn't have added St Denys to some of the Brighton services, as the station is convenient for a lot of students who would probably want to be travelling to Brighton, and Woolston > St Denys > Central is much more useful locally than Woolston > Central.

Have often thought that the suburban Southampton stations near where the students live have untapped demand.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Have often thought that the suburban Southampton stations near where the students live have untapped demand.

St Denys is more convenient for me to use, but it's sparse service means the majority of time I go to Central and almost always buy tickets from Central and only using St Denys if a beneficial connection is available.

I do wonder how much usage is surpressed by a combination of the limited services and potentially lack of ticket sales because of unbarriered stations on the Romsey rocket route.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Have often thought that the suburban Southampton stations near where the students live have untapped demand.

I suppose maybe southern could keep that under passive review, and perhaps they could add some calls to those stations again someday if demand was ever to increase (maybe if a major housing development came up or something along those lines that bumped up the usage). In general, I think with Southampton's suburban stations, they just don't seem to be treated by SWR in the way southern treat their south coast suburban stations such as Aldrington, Fishersgate and East worthing further on the west coastway, which all had half-hourly services before the pandemic (although Aldrington and Fishersgate don't get that return because of the changes made to the original plan, although east worthing will remain at half-hourly), or the suburban stations east of Brighton like London Road and Moulsecoomb (albeit, that has a university nearby which contributes to its usage in part). I reckon the best way to increase their frequency in the long term both at peak times and off-peak times would be for SWR to introduce the extra Portsmouth to Southampton services they promised when they won their contract from SWT in 2017, and have not delivered, which they might be enticed to do under a DfT not under the control of Tories who want services cut to save money with a pompus argument that usage is down, not realising one of the reasons for this is the poor service post-covid putting some people off travelling by train in the first place.

I assume they mean the ‘official’ National Rail Enquiries rather than real time trains or the Trainline

On a completely unrelated note, when is this meant to come out? Because I checked southern's website, and it still shows the December 2023 timetable changes. Will it be shown on a very specific website.

 

[ollie_hunt1660]

I suppose maybe southern could keep that under passive review, and perhaps they could add some calls to those stations again someday if demand was ever to increase (maybe if a major housing development came up or something along those lines that bumped up the usage). In general, I think with Southampton's suburban stations, they just don't seem to be treated by SWR in the way southern treat their south coast suburban stations such as Aldrington, Fishersgate and East worthing further on the west coastway, which all had half-hourly services before the pandemic (although Aldrington and Fishersgate don't get that return because of the changes made to the original plan, although east worthing will remain at half-hourly), or the suburban stations east of Brighton like London Road and Moulsecoomb (albeit, that has a university nearby which contributes to its usage in part). I reckon the best way to increase their frequency in the long term both at peak times and off-peak times would be for SWR to introduce the extra Portsmouth to Southampton services they promised when they won their contract from SWT in 2017, and have not delivered, which they might be enticed to do under a DfT not under the control of Tories who want services cut to save money with a pompus argument that usage is down, not realising one of the reasons for this is the poor service post-covid putting some people off travelling by train in the first place.

On a completely unrelated note, when is this meant to come out? Because I checked southern's website, and it still shows the December 2023 timetable changes. Will it be shown on a very specific website.

St Denys has the University of Southampton nearby

 

[swt_passenger]

I reckon the best way to increase their frequency in the long term both at peak times and off-peak times would be for SWR to introduce the extra Portsmouth to Southampton services they promised when they won their contract from SWT in 2017… […]

The planned additional SWR service would have been a very limited stop service, and I suspect there is no longer a path available for it when combined with the latest SN 2 tph timings, especially if still leaving room for the GWR service. The Netley Line has only 2 aspect signalling and long block sections, overall capacity is poor..

In the initial 2018 consultation timetables the new Weymouth to Portsmouth incorporated the all stations stopper, and the additional Southampton to Portsmouth SWR service would only called at St Denys and Swanwick then all stations from Fareham, with just a few extra early and late calls at Woolston and Netley. By 2020 it had become a Bournemouth to Portsmouth, but I don’t think a timetable was ever put online. I doubt it will ever be introduced following the SN changes.

 

[ollie_hunt1660]

The planned additional SWR service would have been a very limited stop service, and I suspect there is no longer a path available for it when combined with the latest SN 2 tph timings, especially if still leaving room for the GWR service. The Netley Line has only 2 aspect signalling and long block sections, overall capacity is poor..

In the initial 2018 consultation timetables the new Weymouth to Portsmouth incorporated the all stations stopper, and the additional Southampton to Portsmouth SWR service would only called at St Denys and Swanwick then all stations from Fareham, with just a few extra early and late calls at Woolston and Netley. By 2020 it had become a Bournemouth to Portsmouth, but I don’t think a timetable was ever put online. I doubt it will ever be introduced following the SN changes.

Indeed, although people protested about Netley and Woolston not getting extra stops and it was altered to that those two stations were included in the new SWR semifast service

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

St Denys has the University of Southampton nearby

True, but I suspect more use Southampton Airport Parkway (as I remember a student saying to me at some point on an open day) or Southampton Central. Then again, which station a student uses depends on the subject a student is taking, because the campuses are more spread out than some other universities like University of Sussex, where nearly all students use Falmer station.

The planned additional SWR service would have been a very limited stop service, and I suspect there is no longer a path available for it when combined with the latest SN 2 tph timings, especially if still leaving room for the GWR service. The Netley Line has only 2 aspect signalling and long block sections, overall capacity is poor..

In the initial 2018 consultation timetables the new Weymouth to Portsmouth incorporated the all stations stopper, and the additional Southampton to Portsmouth SWR service would only called at St Denys and Swanwick then all stations from Fareham, with just a few extra early and late calls at Woolston and Netley. By 2020 it had become a Bournemouth to Portsmouth, but I don’t think a timetable was ever put online. I doubt it will ever be introduced following the SN changes.

That is a fair point, although maybe in another timetable change that could be reviewed as to how to path 1 additional train on the section, but quite radical changes would likely be needed for southern, which I doubt they would be keen on after years of developing a new timetable (because a report published in 2020 bears some resemblance, such as running trains via Littlehampton in the first place). Whether any changes could happen depend on whether southern's services are successful overall, and maybe then network rail might think about upgrading the line to increase capacity, and in turn the number of trains that could run over the section. In general, the layout at Southampton just makes it harder to path trains through compared to other places like Portsmouth on its own branchline, and Brighton where coastway trains don't have to share with the Brighton mainline, because in the case of southampton, (the mainline and both of the coastway lines) are generally segregated at Brighton (other than at platform 3, but that's quite rare) it has to share track with the SW mainline, reducing paths available into southampton itself.

 

[leytongabriel]

Have often thought that the suburban Southampton stations near where the students live have untapped demand.

Have often thought that the suburban Southampton stations near where the students live have untapped demand.

But doesn't Soton Uni run bus services?

 

[swt_passenger]

But doesn't Soton Uni run bus services?

Unilink. I think geographic coverage around the necessary sites especially the General Hospital, is far better than the train could ever be.:

Unilink bus travel was created in 2001 to transport Southampton University staff and students between teaching sites and halls of residence, whilst also providing a bus service that is open for everyone to use.

Since the Unilink bus service launch, the network has grown significantly. Our bus travel services have become some of the most popular in Southampton. Unilink bus services has continued to grow year-on-year since 2001.

We believe in investing in new buses regularly, to keep up with the latest technology available. In August 2018 we introduced 32 brand new British built ADL Enviro 400MMC buses, all with Euro 6 engines helping Southampton meet its air quality targets.

https://images-unilink.passenger-website.com/2023-09/Unilink_Network-Map_2023_MASTER.pdf

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Unilink. I think geographic coverage around the necessary sites especially the General Hospital, is far better than the train could ever be.:

https://images-unilink.passenger-website.com/2023-09/Unilink_Network-Map_2023_MASTER.pdf

On the topic of bus services, what are they like around Woolston station, because they must be good if southern are going to upgrade the service, but I'm not familiar with southampton buses.

 

[swt_passenger]

On the topic of bus services, what are they like around Woolston station, because they must be good if southern are going to upgrade the service, but I'm not familiar with southampton buses.

Southern’s original consultation quoted in post #1 definitely mentions the potential for interchange with the bus service from Woolston.

The Itchen bridge is right outside the station, and a number of bus routes from the wider area to the south and east of Woolston converge there for the short leap over the River Itchen directly towards the south end of the City Centre, and that will be a fairly high combined frequency. I don’t know any details though, on the few occasions I travel into Southampton by road I usually head in over Northam Bridge, past Bitterne station, or through Swaythling.

But I‘m sure they’re right that it will be quicker to certain parts of the City than doubling back from Southampton Central station.

 

[chr]

Southern’s original consultation quoted in post #1 definitely mentions the potential for interchange with the bus service from Woolston.

The Itchen bridge is right outside the station, and a number of bus routes from the wider area to the south and east of Woolston converge there for the short leap over the River Itchen directly towards the south end of the City Centre, and that will be a fairly high combined frequency. I don’t know any details though, on the few occasions I travel into Southampton by road I usually head in over Northam Bridge, past Bitterne station, or through Swaythling.

But I‘m sure they’re right that it will be quicker to certain parts of the City than doubling back from Southampton Central station.

On the topic of bus services, what are they like around Woolston station, because they must be good if southern are going to upgrade the service, but I'm not familiar with southampton buses.

9 buses crossing the Itchen Bridge westbound from southern Woolston in the next hour, which is still semi-peak time but in general there's good connectivity between Woolston and the centre of town by bus. If you're heading for the east of the centre e.g. Ocean Village / Oxford Street, you'd get there faster walking than if you stayed on the train.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

9 buses crossing the Itchen Bridge westbound from southern Woolston in the next hour, which is still semi-peak time but in general there's good connectivity between Woolston and the centre of town by bus. If you're heading for the east of the centre e.g. Ocean Village / Oxford Street, you'd get there faster walking than if you stayed on the train.

Thank you, I had basically only heard about it, wasn't sure how frequent it was though. To be fair, I can see myself sometimes getting out there for the bus if I can think of something to do in the east of southampton (just like I sometimes getting out at Portsmouth & Southsea instead of Portsmouth Harbour if I can think of something to do in the city centre before going down to Gunwharf quays on foot, or even by train if I'm I can't be bothered). I can imagine that the usage of Woolston is likely to greatly increase, and I can imagine more buses coming in the future if it proves popular. The main thing that southern does need to do though is modify sunday services to include a call at Woolston on their singular southampton service (and at Portchester and Southbourne at the same time, which also lack services to southampton operated by southern on sunday), because it will make no sense to have a great alternative route into Southampton Monday to Saturday, but have to travel back to the past and double back at Southampton Central on Sunday, which will put journey times for unneccessary reasons.

 

[OneOfThe48]

On the topic of bus services, what are they like around Woolston station, because they must be good if southern are going to upgrade the service, but I'm not familiar with southampton buses.

The Sholing-Woolston area itself is pretty built up so even if the bus connections are not as good as Southern imagine, I think the extra stops are still worth it and will be more convenient for a lot of customers.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

The Sholing-Woolston area itself is pretty built up so even if the bus connections are not as good as Southern imagine, I think the extra stops are still worth it and will be more convenient for a lot of customers.

Good point.

The reality is that the present is running needlessly non-stop through countless suburbs, which even London trains don't do with their calls at Clapham Junction and East Croydon, which offer good connections for frequent metro services, not hourly stopping services which is the only choice for many stations.

It's fair enough to run ultra-fast if it has a very long way to go (say if they ran London Waterloo via Guildford services from there), but not for what is already primarily a regional service, making a few calls in the suburbs appropriate.

Just look at Brighton/Worthing for example, where nearly all their suburban stations (other than Aldrington and Fishersgate and East worthing to a lesser extent) have a frequent service of at least 3-4 tph.

The problem with Southampton in part though is that are too many that are too close together, where for example, Sholing and Woolson are only about a 15 minute walk from each other, and currently, with no station having a superior service, it splits passengers, creating two underused stations that most trains don't call at on those grounds, whereas if the planners in the 1840s had known better, they would have had one station in the middle of where Woolston and Sholing actually are that would have perhaps roughly the same number of passengers of Woolston and Sholing put together, which would have created a busier station that more trains would call at.

Hamble and Netley are also not that far from each other, and could have maybe shared a station.

It's just good Dr Beeching didn't shut those stations to be fair.

Moderator note: Speculative discussion split to:

How to increase capacity of the West Coastway line, including merging merging Sholing & Woolston stations?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southern-timetable-changes-consultation-coastway-west.252975/page-11#post-6706876 The Sholing-Woolston area itself is pretty built up so even if the bus connections are not as good as Southern imagine, I think the extra stops are...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[LudwigTails]

i keep seeing the new service pattern on the west coastway and i am just confused why is there 2 lines of brighton and southampton and getting rid of the Southampton to london trains (as if the original route is already long as it is) ?

 

[TrainBoy98]

i keep seeing the new service pattern on the west coastway and i am just confused why is there 2 lines of brighton and southampton and getting rid of the Southampton to london trains (as if the original route is already long as it is) ?

Better connectivity across the Coastway, and with a same-platform interchange at Barnham for Gatwick/London. Imo it's a win

 

[OneOfThe48]

i keep seeing the new service pattern on the west coastway and i am just confused why is there 2 lines of brighton and southampton and getting rid of the Southampton to london trains (as if the original route is already long as it is) ?

Southern explained their thinking behind this change on their website page for the changes: www.southernrailway.com/westcoastway

You might find their summary document interesting

 

[swt_passenger]

i keep seeing the new service pattern on the west coastway and i am just confused why is there 2 lines of brighton and southampton and getting rid of the Southampton to london trains (as if the original route is already long as it is) ?

Services at Southampton and Portsmouth will be a standard half an hour apart, instead of 15/45 mins and there’ll be more reliable turnarounds. It was explained in post #1 of this thread, which is a quote from SN’s original consultation. I noted that the main stations towards Southampton will have a much better spread of fast services around the hour, at the moment they all run in a group in a short 15 min period.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

That is absolutely right about the uneven spacing. This is as of 28 March 2024 (on a typical weekday off-peak period), and there is only a 13 minute wait between services. Within the 47 minute gap, there is no realistic possibility of coastway services other than to Portsmouth, and nothing east of Portsmouth, because the only service along the coastway is a slow service between Southampton and Portsmouth, and having looked at trainline before on a day out to Southampton a few months ago, you simply cannot get the Southampton to Portsmouth service AND make it more worthwhile in terms of time than just waiting for the next southern service (or the GWR service, but that makes absolutely no difference because you'll end up catching a southern service 3 minutes behind it anyway). More evenly spacing services can allow shorter waiting times than if you have just missed the Brighton train, and I was really worried on than day in January, because I only got the Brighton train 2 minutes before departure because I was carrying a heavy shopping bag, and my regular rucksack containing my laptop, and is also very heavy, and me failing to get that train would have delayed my arrival back into Chichester (where I often get the bus to Bognor Regis, because I don't like walking home in the dark, and the 700 bus gets me closer to my house, and saves a bit of time than getting the bus from Bognor Regis station) by around 45 minutes, knowing there was no alternative. A train every 30 minutes should solve this problem overall. On balance, even though there will no longer be a service to London Victoria, the change is good for Southampton in terms of coastway services. Its just a pity they are not on Sunday.

 

[Bikeman78]

The track access changes application is now on the Network rail website. As well as form P the relevant appendices are available to download including the business plan and performance modelling.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/30.01.2024%20-%20Govia%20Thameslink%20Railway%20Ltd%20-%20Section%2022%20-%2060th%20SA%20-%20Closes%2026.02.2024/Form%20P%20-%20GTR%2060th%20SA.pdf

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/30.01.2024%20-%20Govia%20Thameslink%20Railway%20Ltd%20-%20Section%2022%20-%2060th%20SA%20-%20Closes%2026.02.2024/Appendix%20A%20West%20Coastway%20business%20case%20-%20v3.pdf

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Current%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/30.01.2024%20-%20Govia%20Thameslink%20Railway%20Ltd%20-%20Section%2022%20-%2060th%20SA%20-%20Closes%2026.02.2024/Appendix%20E%20Performance%20modelling%20and%20interventions.pdf

View attachment 151462

I have just noticed that Brighton to Chichester and Barnham to Bognor Regis will be standard class only whilst everything else will have first class. Sounds like a recipe for confusion.

 

[Kite159]

I have just noticed that Brighton to Chichester and Barnham to Bognor Regis will be standard class only whilst everything else will have first class. Sounds like a recipe for confusion.

Definitely there, unless Southern are trying to follow South Eastern/London Northwestern and ditching 1st class to allow them to spin a "extra 20 seats per train available" and haven't announced it officially yet

 

[OscarH]

Definitely there, unless Southern are trying to follow South Eastern/London Northwestern and ditching 1st class to allow them to spin a "extra 20 seats per train available" and haven't announced it officially yet

This was long the case due to the 313s anyway, so it's not new confusion. Do the 377/3s not have first? That would explain it I think

 

[Kite159]

This was long the case due to the 313s anyway, so it's not new confusion. Do the 377/3s not have first? That would explain it I think

The 377/3s have first class available