What traction could be used on the Fife circular peak hour additional services?

[Clansman]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/fife-circle-loco-hauled-to-stay-on-tender-issued.197888/


https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=NOV373366

Section VI: Complementary information
VI.3) Additional information
Each service will consist of a minimum of 370 standard class seats. There must be a minimum of 3 toilets per service, one of which shall be universally accessible. Vehicles must be fitted with toilet retention tanks and comply with the Persons of Reduced Mobility TSI [and other relevant legislation].

ASR is specifically seeking responses from suppliers who can provide a turnkey solution, ie. operate and maintain the rolling stock. We anticipate this will be through use of Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock with supplier providing loco, coaches, driver and maintenance. ASR will provide a conductor on each passenger service.

We may however consider the following options if these can be provided in a more cost effective and resilient manner:

- Diesel multiple units are offered on an appropriate lease. ASR will operate the services providing driver, conductor and maintenance staff as required;

- Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock is offered and leased directly by ASR. ASR maintain the stock. The supplier provides locomotive and driver with ASR providing a conductor on each passenger service.

We invite expressions of interest which set out the potential suppliers preferred route for providing the services. ASR will then prepare appropriate tender documentation which reflects the market capability to supply the services we require.

NOTE: To register your interest in this notice and obtain any additional information please visit the Public Contracts Scotland Web Site at https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/Search/Search_Switch.aspx?ID=605957.

(SC Ref:605957)

Interesting.

It heavily leans towards existing stock rather than new builds. Something to come in, do the job, and be a decent stop gap for a couple years.

Hedging bets strongly on Mk4s given they're the only LH coaches available for lease that require the least PRM mods done - as shown with TfW opting for them over a Wabtec style Mk3 solution.

Also coincidentally, the capacity of a rake of 5 x Mk4 TSOs, including the UAT vehicle is 372 seats (370 excluding fold up disabled seats). Maintenance wise, Mossend have Craigentinny and Polmadie on hand nearby who have been dealing with them since they came into service so it's not entirely new territory.

Really can't see any viable alternative with existing stock that meets the specs outlined. Unless they're trying to entice Angel & Wabtec to get them 2 additional HST sets as compo for their saga - a 6 car set adds up to 386 seats, and would fit in with the idea for 2 x 6 sets as planned anyways without having to reduce other sets.

Though perhaps I'm looking too deep and logical into it and TS would never do such a thing.

 

[gingertom]

Interesting.

It heavily leans towards existing stock rather than new builds. Something to come in, do the job, and be a decent stop gap for a couple years.

Hedging bets strongly on Mk4s given they're the only LH coaches available for lease that require the least PRM mods done - as shown with TfW opting for them over a Wabtec style Mk3 solution.

Also coincidentally, the capacity of a rake of 5 x Mk4s TSOs including the UAT vehicle is 372 (370 excluding fold up disabled seats). Maintenance wise Mossend have Craigentinny and Polmadie on hand nearby who have been dealing with them since they came into service so it's not entirely new territory.

Really can't see any viable alternative with existing stock that meets the specs outlined. Unless they're trying to entice Angel & Wabtec to get them 2 additional HST sets as compo for their saga - a 6 car set adds up to 386 capacity, and would fit in with the idea for 2 x 6 sets as planned anyways. Though perhaps I'm looking to deep into it and TS would never do such a thing.

are there clearance issues with the mk4s, it is new territory for them, and hauled by the 68s? HSTs on the other hand have been doing the route for decades.

 

[route101]

are there clearance issues with the mk4s, it is new territory for them, and hauled by the 68s? HSTs on the other hand have been doing the route for decades.

MK4S have been over the Fort Rail Bridge havent they many moons ago.

 

[hibtastic]

MK4S have been over the Fort Rail Bridge havent they many moons ago.

I’m sure they were refurbished or modified at Rosyth many years ago. I think they were moved along the Inverkeithing branch.

 

[sprinterguy]

I’m sure they were refurbished or modified at Rosyth many years ago. I think they were moved along the Inverkeithing branch.

The mark 4 rakes were hauled to Rosyth to be repainted into GNER livery circa 1996/7.

 

[hexagon789]

I think Mk4s are most likely, being available soonest and retention tank fitted. Whether they would be push-pull or top & tailed though...

 

[D365]

I think Mk4s are most likely, being available soonest and retention tank fitted. Whether they would be push-pull or top & tailed though...

Would the Mk4 DVTs need a conversion to be capable of controlling a Class 68?

 

[Far north 37]

I think Mk4s are most likely, being available soonest and retention tank fitted. Whether they would be push-pull or top & tailed though...

If there used on the fife circle they wouldnt need to be push pulled or top and tail would they.

 

[hexagon789]

Would the Mk4 DVTs need a conversion to be capable of controlling a Class 68?

Believe so, the alternative would perhaps be top & tail with two TOEs in the formation, assuming that's possible

 

[hexagon789]

If there used on the fife circle they wouldnt to be push pulled or top and tail would they.

Not sure what you mean here

 

[matt]

The current Fife circles services only need to have a loco on one end.

 

[xotGD]

The DVT could be used purely as a guards van, with the cab not used.

 

[Far north 37]

Not sure what you mean here

Edited missed a word out by mistake sorry.

 

[hexagon789]

Edited missed a word out by mistake sorry.

Ah, in that case no, they wouldn't. I think they use one loco and run-round the stock iirc

 

[hexagon789]

The DVT could be used purely as a guards van, with the cab not used.

Again, very possible.

I do enjoy these rolling stock threads, they always have lots of good ideas and interesting suggestions

 

[Far north 37]

Ah, in that case no, they wouldn't. I think they use one loco and run-round the stock iirc

No the trains run round the fife circle with no need for locos to run around the stock,

 

[Bletchleyite]

What happens at Edinburgh? Both sides of the circle are the same side, aren't they?

 

[matt]

What happens at Edinburgh? Both sides of the circle are the same side, aren't they?

The empties currently come from Motherwell via the Edinburgh Suburban line so face the right way.

e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G66164/2020-01-06/detailed

 

[jopsuk]

If Clansman's maths on the Mark 4s is right, then that the requirement matches really does point strongly at them. I doubt it is a coincidence.

With Mark 4s, would the doors, PIS etc work without the DVT?

 

[Far north 37]

If Clansman's maths on the Mark 4s is right, then that the requirement matches really does point strongly at them. I doubt it is a coincidence.

With Mark 4s, would the doors, PIS etc work without the DVT?

There able to work chiltern mark 3s with the same type doors etc so im sure it wouldn't be to much of a problem surely.

 

[gingertom]

Thanks for explaining.

I'm sure they'd consider, say, three 158s, if that gave a similar capacity to a five coach loco-hauled rake - and it doesn't restrict bidders to only one type of carriages.)

if anybody has three 158s going spare, why have they not been snapped up already?

 

[Speed43125]

if anybody has three 158s going spare, why have they not been snapped up already?

i think that was hypothetical, as we know, many TOCs are short of DMUs, so there really are no 90+ mph DMUs going spare, maybe the odd 150 or something but that's it.

 

[gingertom]

i think that was hypothetical, as we know, many TOCs are short of DMUs, so there really are no 90+ mph DMUs going spare, maybe the odd 150 or something but that's it.

might be some 185s available soon, although that would be overkill and probably too expensive to run.

 

[jopsuk]

There able to work chiltern mark 3s with the same type doors etc so im sure it wouldn't be to much of a problem surely.

Chiltern run theirs with a DVT. WSMR went to DVTs (rather than top and tail 67s) before they added the power doors.

And the only time Mark 4s have been in service without Mark 4 DVTs they had HST power cars modified to be surrogates. I was wondering if the door control system, PIS etc requires some sort of hub in the guard's office in the DVT.

Even if it does, that still doesn't mean they'll be driven from there

 

[alangla]

Thought Mk4s couldn’t fit through one of the tunnels near Burntisland? Last time they crossed the bridge, they turned left at Inverkeithing and headed for Rosyth. They’ve never turned right IIRC. The issue may have gone away when the route was cleared for Azumas though

 

[43096]

And the only time Mark 4s have been in service without Mark 4 DVTs they had HST power cars modified to be surrogates.

They didn't. It was Class 91s replacing a power car on an HST set.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The empties currently come from Motherwell via the Edinburgh Suburban line so face the right way.

e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G66164/2020-01-06/detailed

But what happens at Motherwell? Do the locos never run round the stock?

 

[matt]

But what happens at Motherwell? Do the locos never run round the stock?

Obviously they run round but they only need to do it at the depot so currently no need for push/pull capability

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Obviously they run round but they only need to do it at the depot so currently no need for push/pull capability

Yes but the mk4s are really designed to be hauled from the TSO(E) end not through the DVT. You’d have to run with the DVT or have 2xTSO(E), one at each end to get round the drawbar issue.

 

[gingertom]

Yes but the mk4s are really designed to be hauled from the TSO(E) end not through the DVT. You’d have to run with the DVT or have 2xTSO(E), one at each end to get round the drawbar issue.

or run them to Edinburgh via Carstairs to avoid the run round?