Specified train & connections meaning

[Helen44]

I have recently travelled on an Advance ticket from London KX to Skipton. The first portion from Lon to Leeds was a specified train at 12:03, but there was no specified train for the leg from Leeds to Skipton.

When I arrived in Leeds at 14:16, the first train to Skipton was leaving from the opposite platform at 14:18. I hopped on quickly, but when the ticket inspector checked my ticket, I was told that because there hadn’t been 10 minutes between my train arriving and this one departing, then my ticket was invalid and I’d have to pay. To make matters worse, I was not allowed to use my railcard to by the new ticket, so I’d have to pay full price…

Can anyone tell me where I can find something in writing that states I shouldn’t have boarded the 14:18 or supports the fact that I accidentally invalidated my ticket? I’ve read the ticket a number of times and as far as I can see it was a legal move…

I travel the route quite frequently, and have made that connection roughly 50% of the time and never been in trouble before. Is this a new rule?

 

[leezer3]

The inspector is making it up as he goes along....

Complain to the company (Northern?) in question.

 

[jfollows]

It sounds as if the inspector is confusing different things.

If your ticket to Skipton did specify a train from Leeds to Skipton, the departure time of this train would have to be at least ten minutes after the advertised arrival time of the train from London, this is true.

But if you don't have to take a specific train, you are completely entitled to do what you did and take an earlier connecting train.

However you need to be careful that you did not have some kind of itinerary along with your advance ticket, which might say "travel on specified trains only", in which case the inspector would have been right. There has been a shift towards this kind of thing more recently, so you should read all the documentation issued alongside your advance ticket to be sure.

If there's no such thing, and no stipulation on which train to use from Leeds to Skipton, then what you did was fine and you should apply for a refund of the extra money you had to pay.

 

[xotGD]

In my experience, Advances between Airedale stations and London include a specific service for the local connecting leg. A real pain if you have to watch a train depart because it is an unofficial <10 minute connecting and so can't be offered as a fixed itinerary. Sometimes asking the guard does the trick, however. That's if you've got time.

Never just jump on, hoping for the best.

 

[Haywain]

Can anyone tell me where I can find something in writing that states I shouldn’t have boarded the 14:18 or supports the fact that I accidentally invalidated my ticket? I’ve read the ticket a number of times and as far as I can see it was a legal move…

Did you buy it online? If so, could you post you booking confirmation email here, with your personal details redacted. We may then be able to say whether or not you were right to board that train.

 

[Helen44]

Thanks for the input

I think I’ve deleted the original booking email, but this is what I see in the app.

When I look up the fare code GC, the rules say I need to travel on the booked LNER train and then “required connections”

 

[JonathanH]

When I look up the fare code GC, the rules say I need to travel on the booked LNER train and then “required connections”

The "required connection" will have likely been the 1426 to Skipton, not the 1418 and, as all Northern services are now marked as reservable, the ticket should have shown this service as having a counted place reservation.

The first portion from Lon to Leeds was a specified train at 12:03, but there was no specified train for the leg from Leeds to Skipton.

Was this an paper ticket, and therefore a single ticket with just the one reservation, or an e-ticket with a stated itinerary?

 

[FaresGuru22]

I find it hard to believe that there was "no specified train". You bought an advance ticket that says 'Only valid on booked London North Eastern Railway services and required connecting services.' and the itinerary would've been the 12.03 and the 14.26 - you boarded a train at 14.18 instead and invalidated your ticket, as advance tickets are valid only for the trains that you selected, unless there is disruption.

It doesn't matter whether it was a paper ticket or an eTicket, or what was stated on it. These terms and conditions would've been presented and accepted upon purchasing the ticket. Unless they weren't? In which case, you have a case.

Having just seen the screenshot posted above, you were indeed presented the T&Cs. The word 'booked' applies both to the LNER train and the required connecting train. It even states 'valid on selected train only' - it should of course be pluralised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find it hard to believe that there was "no specified train". You bought an advance ticket that says 'Only valid on booked London North Eastern Railway services and required connecting services.' and the itinerary would've been the 12.03 and the 14.26 - you boarded a train at 14.18 instead and invalidated your ticket, as advance tickets are valid only for the trains that you selected, unless there is disruption.

It doesn't matter whether it was a paper ticket or an eTicket, or what was stated on it. These terms and conditions would've been presented and accepted upon purchasing the ticket. Unless they weren't? In which case, you have a case.

This is incorrect for &connections tickets unless they include a reservation for the connecting leg (which it probably did here as Northern mark almost all their services reservable). If booked on a non reservable service, what you effectively have is an Anytime Day Single for that leg but with a break of journey bar.

To avoid arguments, if taking advantage of this it's best to use a paper ticket, as nowhere on that ticket will the service be printed.

 

[Adam Williams]

I find it hard to believe that there was "no specified train". You bought an advance ticket that says 'Only valid on booked London North Eastern Railway services and required connecting services.' and the itinerary would've been the 12.03 and the 14.26 - you boarded a train at 14.18 instead and invalidated your ticket, as advance tickets are valid only for the trains that you selected, unless there is disruption.

I disagree with this interpretation. They must be used on the trains you have reservations for. That's not the same as what appears on the itinerary at all - it will be in some cases, and won't in others. Customers opting for ToD obviously won't get a coupon printed for unreserved legs.

 

[FaresGuru22]

It's not an interpretation - advance tickets are valid only on the trains you selected. If any leg was on a non-reservable train, you should never risk jumping on a different train, you will likely be charged. If you can't break your journey, again that isn't defined as well as it should be cross industry, so if you can't leave the station premises or exit ticket gates (or delay yourself at the interchange, though not clear enough), why would you be on a different train? If you're on a different train, you've either boarded an earlier train despite minimum connection times, or you've broken your journey.

This nonsense about non-reservable legs being open to interpretation is a continuation of legacy ticketing which the current T&Cs make no allowance for.

 

[Adam Williams]

It's not an interpretation - advance tickets are valid only on the trains you selected. If any leg was on a non-reservable train, you should never risk jumping on a different train, you will likely be charged. If you can't break your journey, again that isn't defined as well as it should be cross industry, so if you can't leave the station premises or exit ticket gates (or delay yourself at the interchange, though not clear enough), why would you be on a different train? If you're on a different train, you've either boarded an earlier train despite minimum connection times, or you've broken your journey.

This nonsense about non-reservable legs being open to interpretation is a continuation of legacy ticketing which the current T&Cs make no allowance for.

If a customer requests ToD fulfilment, what information exactly is the member of staff on the train going to use to decide they're not following their "selected itinerary" and charge the customer? The customer is under no requirement to carry around an itinerary with them.

There's also an argument based on the letter of RSPS3030 that legs without a reservation shouldn't even end up on the E-Ticket at all, so I'm not convinced this is simply a case of being connected to "legacy ticketing", as you make out.

 

[alistairlees]

It's not an interpretation - advance tickets are valid only on the trains you selected.

This is complete rubish. Advance tickets are only valid on the services for which you have a reservation. Where there is a leg for which you do not have a reservation, then they are valid on any service on that leg, providing other restrictions (such as TOC) are adhered to.

In the days when most local services were not 'reservable', then this worked well for both customers and staff - you could travel on an earlier (or later) connection without being concerned about validity. This made sense - the yield management was about the inter-city leg really, and not about the local leg at either end. So, if your inter-city leg was early, or it made an unofficial connection, then the customer could benefit by getting home (or to heir destination) earlier, rather than having to pointlessly wait. And, if the customer wanted to allow a bit more time for a connection from the local train to the inter-city train, then they could.

In the last 10 years or so, though, local TOCs have made almost every local train reservable. This is so that they can (partly) play in the yield management game. It's been incredibly confusing for customers though (trains don't actually have reserved seats; fines for getting on the wrong train by 10 or 15 minutes; 10p cheaper for total loss of flexibility), as well as revenue-eroding (fares at £1.60 instead of £5.30) and causing staff / customer conflict.

Local faux-'reservable' trains are not helping customers.

 

[FaresGuru22]

What do the T&Cs state? If either the ticket T&Cs or the ticket itself (including info presented upon purchase) states anything along the lines of 'booked train only', then it is quite clear.

Policing it is a different matter. Given the statement around paper tickets being easier to do this than tickets which print the itinerary, it's clear that people are confusing validity with 'being unable to prove invalid' when on the train. If you won't do it with an eTicket, don't do it with any ticket.

 

[Adam Williams]

What do the T&Cs state? If either the ticket T&Cs or the ticket itself (including info presented upon purchase) states anything along the lines of 'booked train only', then it is quite clear.

The Ts and Cs that a retailer must display to the customer don't suggest that the ticket is only valid on the selected connecting services prior to purchase at all, no. At least, not for the intercity operator I checked. The route code description in IDMS does imply that it is only valid on a booked main TOC service, which I do not dispute. Besides that, it refers merely to connecting services required to complete a journey.

In any case: I am inclined to trust alistairlees on this, he's been doing this a hell of a lot longer than I have and usually has pretty insightful views on fares and ticketing policy

 

[Helen44]

Thanks for this.

The ticket said “no specified seat” from Leeds to Skipton, which I (possibly erroneously?) believed meant that I did not have a reservation on a specified train. Even when I reread this multiple times, I didn’t interpret it as having to ride a specified train. Can they really claim you’ve reserved a train if there is the possibility that you’ll be crammed into the vestibule end?

I feel like “Booked LNER train” is very clear about which service I have to use, but “required connection services” is ambiguous. I required a connecting service to get to Skipton, so I boarded a connecting service. This is not plain English for consumers and I didn’t feel like I was “chancing it” or “hoping for the best”. I genuinely believed I was following the T&C.

Part of my issue here is that the guard didn’t tell me “you haven’t boarded the train on your itinerary”; he told me “you’ve boarded a train that arrived less than 10 minutes after the train from London arrived. I’m going to be more cautious about checking reservations in future, but only cause I came here to ask the question. If I’d listened to the guard, I’d be none the wiser.

 

[Adam Williams]

The ticket said “no specified seat” from Leeds to Skipton, which I (possibly erroneously?) believed meant that I did not have a reservation on a specified train

In this instance, yes, I think you'll have had a ("no place" or "counted place") reservation, rather than no reservation at all. It is confusing, I appreciate.

 

[jamiearmley]

I think if you want an cast iron answer to this particular journey, you are going to have to dig into your 'deleted items' folder.....

 

[Amaranthe]

Just looked at this for Monday and it shows the connection as the 1426 ex Leeds and also states "You have a reservation for this journey, but we're unable to reserve you a specific seat."

 

[Helen44]

Thanks for the investigation. It also says “Seat Reservations are possible” when that’s a downright lie. It’s not possible to reserve seats on that train at all.

i had got an “itinerary” when I booked the train, but at the time I didn’t consider those trains to be specified because of the things mentioned above. When travelling, all I could see on the ticket was “no specified seat” and under the Reservations heading it says “no reserved seat”, rather than “you have a reservation but…”

 

[yorkie]

It's not an interpretation - advance tickets are valid only on the trains you selected. If any leg was on a non-reservable train, you should never risk jumping on a different train, you will likely be charged. If you can't break your journey, again that isn't defined as well as it should be cross industry, so if you can't leave the station premises or exit ticket gates (or delay yourself at the interchange, though not clear enough), why would you be on a different train? If you're on a different train, you've either boarded an earlier train despite minimum connection times, or you've broken your journey.

This nonsense about non-reservable legs being open to interpretation is a continuation of legacy ticketing which the current T&Cs make no allowance for.

Why does it make any sense to say that a passenger travelling from London to Skipton must only travel on a specific local service from Leeds to Skipton?

Given a customer travelling from Bristol to Stevenage can jump on any train between London and Stevenage, why not apply the same principle for London to Skipton?

Talking of "legacy ticketing", the "legacy" rules were absolutely fine and made sense, as it enabled the customer to simply board the first train.

I guess that's what newer ticketing is all about: restricting passengers, threatening passengers, and generally trying to deter people from travelling by train.

Thanks for this.

The ticket said “no specified seat” from Leeds to Skipton, which I (possibly erroneously?) believed meant that I did not have a reservation on a specified train. Even when I reread this multiple times, I didn’t interpret it as having to ride a specified train. Can they really claim you’ve reserved a train if there is the possibility that you’ll be crammed into the vestibule end?

Train companies such as Northern are keen to maximise revenue, threaten passengers with new tickets or penalty fares, and that is more important than giving a good experience.

Train companies are unlike anything else in any other industry.

The Guard was technically correct, as you did have a (counted place) reservation. However, the rule makes no logical sense, but unfortunately some Guards do not apply common sense. It's a rotten attitude that comes from the top of the company. That said, many Northern Guards do apply common sense, so I'd say you were unlucky.

By the way, next time consider booking with us instead; companies like Northern and LNER don't particularly want your custom, and they often charge a premium for longer distance fares. Our site looks for cheaper combinations of tickets, and passes on the vast majority of any savings identified.

 

[xotGD]

Local faux-'reservable' trains are not helping customers.

They help those of us who get to save several pounds on our commute to Leeds by being able to buy cheap Advances.

But as I said upthread, being locked into a specific Airedale service when you have an Advance to or from London is a pain.

 

[Helen44]

I don’t feel that the Guard was correct, because they didn’t tell me I had a reservation on a specific train. What the guard told me was that my mistake was getting on a train which departed less than 10 mins after my last train arrived. He said I could get on any train back to Skipton as long as it was at least 10 mins later.

If they’d told me that I had a reservation on the other train, and talked me through the fact that I had a reservation even though I had no seat; I’d have been more knowledgeable about the situation and would know I needed to make it to the 14:26.

Why does it make any sense to say that a passenger travelling from London to Skipton must only travel on a specific local service from Leeds to Skipton?

Given a customer travelling from Bristol to Stevenage can jump on any train between London and Stevenage, why not apply the same principle for London to Skipton?

Talking of "legacy ticketing", the "legacy" rules were absolutely fine and made sense, as it enabled the customer to simply board the first train.

I guess that's what newer ticketing is all about: restricting passengers, threatening passengers, and generally trying to deter people from travelling by train.


Train companies such as Northern are keen to maximise revenue, threaten passengers with new tickets or penalty fares, and that is more important than giving a good experience.

Train companies are unlike anything else in any other industry.

The Guard was technically correct, as you did have a (counted place) reservation. However, the rule makes no logical sense, but unfortunately some Guards do not apply common sense. It's a rotten attitude that comes from the top of the company. That said, many Northern Guards do apply common sense, so I'd say you were unlucky.

By the way, next time consider booking with us instead; companies like Northern and LNER don't particularly want your custom, and they often charge a premium for longer distance fares. Our site looks for cheaper combinations of tickets, and passes on the vast majority of any savings identified.

If they’d told me that I had a reservation on the other train, and talked me through the fact that I had a reservation even though I had no seat; I’d have been more knowledgeable about the situation and would know I needed to make it to the 14:26.

 

[30907]

Having just seen the screenshot posted above, you were indeed presented the T&Cs. The word 'booked' applies both to the LNER train and the required connecting train. It even states 'valid on selected train only' - it should of course be pluralised.

But it isn't, leaving the situatin unclear.

If you can't break your journey, again that isn't defined as well as it should be cross industry, so if you can't leave the station premises or exit ticket gates (or delay yourself at the interchange, though not clear enough),

None of which is defined (or not to your satisfaction)

why would you be on a different train? If you're on a different train, you've either boarded an earlier train despite minimum connection times, or you've broken your journey.

Or there is a sensible policy such as TL adopt.

This nonsense about non-reservable legs being open to interpretation is a continuation of legacy ticketing which the current T&Cs make no allowance for.

The rules around Advance tickets date from the "fares reform" around 2008 which established the present national fares structure. I would take "legacy ticketing" to mean something that dates from before privatisation, not something current.

The change that has caused the issue is that TOCs have increased the number of reservable trains for their own purposes, with a spinoff (intended or not) for through passengers.

 

[yorkie]

I don’t feel that the Guard was correct, because they didn’t tell me I had a reservation on a specific train. What the guard told me was that my mistake was getting on a train which departed less than 10 mins after my last train arrived. He said I could get on any train back to Skipton as long as it was at least 10 mins later.

Yes you are right about that; the Guard was talking nonsense there.

Sadly Northern do not have appropriate safeguards in place to ensure that their employees are fit and proper for interacting with customers; nor do they offer adequate training regarding ticketing matters.

Sadly, the company appears to adopt a policy of encouraging penalising customers over applying discretion and common sense.

Northern's training in the area of ticketing is inadequate and even where they do train staff on specific issues, the training can be incorrect; Northern brazenly instruct staff to act wrongly in their revenue handbook, such as erroneously stating that Penalty Fares apply in circumstances which they do not.

While most Northern Guards are friendly and pragmatic, despite the failings of the company, deep - rooted cultural problems at Northern mean that every day there will no doubt be many customers who are misadvised and wrongly penalised. I see it, and hear of it, regularly.

Hopefully one day there will be some sort of legal action against Northern. If Northern think they are immune, they need to think again, as GTR are in big trouble for wrongly charging customers.

However the only prospect of getting Northern to behave would be legal action; there is no effective ombudsman, regulator or passenger watchdog who understands what is going on at companies like Northern, cares enough or has enough clout to actually do something about it.

 

[jamiearmley]

At a guess, I recon the guard was trying to explain that there is a 10 minute minimum connection time at Leeds, which results in Advance single itineraries being produced which reflect that. Sounds like he explained this badly, confusing themselves and you in the process.

Although his explanation was poor, your ticket does seem to have been invalid for the train you took. I know some posters have said that discretion should have been used, however, the connecting leg from Leeds to Skipton has been mandatory for this type of Advance ticket for several years now. The issue is not with the discretion of the guard but with the ticketing system itself - and that is what needs to change.

In future, perhaps look at the price of an off peak single for this journey compared to the Advance single. You may find it's pennies different and will give you better flexibility over your entire journey.

I know of one passenger making the exact journey, but in reverse from Skipton to kings cross, a few weeks back whose advance ticket was £73.80. She was 2 hours late for her train and was trying to buy a whole new ticket when I came across her. I stopped her doing this and excessed her advance - and this cost her 80 pence to turn her ticket into the flexible single (£74.60).

 

[Hadders]

In future, perhaps look at the price of an off peak single for this journey compared to the Advance single. You may find it's pennies different and will give you better flexibility over your entire journey.

But if LNER get their way the Off Peak Single will be abolished leaving just Advance Fares, 70-Minute Flex and Anytime.

 

[WestAnglian]

Having just seen the screenshot posted above, you were indeed presented the T&Cs. The word 'booked' applies both to the LNER train and the required connecting train. It even states 'valid on selected train only' - it should of course be pluralised.

It isn't clear to me at all that it should be pluralised. In any case, it isn't.

I think this thread shows the confusion about connections to advance services. I believe the intention is that you travel on the booked train for the main, substantial, part of the journey. This is also often the one operated by the fare-setting TOC, forms the bulk of your journey and is on a route with a high proportion of seat reservations, so I am talking about long, multi-operator trips here, not a journey from one suburban Northern station to another. If I am travelling from Bishop's Stortford to, say, York via Ely, I must be on the LNER service booked. How I start my journey doesn't really matter because GA don't do seat reservations and don't really give a tiny toss which train I use. An edge case would be an Advance sold by GA for a journey entirely on their trains, but I'm not sure they survived COCID. In that case the train reservation would need to be observed.

I mention Bishop's Stortford to York for a reason. I was booked on an advance for that journey two weeks ago. I was uneasy having only seven minutes at Cambridge to get from my GA train, terminating in one of the south-facing bays, to my XC, at the north end of the through platform, so I got to Bishop's Stortford early. The chap on the barrier wouldn't let me in, telling me I needed to wait for the specific train in my itinerary. Luckilly the conversation was overheard by a member of booking office staff, a person who has been helpful in the past and is clearly respected by colleagues. She intervened and said that for this journey so far as GA were concerned I could use any service.

I wouldn't have pushed my luck by trying, for instance, to catch an earlier XC to Peterborough or even to get there by GN and EMR, but the GA person's reply does make sense in these circumstances.

 

[30907]

I know of one passenger making the exact journey, but in reverse from Skipton to kings cross, a few weeks back whose advance ticket was £73.80. She was 2 hours late for her train and was trying to buy a whole new ticket when I came across her. I stopped her doing this and excessed her advance - and this cost her 80 pence to turn her ticket into the flexible single (£74.60).

More typical at short notice is the £15 difference shown upthread.

Meanwhile, "Offpeak Single" and "LNER" are uneasy bedfellows ATM. In the brave new world of Advance and Flex, if I want the option of a few minutes extra at Leeds for my London connection I will have to pay extra for the Flex.

 

[jamiearmley]

But if LNER get their way the Off Peak Single will be abolished leaving just Advance Fares, 70-Minute Flex and Anytime.

Yes, and this would be a toxic move as discussed as infinitum elsewhere.

The more people who revert back to the flexible ticket, the harder it will be to justify.

More typical at short notice is the £15 difference shown upthread.

Meanwhile, "Offpeak Single" and "LNER" are uneasy bedfellows ATM. In the brave new world of Advance and Flex, if I want the option of a few minutes extra at Leeds for my London connection I will have to pay extra for the Flex.

Please don't waste your money. Just specify a longer connection at Leeds when booking, or book as two separate tickets. As long as you observe the minimum connection time, any combination of tickets counts as a through journey - important for delay repay and NRCoT rights.