Stagecoach Group (Group-wide matters)

[TheGrandWazoo]

I gather discussions have been under way for some time now.

I'd be prepared for a lot of changes in the UK industry. EYMS is just the start - lots of rumours going on and doubtless a lot of deals won't happen. I could tell you a few that never made it

 

[overthewater]

I'd be prepared for a lot of changes in the UK industry. EYMS is just the start - lots of rumours going on and doubtless a lot of deals won't happen. I could tell you a few that never made it

I know york never made it nor did X, Y , Z. I do believe there was alot of deals never know got completed. But there is only so much people can sell off and merge before CMA comes a knocking.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I know york never made it nor did X, Y , Z. I do believe there was alot of deals never know got completed. But there is only so much people can sell off and merge before CMA comes a knocking.

Which is why speculation is largely futile

Anyhow, this is the Stagecoach thread. Will be interesting to see which OpCos get the much reduced new vehicle intake though, it should be noted, that Stagecoach does sometimes have supplementary orders.

I’ll defer to Mr Bonwick on that one!!

 

[Rod_259]

I'd be prepared for a lot of changes in the UK industry. EYMS is just the start - lots of rumours going on and doubtless a lot of deals won't happen. I could tell you a few that never made it

I would think that Stagecoach would be interested in parts of First Manchester maybe to bolster the Middleton services. However, no one in their right mind would invest there with franchising on the table. Which nutcase would increase their foitprint when they could lose it all without compensation? Mind you no idea where the money would come from!

 

[alex397]

NX routes in Kent have been reducing but it is conceivable that a dedicated service (possibly term times only) might pay off. Canterbury has two Universities, all journeys could go via University of Kent (including Parkwood - student accommodation village) which is out of town (city), free advertising on Uni buses, they could throw in a 'free'* return journey with a Unirider ticket.

Would it succeed? No idea - but it might be worth them considering.

I have no solution to the M2 - but neither, as far as I know, has anyone else!

* - not really free because they would hoik up the cost of a Unirider to make allowance.

I have often thought a Megabus service to Canterbury could be a great idea. I presume the reason it hasn't been tried before is because Stagecoach operated the National Express routes in Kent (contracts since passing to NX-owned Kings Ferry, incidentally ending about 90 years of coach operation by Stagecoach East Kent and its traditional predecessor).
Canterbury has a growing student population (although the B word might change things...) with two major universities. Its is very noticeable in the city when the students have left for the holidays, including on the Southeastern Highspeed which is a busy service from Canterbury. The highspeed can be pricey, with off-peak advance tickets with a railcard costing about £24 return to London (although not what I would call astronomical). Many students are of course living off a budget, and I can imagine many would be interested in cheap coach travel, which is why many do use the National Express. Although some tickets for NX are sometimes not much cheaper than the train.
A lot of the journeys of the NX 007 and 022 do not call at the University of Kent, meaning they have to travel to the Bus Station (which is convenient for the city centre based Canterbury Christ Church Uni).

I'd say a Megabus route from Canterbury bus station, with all journeys stopping at Uni of Kent, and potentially a stop somewhere in Chatham (where the Uni of Kent, Canterbury Christ Church and University of Greenwich all have a presence), could have great potential.
One thing I find off putting with the NX routes is the slow crawl through SE London - perhaps Megabus could terminate somewhere other than Victoria (maybe North Greenwich to change to the Jubilee line).

 

[overthewater]

Stagecoach has managed to cling on to Service 101/102 Links Dumfries and Edinburgh.

https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/news/article/2331/bus_service_101102_is_retained

Bus service 101/102 is retained

Published: Monday, 2nd July 2018

A bus service which links Tweeddale communities with Edinburgh and Dumfries has been retained. Partners have agreed to a new tender which will see the 101/102 service continue with providers Stagecoach and continue to serve West Linton

New services introduced
The new 101/102 timetable will also see additional 10.25am and 7.35pm services introduced and a Sunday timetable retained. Two late services which were underused will be removed.

We made partners aware in May 2018 that as part of our subsidised bus services review we did not intend to continue with our current contribution of £135,000 per year to the 101/102 service when the contract ended in August 2018.

A series of options were provided by Stagecoach as part of the new tender process, including a reduction of our contribution to £35,000 per year, which was accepted by the South West of Scotland Transport Partnership (SWestrans).

The new timetable will begin on 19 August 2018.

Councillor Gordon Edgar, Executive Member for Roads and Infrastructure
“As part of our subsidised bus services review, the Council looked at our contributions to services across the Borders.

“We aimed to do this while minimising the impact on bus passengers. We believe the new timetable actually improves the service with additional daytime and evening services.

“We thank the local community for their patience and constructive input during the tender process.”

Council Leader, Councillor Shona Haslam
“With the contract for the 101/102 service coming to an end, the Council believed there was an opportunity to explore various options as part of the tender process.

“A number of options were tabled and we are pleased that the proposal being taken forward will see the 101/102 not only retained, but provide a consistent new timetable with departures at regular times, with a saving of £100,000 to Borders council tax payers.”

“We thank our partners and SWestrans for their co-operation which has ensured passengers from the Scottish Borders, Dumfries and Galloway and Edinburgh can continue to use the service.”

 

[robk23oxf]

I agree that new fleet should come for the S1/2 and 66. The S5's will last at least another year or two, as most are in decent condition.

The word is that the new vehicles for the S1/S2 could be something 'very different' from what is currently operating that route. They may need to be either hybrid or electric as well.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Quick question - I travelled back from Inverness to Elgin on one of the "new" batch of Elites on service 10 this evening. I was using an Explorer ticket, and after such a long day I completely forgot to take note of the fleet, or reg number. I'm assuming it's one of the YX67URx batch. Can anyone tell me if these have i-shift transmissions, or have they gone back to the ZF autos?

Elites are all I-shift.Never have been Voith.

Thanks. I was fairly sure they were i-shift, but the way it changed up, it felt more like a ZF 'box. Either the i-shift has become a lot smoother compared to earlier examples I've experienced, or I'm guessing it's because it's still fairly new.

All in all, it was quite a pleasant trip home. Comfy seats, the aircon did its job wonderfully on what was a roaster of a day, and the USB charging point was a godsend. My outward journey was on an E300, and my back is still feeling it!

The 67 plate Elites Stagecoach North Scotland got last year for the 10 and Citylink work (54821-54834) are actually ZF Ecolife examples. The Ecolife is only offered on the B11R examples rated at 360BHP.

 

[GusB]

The 67 plate Elites Stagecoach North Scotland got last year for the 10 and Citylink work (54821-54834) are actually ZF Ecolife examples. The Ecolife is only offered on the B11R examples rated at 360BHP.

Thank you. I should trust my feelings more often, then

 

[Jordan Adam]

Thank you. I should trust my feelings more often, then

Haha, indeed it caught me and a few others off guard when they entered service, but having had a good few runs on them and done some "investigatory" work it can be fully confirmed they're ZF! To be fair the biggest give away is them only having 6 gears and the very smooth changes. The interesting part to me though is the fact the Elite are fitted with Kickdown, something pretty rare these days.

Personally these would be very well suited to the 35 as it's mostly start stop which is where the Ecolife outperforms pretty much anything, but down the line they may struggle as the 10 is a more demanding route with more high speed sections, where the I-Shift is perhaps better suited. Even if it is about as jumpy as a Voith Streetlite!

 

[GusB]

Haha, indeed it caught me and a few others off guard when they entered service, but having had a good few runs on them and done some "investigatory" work it can be fully confirmed they're ZF! To be fair the biggest give away is them only having 6 gears and the very smooth changes. The interesting part to me though is the fact the Elite are fitted with Kickdown, something pretty rare these days.

Personally these would be very well suited to the 35 as it's mostly start stop which is where the Ecolife outperforms pretty much anything, but down the line they may struggle as the 10 is a more demanding route with more high speed sections, where the I-Shift is perhaps better suited. Even if it is about as jumpy as a Voith Streetlite!

Shouldn't all autoboxes (in theory) have kick-down? That doesn't mean it always works, of course. I remember being on a coach trip some moons ago on one of Northern's Metroliners, and we were being passed on the Drumossie brae by cars towing caravans because the kick-down on the 4-speed Voith box refused to work! Anyhow, I fear this is drifting off-topic...

 

[Jordan Adam]

Shouldn't all autoboxes (in theory) have kick-down? That doesn't mean it always works, of course. I remember being on a coach trip some moons ago on one of Northern's Metroliners, and we were being passed on the Drumossie brae by cars towing caravans because the kick-down on the 4-speed Voith box refused to work! Anyhow, I fear this is drifting off-topic...

On the most part now Automatic buses are not fitted with it or have it disabled. Electronic topography systems such as ZFs Topodyn is far superior to the manual kickdown function, as it can detect when the extra RPM/power is actually needed and can protect the vehicle from abuse, prolonging the lifespan of major mechanical parts.

 

[Mwanesh]

Which is why speculation is largely futile

Anyhow, this is the Stagecoach thread. Will be interesting to see which OpCos get the much reduced new vehicle intake though, it should be noted, that Stagecoach does sometimes have supplementary orders.

I’ll defer to Mr Bonwick on that one!!

The order is for 267 buses actually just been confirmed .

 

[Surreyman]

Courtesy of Steven Knight Media

✤Stagecoach UK Bus
We are pleased to be able to summarise the Stagecoach UK Bus new vehicle order for the company’s 2018/19 financial year.
Stagecoach will be adding 267 new vehicles to its fleet in its' current financial year (2018/19).
161 are for regional operations with an additional ten vehicles for Megabus operations. The remainder will join the London-based fleet.
ADL secures the bulk of the order.
The biggest element of the regional order is for 94 MMC-model Enviro 400s, with 45 being finished to Gold specification. The midibus MMC Enviro 200 fleet will be boosted with one 8.9m model, and 14 10.8m versions. There are also 23 11.8m MMC Enviro 200 single decks in the order.
In a first for Stagecoach the company will also take delivery of nine ADL/BYD electric single decks for the Park & Ride operation in Guildford.
Nine further low entry Volvo B8RLE chassis with the Plaxton Panther LE bodywork will join the East Scotland fleet at Dunfermline, bringing the total number of the type operated to 19. Six of the new Plaxton Panorama vehicles on Volvo B11R chassis will join the West Scotland fleet at Ayr whilst ten Plaxton elite i-bodied Volvo B11Rs will update the Megabus fleet.
Six open top Wrightbus Gemini-bodied Volvo B5TLs are for the Cambridge Sightseeing operation operated by Stagecoach East.
Around a third of the regional order has already been delivered.
London operations will receive 96 vehicles with the 63 double decks being ADL 48v smart hybrids, for Barking and West Ham. 33 MMC Enviro 200s comprise a mix of 8.9 m, 9.7m and 10.8m variants.
Details of the order are as follows. Fleet numbers marked * are the expected number range.

ADL Enviro 400 MMC (94)
10941-10970 Stagecoach South (Worthing)
10971-10981 Stagecoach East Midlands (Mansfield) (Pronto livery)
10982-10996 Stagecoach West (Swindon) (Gold Specification)
11101-11117* Stagecoach Merseyside & South Lancashire (Gilmoss)
11118-11125* Stagecoach Yorkshire (Chesterfield) (Gold Specification)
11126-11138* Stagecoach Midlands (Kettering) (Gold Specification)

Volvo B5TL/Wright Gemini open top (6)
13808-13813 Stagecoach East (Cambridge) (City Sightseeing Cambridge)

ADL Enviro 200MMC 8.9m (1)
37467 Stagecoach South Wales (Porth)

ADL Enviro 200MMC 10.8m (14)
37468-37481 Stagecoach South West (Exeter)

ADL Enviro 200MMC 11.8m (23)
26112-26126 Stagecoach East Scotland (St Andrews)
26127-26134 Stagecoach North Scotland (Inverness/Moray)

ADL Enviro 200/BYD electric (9)
29xxx-29xxx (9 vehicles) Stagecoach South (Guildford) (Guildford Park & Ride)

Volvo B8RLE/Plaxton Panther LE (9)
54511-54519 Stagecoach East Scotland (Dunfermline)

Volvo B11R/Plaxton Panorama (5)
50401-50405 Stagecoach West Scotland (Ayr)

Volvo B11R/Plaxton elite I (10)
54xxx-54xxx (10 vehicles) Megabus Operations (Rugby/Cwmbran)

ADL Enviro 400MMC smart Hybrid (63)
11001-11016 Stagecoach London (Barking)
11017-11054 Stagecoach London (West Ham)
11055-11063 Stagecoach London (Barking)

ADL Enviro 200MMCs (various lengths/door configuration) (33)
37507-37513 Stagecoach London (Kangley Bridge)
37514-37525 Stagecoach London (Romford)
37526-37539 Stagecoach London (Rainham)

 

[overthewater]

So the addtional 9 low floor coaches are from this year's order. The 16 displaced single deckers from Merseyside have gone to Ayrshire.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Looks like I was good for the 66 at Swindon getting new fleet.... well, I suspect that's where the Swindon Gold deckers are headed!

Suspect the Kettering ones will be headed to the X4.

 

[Dentonian]

I would think that Stagecoach would be interested in parts of First Manchester maybe to bolster the Middleton services. However, no one in their right mind would invest there with franchising on the table. Which nutcase would increase their foitprint when they could lose it all without compensation? Mind you no idea where the money would come from!

There is no way the CMA would allow Stagecoach to purchase any other Operator in GM, except possibly one that is concentrated solely in the Bury/Bolton areas. The assumption that Operators wouldn't be "compensated" for loss of assets might need further investigation as I feel sure I've read somewhere that this would not be the case even if an Operator failed to win franchises covering anything like the size of their (ever shrinking) commercial network. As for "no idea" where the money will come from, that really is a massive question overarching the whole of British politics and ethics. Clue; TfL's annual budget is over £10 BILLION equal to over £1100 per Londoner and is sourced from outside the Greater London's 33 Authorities as well as inside it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There is no way the CMA would allow Stagecoach to purchase any other Operator in GM, except possibly one that is concentrated solely in the Bury/Bolton areas. The assumption that Operators wouldn't be "compensated" for loss of assets might need further investigation as I feel sure I've read somewhere that this would not be the case even if an Operator failed to win franchises covering anything like the size of their (ever shrinking) commercial network. As for "no idea" where the money will come from, that really is a massive question overarching the whole of British politics and ethics. Clue; TfL's annual budget is over £10 BILLION equal to over £1100 per Londoner and is sourced from outside the Greater London's 33 Authorities as well as inside it.

Nerd will probably highlight the response of the relevant select committee who have said that they believe that their is no inherent exclusivity and so that compensation would not be payable.

The issue with that is a) this is like getting someone to mark their own homework - it's in their interest to interpret something in the way in which they wish to interpret it and b) you can essentially nationalise anything on that basis - you can franchise the production of baked beans. Heinz fail to win the franchise (but hey, they didn't have an exclusive right to manufacture and supply baked beans) and are left with the infrastructure etc that they can sell (though in reality, it becomes a fire sale). The inherent worth of the business (e.g. goodwill) is effectively removed and not compensated.

The funding of public transport in the UK is a major issue and, sorry to say, I don't buy the argument that people are increasingly coming round to increased taxation for it. Increased taxes for the NHS - possibly.... but not public transport.

To keep things on topic, interesting to see the deliveries for the North of England. Not much - 36 deckers split between Liverpool, Mansfield and Chesterfield. Nowt for the North East, Cumbria and North Lancs, Manchester or Humberside/Lincs.

 

[Tetchytyke]

To keep things on topic, interesting to see the deliveries for the North of England. Not much - 36 deckers split between Liverpool, Mansfield and Chesterfield. Nowt for the North East, Cumbria and North Lancs, Manchester or Humberside/Lincs.

Nowt for the most profitable bits of the business, yet again. I'm guessing they're going to keep flogging those E400s until they die. Why not? It's pretty much a captive audience up here, they saw off Quality Contracts with vague promises of jam tomorrow and outright lies, why invest?

 

[Dentonian]

.

The issue with that is a) this is like getting someone to mark their own homework - it's in their interest to interpret something in the way in which they wish to interpret it and b) you can essentially nationalise anything on that basis - you can franchise the production of baked beans. Heinz fail to win the franchise (but hey, they didn't have an exclusive right to manufacture and supply baked beans) and are left with the infrastructure etc that they can sell (though in reality, it becomes a fire sale). The inherent worth of the business (e.g. goodwill) is effectively removed and not compensated.

The funding of public transport in the UK is a major issue and, sorry to say, I don't buy the argument that people are increasingly coming round to increased taxation for it. Increased taxes for the NHS - possibly.... but not public transport.

To keep things on topic, interesting to see the deliveries for the North of England. Not much - 36 deckers split between Liverpool, Mansfield and Chesterfield. Nowt for the North East, Cumbria and North Lancs, Manchester or Humberside/Lincs.

Who is on the Select Committee? Surely, they will broadly represent the number of MPs of each party in the Commons ie. more back-bench Tories than Labour with very few from any other party. Thus, why would they allow rules seen to be attacking businesses. The other (probably more relevant) point, is I've noticed you - and others - talking about Franchise, singular. IF GMCA (not TFGM) decide to proceed with franchising, it is anticipated that there will be anything up to 35 franchises across the county - some larger than others, and so naturally allowing smaller Operators a realistic chance. Indeed, one thing that has been made clear is that their will be no "big bang", of the whole county being Franchised from one specific date. This suggests that Stagecoach (for one) have already decided they don't WANT to bid, rather than are explicitly worried about losing the share they already have commercially. Obviously, with the status quo, the business will continue to decline anyway, so are they just getting the excuses in early.

My point about taxation (or financing more generally) was not as simple as you paint - not least because the "taxpayer" is not ASKED what they think their taxes should be spent on...............or indeed where. It is "assumed" that people are happy to pay FAR more tax for Rail than for Bus and similarly FAR more for public services for Londoners than for the rest of the UK. FTR, I challenged the TaxPayers' Alliance about this following a media report on "bus subsidies" a few months ago. Half expecting a "London is a special case and trains keep the SE economy moving" diatribe, I was pleased to get a reply saying that the TPA do NOT support the massive amount of money spent on rail compared to bus AND that they believe this disparity is partly driven by a London-obsessed Media. As with other such "reports" more recently, what is clear is that the MEDIA are the real power brokers in this country, and they are forever selecting tiny parts of reports for their own propoganda, whilst ignoring the rest of a far more balanced report.

 

[Mwanesh]

Nowt for the most profitable bits of the business, yet again. I'm guessing they're going to keep flogging those E400s until they die. Why not? It's pretty much a captive audience up here, they saw off Quality Contracts with vague promises of jam tomorrow and outright lies, why invest?

One thing is we may think its profitable .It might not be .With franchising on the horizon they are not taking a risk .You might be shocked that the areas that have got investment this year are the profitable ones.We can argue but the figures they have will be different from what we see.

 

[mbonwick]

The 16 displaced single deckers from Merseyside have gone to Ayrshire.

Some, not all the E300s have gone to Ayr. Think you need to keep a closer eye on numbers.

 

[Tetchytyke]

One thing is we may think its profitable .It might not be

Margin at Busways is well over 20%. It's profitable. It's also a captive audience, which is why we've never seen anything like Gold up here.

 

[overthewater]

Some, not all the E300s have gone to Ayr. Think you need to keep a closer eye on numbers.

I blame the heat

 

[gka472l]

Some, not all the E300s have gone to Ayr. Think you need to keep a closer eye on numbers.

Three went to Stagecoach South, 27774/5/80......

 

[Dentonian]

Margin at Busways is well over 20%. It's profitable. It's also a captive audience, which is why we've never seen anything like Gold up here.

I empathise with your sentiments and one of the biggest arguments for a form of Reregulation is indeed to stop the Captive markets (ie. the poor) being exploited. As a matter of interest, does this apply equally across the North East (or indeed the "Busways" bit). Here in "Manchester", it is possibly an even bigger argument because it is the poorest, most loyal customers paying the highest fares. Whilst, Mwanesh might have a point with some observations, it is very difficult to avoid obvious examples of some routes consistently carrying 50+ pax per head (mostly adults) at £2 to £2.50 minimum for 1-2.5 miles, whilst others are carrying an average of 10-12 pax at £1.70 for 5-6 miles. And there are of course, examples in between as Rod_259 might have noticed.... NB. Day/weekly tickets also vary, though not by as much

 

[Charlie M.]

Looks like I was good for the 66 at Swindon getting new fleet.... well, I suspect that's where the Swindon Gold deckers are headed!

Suspect the Kettering ones will be headed to the X4.

66 current units to Gloucester? Or split half to Gloucester? Might be able to increase capacity on the 1 and 8 at peak times/replace tridents(current plan)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Who is on the Select Committee? Surely, they will broadly represent the number of MPs of each party in the Commons ie. more back-bench Tories than Labour with very few from any other party. Thus, why would they allow rules seen to be attacking businesses. The other (probably more relevant) point, is I've noticed you - and others - talking about Franchise, singular. IF GMCA (not TFGM) decide to proceed with franchising, it is anticipated that there will be anything up to 35 franchises across the county - some larger than others, and so naturally allowing smaller Operators a realistic chance. Indeed, one thing that has been made clear is that their will be no "big bang", of the whole county being Franchised from one specific date. This suggests that Stagecoach (for one) have already decided they don't WANT to bid, rather than are explicitly worried about losing the share they already have commercially. Obviously, with the status quo, the business will continue to decline anyway, so are they just getting the excuses in early.

My point about taxation (or financing more generally) was not as simple as you paint - not least because the "taxpayer" is not ASKED what they think their taxes should be spent on...............or indeed where. It is "assumed" that people are happy to pay FAR more tax for Rail than for Bus and similarly FAR more for public services for Londoners than for the rest of the UK. FTR, I challenged the TaxPayers' Alliance about this following a media report on "bus subsidies" a few months ago. Half expecting a "London is a special case and trains keep the SE economy moving" diatribe, I was pleased to get a reply saying that the TPA do NOT support the massive amount of money spent on rail compared to bus AND that they believe this disparity is partly driven by a London-obsessed Media. As with other such "reports" more recently, what is clear is that the MEDIA are the real power brokers in this country, and they are forever selecting tiny parts of reports for their own propoganda, whilst ignoring the rest of a far more balanced report.

You're mistaken. McDonalds or Starbucks acts as an (in part) franchise model - the model is singular but that isn't to say they only let one franchise. So when people mention the franchise model singular, they are correct. That it is to be made up of multiple franchises is something that, I believe, most people know.

Also, you say the taxpayer is not asked. There was a referendum in Greater Manchester in which over 50% of the electorate voted and took the opportunity to reject the congestion charge (a tax to essentially fund public transport improvements) by a massive margin. There are increasingly surveys taken to see if the people are in favour of additional spending. Interesting, Deloitte's annual survey that showed that of the respondents when asked which areas should be protected from spending cuts, not surprisingly 80% cited the NHS/Healthcare with 49% on education, Police 32% and Social Care 27%. In fact, fire services, social services, defence and housing were all placed well ahead of public transport.

Of course Stagecoach are vehemently against franchising. They have a business that makes x, and is worth a hell of a lot more. In their position, you'd not wish it to be taken away.

Margin at Busways is well over 20%. It's profitable. It's also a captive audience, which is why we've never seen anything like Gold up here.

Busways is not "well over 20%" - it is 16% (which is still very healthy) but that isn't the reason why Gold hasn't been rolled out there.

It was always notable that Nexus raised the 20% figure yet never mentioned that Go North East have much lower margins.... wonder why that was?

As a matter of interest, does this apply equally across the North East (or indeed the "Busways" bit).

Cleveland Transit is the non Busways bit and that too is about 16%.

 

[al_557]

Looks like I was good for the 66 at Swindon getting new fleet.... well, I suspect that's where the Swindon Gold deckers are headed!

Suspect the Kettering ones will be headed to the X4.

The Kettering ones are indeed for the X4 and the current fleet of 61 plate gold spec Scania Enviro 400's will be heading up to Merseyside

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I agree that new fleet should come for the S1/2 and 66. The S5's will last at least another year or two, as most are in decent condition.

Was thinking the S5 ones were 61 plates as well. That said, saw one of the S3 ones in Bicester today and the presentation was very poor for Stagecoach.

The Kettering ones are indeed for the X4 and the current fleet of 61 plate gold spec Scania Enviro 400's will be heading up to Merseyside

Not been on those for a couple of years but they were pretty hard worked then.