Stagecoach Minibuses now launched in Ashford

[Busaholic]

However in this instance Stagecoach have entered into a full ?5 year repair and maintenance contract, meaning Mercedes-Benz will be liable for such issues.

I understand the fuel savings are significant, with the new minibuses being up to 17mpg better than some of the vehicles they'll be replacing.

The project is also about growing passenger numbers in order to offset additional drivers costs. One of the key elements being it's turn up and go nature, links to the station for commuters and the fact it will serve some new housing estate still under construction. The idea being that the new residents of the estate will get used to using the bus from the word go, so that bus travel will become part of their ingrained travel pattern.

It used to be not uncommon for bus services to be provided to estates when they were at a very early stage of development. I remember travelling on the first day of new routes to Roundshaw near Sutton in 1969 and St. Nicholas in Stevenage in 1970. The latter was worked by a crew vehicle so that the conductor could assist reversing at what was essentially a building site! More recently, the orthodox view seems to have become 'we have to have potential volume before we provide a service', by which time people may have voted with their feet, so good on Stagecoach.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Indeed, I do remember the handbrake. Was it a pull up out of the floor and twist affair?

That's right... slightest touch would allow them to spring off... which was the problem... reaching up and concentrating to change the blind it was so easy to nudge it with your knee

 

[Bletchleyite]

The idea being that the new residents of the estate will get used to using the bus from the word go, so that bus travel will become part of their ingrained travel pattern.

Planning gain is usually used to deliver this kind of thing - doing it commercially is a very welcome development.

FWIW, it might well get more residents on side, as a common complaint in MK is of full-sized buses going through estates churning up verges as they struggle to get round.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

FWIW, it might well get more residents on side, as a common complaint in MK is of full-sized buses going through estates churning up verges as they struggle to get round.

I worked for MK Metro for a couple of years and I've got to say that the only time I ever had to go over the grass verges was to get round stupidly parked cars owned by people who thought that they owned the road outside their house and sod anyone else that wants to use it... in fact 99.99% of the problems with churned up verges was caused by the same arrogant ignorant house owners who thought the grass verge outside their house was their own personal parking space!

 

[Bletchleyite]

unless of course current levels of usage are approx 8 passengers/journey.... and then that would need investigating as to how the company has been keepng those services going without cross subsidy which is illegal!

FWIW, 8 passengers per journey (well, at any given time, as most of the routes are multi-centred) is fairly typical for (commercial) routes in MK off-peak.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

FWIW, 8 passengers per journey (well, at any given time, as most of the routes are multi-centred) is fairly typical for (commercial) routes in MK off-peak.

Yes but this thread concerns Ashford, a small town with 1 maybe 2 main focusses. MK is rather unique, due to it's design. In fact MK's long (mostly cross "city") services are really lots of little local overlapping services strung together..

and let's be honest... if minibus operation was such a success at generating new custom where are all these wonderful services running at 5 min frequencies with DD where the service before minibuses ran at a 30 min frequency before conversion to minis?

 

[GusB]

They probably *could* get away with paying a bit less if they had D1 licenced minibus drivers. However, they have chosen not to do so by allowing standees on the buses, requiring a full D because they carry more than 16 passengers.

Maybe things have moved on since I was a nipper, but I thought the whole point of "D1" on the driving licence was that is was "not for hire or reward".

I was under the impression that you had to have a PSV/PCV/whatever in order to drive vehicles that were used for a regular commercial service, regardless of the size of the vehicle.

I have had some experience working with a community transport company, and the drivers operated under Section 19 permits (I'm going back to 1999/2000) to get around the requirements to have a "full" licence.

I'd be interested to know how things have changed over the years.

 

[ECML180]

IIRC one of the main problems found with using van derived minibuses in the 80's was that any fuel savings were soon eaten up with higher costs of clutch replacement, brake replacement, engine replacement etc due to the vehicles being punished way beyond their designed use....

Fair point, but as others have said maintenance is bought in from Mercedes, so they ought to have the experience to sort it. Although in the Coach & Bus Week article it is described as an 'open ended trial' partly to evaluate the repair & maintence. Again as other have said the technology has come a long way, I've worked for an operator who ran sprinter minicoaches fairly intensively and the main issues with them was the bodywork (not mercedes) not being able to meet the wear and tear, the chassis/engines were pretty sound and despite not always having the best driving they returned very good MPG.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Looking at the photos of them and of a short wheelbase Optare Solo, why didn't they go for a short wheelbase Optare Solo?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I worked for MK Metro for a couple of years and I've got to say that the only time I ever had to go over the grass verges was to get round stupidly parked cars owned by people who thought that they owned the road outside their house and sod anyone else that wants to use it... in fact 99.99% of the problems with churned up verges was caused by the same arrogant ignorant house owners who thought the grass verge outside their house was their own personal parking space!

If it was MK Metro days, you were probably mostly driving smaller buses (minibuses or Solos)? Of late, full size buses are more the norm.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but this thread concerns Ashford, a small town with 1 maybe 2 main focusses. MK is rather unique, due to it's design. In fact MK's long (mostly cross "city") services are really lots of little local overlapping services strung together..

Very true, though my point was more that a commercial service carrying 8 passengers can be viable if not very profitable.

Maybe things have moved on since I was a nipper, but I thought the whole point of "D1" on the driving licence was that is was "not for hire or reward".

That's D1 (101) which you used to get "free" with your car licence. You can also do a test to gain a full commercial D1 licence, which because of the nature of the vehicles involved is much easier than D.

 

[Tetchytyke]

somehow I think mercedes will get their fingers burnt with that unless they've learned the lessons of previous intensive minibus operation...

To be honest, Mercedes Sprinter vans are bombproof, look at how many courier firms use them. I don't see why the buses would be different.

We're not talking Freight Rover junk anymore.

If you read my earlier post about driver cost per passenger you will see that they will have to increase passenger numbers by 1/3 to 1/2

However, don't forget to factor in all the other on-costs. I'd expect Stagecoach have got a good deal with the importer which is trying to build a market, so the engineering savings will be significant. There's also fuel consumption. I can well believe a saving of 15mpg. Sure, the minibuses won't do the advertised fuel consumption rate, but then the vehicles it is being compared to will be similarly, er, optimistic with the stated fuel consumption rates.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest, Mercedes Sprinter vans are bombproof, look at how many courier firms use them. I don't see why the buses would be different.

And there are plenty of Sprinters with various bodywork types on them being used for community transport etc all over the place. These tend to be high floor, wheelchair-lift-fitted variants, but they still get worked hard.

 

[the101]

To be honest, Mercedes Sprinter vans are bombproof, look at how many courier firms use them. I don't see why the buses would be different.

At last, someone who realises that the Sprinter of today is not really comparable to Freight Rovers from 30 years ago.

The point that has been made about clutch repair costs is dubious at best as the Stagecoach minibuses are automatics. The point about brake relines is similar, as the Sprinters have Telma retarders fitted that activate from both the brake pedal and via a stalk on the dash. As for the engine, they are good for several hundred thousand miles, but even if the odd one needs replacing it's hardly the end of the world.

The Achilles heel on these things will be the 'drop box' on the back of the gearbox that takes the prop beneath the low-floor section. It is quite flimsy and not likely to stand up to years of stop-start operation, particularly if they are driven hard. Additionally, I don't know how in the prop is routed in Mercedes' in-house conversions, but a standalone converter with a similar product has routed the prop in this area through the cross-members. Whether that is the case in the factory minibuses I don't know. If not, it is very exposed to speed humps and the like.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must admit to being slightly surprised nobody has done a front-wheel drive, front engined version of something like this, which makes low-floor easier as the rear wheels and suspension could then be independent. Not a van conversion I'll give you, but more generally.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I must admit to being slightly surprised nobody has done a front-wheel drive, front engined version of something like this, which makes low-floor easier as the rear wheels and suspension could then be independent.

I'm guessing that the weight over the front axle, given the equipment for making the bus kneel, would be prohibitive. One would have imagined Optare would have done this with the Solo- their replacement for the front-engined MetroRider- if it had been possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm guessing that the weight over the front axle, given the equipment for making the bus kneel, would be prohibitive. One would have imagined Optare would have done this with the Solo- their replacement for the front-engined MetroRider- if it had been possible.

I expect that problem will solve itself anyway, as future designs (in say 10 years time) will, assuming they have a diesel engine at all, no doubt use electric transmission and things like hub motors, thus meaning independent, potentially 4 wheel drive to 4 totally independently mounted wheels (steering aside), and total flexibility on location of the engine because all it would be is a genset.

I must admit to being surprised that the Toyota Prius doesn't work that way - instead it basically uses a complex kind of diff to combine drive from the engine with that from the motor, and "gears" by braking using the motor!

 

[Strathclyder]

Will be interesting to see how this plays out and if it's successful enough to warrant rolling out elsewhere.

Up here in Greater Glasgow, SPT bought a handful of Evobus-bodied Sprinters in 2014/15 and leased them to McGill's of Greenock for use in the Monklands/Lanarkshire area. Urban regeneration company Clyde Gateway also operate at least one for their CG1 circular community bus service, linking Rutherglen with Carmyle.

 

[83G/84D]

13/2/2017
➨Stagecoach South East
The company’s latest fleet status report details that only four of the 30 Mercedes Sprinters, that entered service from Ashford yesterday, retained their originally booked registrations. 44001/02/05/07 are registered BP16UWW/O/T/V. The remaining vehicles, 44003/04/06/08-30 are reported as registered BV66GRV/X/Z, GSO/U/Y/Z, GTF/U/Y/Z, GUA/C/D/E/F/G/H/J/K/O/U/W/X, GVA/C.
The entry into service of the Mercedes Sprinters at Ashford has resulted in a number of fleet changes. We understand that withdrawn from service at Ashford are MAN/ALX300s 22942/94 and Optare Solos 47117/73. The Enviro 200 type is being eliminated from Ashford (36124/25) and Folkestone (36122/24) with all four planned to transfer to Hastings. Hastings was also due to receive Optare Solo 47660 from Ashford as a replacement for 47174 and Eastbourne was due to receive 47662 as a replacement for 47065.

Source:- http://www.stevenknightmedia.com/fleet-news-ramblings

A photo is also shown.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

If it was MK Metro days, you were probably mostly driving smaller buses (minibuses or Solos)? Of late, full size buses are more the norm.

Not at all... when I was there there was a sizeable fleet of 10m darts along with Cadets and Scania's... (in fact it was easier to get a dart round many roads than a long wheelbase solo)....and there was never really any attempt at keeping the "right" vehicle on the "right" route... many was the time I was expected to get a long dart round such estates as Tattenhoe or Kingsmead.... even older estates such as Browns Wood etc could be a challenge with idiot parking.... IF bus drivers are responsible for the churning up of the grass verges then that just shows a lack of pride and a couldn't care less attitude to their driving... of course it could be that parking on estate roads is now 100 times worse in MK?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I'd expect Stagecoach have got a good deal with the importer which is trying to build a market, so the engineering savings will be significant.

IF Stagecoach have got a good deal involving Mercedes using this as a "loss-leader" then this will be a flawed experiment

There's also fuel consumption. I can well believe a saving of 15mpg. Sure, the minibuses won't do the advertised fuel consumption rate, but then the vehicles it is being compared to will be similarly, er, optimistic with the stated fuel consumption rates.

Strangely enough, the advertised fuel consumption of buses in service now are generally speaking fairly accurate... quite apart from the fact that companies using the vehicles KNOW for a fact what their consumption is...

Seeing as though there is no compulsory European test for "intensive urban bus service conditions" driving for the class of vehicle the Sprinter is then I would guess the figure that everyone is working on is the normal "urban cycle" test.... something tells me Stagecoach will get a shock when they find out how much more thirsty the Sprinters are than expected...

 

[Bletchleyite]

IF bus drivers are responsible for the churning up of the grass verges then that just shows a lack of pride and a couldn't care less attitude to their driving

There are certainly some fitting that description, but to use one example you can't get a full sized bus past another full sized bus in Furzton by the shops unless one bumps up onto the verge. That doesn't happen at the moment because the electric Streetlites (and the diesel substitute) are in use there, of course, but prior to that the verge did get rather chewed around there.

... of course it could be that parking on estate roads is now 100 times worse in MK?

Partly due to the appalling design of parking provision, or the lack thereof. Having only one space per home isn't going to stop people owning cars, they just park them on the road instead.

 

[jammy36]

IF Stagecoach have got a good deal involving Mercedes using this as a "loss-leader" then this will be a flawed experiment


Strangely enough, the advertised fuel consumption of buses in service now are generally speaking fairly accurate... quite apart from the fact that companies using the vehicles KNOW for a fact what their consumption is...

Seeing as though there is no compulsory European test for "intensive urban bus service conditions" driving for the class of vehicle the Sprinter is then I would guess the figure that everyone is working on is the normal "urban cycle" test.... something tells me Stagecoach will get a shock when they find out how much more thirsty the Sprinters are than expected...

Something tells me Stagecoach will have done their homework and won't be in for a shock...

Lets not forget that these aren't new and never been seen vehicles. Sprinter City vehicles may be relative newcomers to this type operating environment in this country, but they are a tried an tested product deployed on similar intensive urban operation in other European countries. I bet Stagecoach know precisely what they've got and the predicted fuel savings I've heard (which are good - between 10 and 17mpg) are based on real world data.

Stagecoach have also been using some of these vehicles intensively for route learning, driver training and familiarisation, so they will be getting a handle on the ins-and-outs of the vehicles.

Looking at the photos of them and of a short wheelbase Optare Solo, why didn't they go for a short wheelbase Optare Solo?

I think the whole vehicle five year Repair & Maintenance contract is more significant than people are acknowledging. My gut feeling is this is an important factor that gives Mercedes a distinct advantage - Optare (along with ADL or Wright) don't have the existing service network to be able to offer this type of R&M package.

Operators like certainty and control of their operating expenditure - set up properly a five year R&M contract offers this (these type of contracts are common in other industries). Everything but everyday expendables is covered (so all Stagecoach need worry about is fluids, bulbs, wiper blades, etc). This means that the burden of employing additional mechanics and technicians, parts stock, depot equipment all falls to Mercedes.

A few final points:
The existing vehicles operating the Ashford Town service weren't the most modern (the Solos for example were largely 58 plate), so replacement vehicles would have been needed.

The vehicles are considerably cheaper to purchase (I understand they are around 33% cheaper than a standard Stagecoach E200 and around 22% cheaper than an Optare Solo).

Ashford isn't the biggest depot (hence why the vehicles have largely been stored at Eastbourne) - this move allows Stagecoach to increase frequencies without finding new or additional depot space - not something they could have done using 'traditional buses'.

Ashford is a rapidly expanding town - it has seen and is to see significant growth in terms of housing numbers - these vehicles and the routes they are being deployed on are intended to capitalise on that growth and develop new travel patters for new residents.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

... but to use one example you can't get a full sized bus past another full sized bus in Furzton by the shops unless one bumps up onto the verge. That doesn't happen at the moment because the electric Streetlites (and the diesel substitute) are in use there, of course, but prior to that the verge did get rather chewed around there.

Of course that could come under the heading of poor driving... a known pinchpoint so said drivers should adjust their speed so they don't meet at that point (or one hang back even)

.. Having only one space per home isn't going to stop people owning cars, they just park them on the road instead.

Or, as I said in an earlier post, parking on the grass verges.... and then blaming the buses for the mess that they themselves have made of their neighbourhood?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is the bus industry starting to go the same way as the rail industry with the buses effectively leased and the manufacturer deals with all maintenance and/or repair work?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the bus industry starting to go the same way as the rail industry with the buses effectively leased and the manufacturer deals with all maintenance and/or repair work?

Quite possibly - that also reduces the barrier to entry of a small operator.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course that could come under the heading of poor driving... a known pinchpoint so said drivers should adjust their speed so they don't meet at that point (or one hang back even)

True, though the relevant section is quite long with relatively poor visibility of whether another vehicle is entering it (don't know if you've driven a 7?)

You could also argue it's a faulty timetable - you could timetable it so that in normal running they don't meet there, unlike how it is timetabled whereby they *will* meet there in normal running. Not only that, but one of them often has to wait 2-3 minutes for time there (and now Arriva use GPS so a driver won't get away with ragging round fast to get a longer break at the end, they actually do wait - it was amazing the difference that made right from the day it was introduced).

Or, as I said in an earlier post, parking on the grass verges.... and then blaming the buses for the mess that they themselves have made of their neighbourhood?

That too, though this particular bit is adjacent to a large car park and you never see any vehicle parked on the road there as a result.

 

[radamfi]

but they are a tried an tested product deployed on similar intensive urban operation in other European countries.

Have you got an example of a high frequency service run by Sprinter City vehicles?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you got an example of a high frequency service run by Sprinter City vehicles?

I haven't seen one.

I've seen that kind of vehicle on the Dutch Buurtbus services, which aren't high-frequency, they're lower-frequency services operated using small vehicles with only 8 passenger seats, meaning a category B licence can be used. They are typically not in the standard fare system either.

There's also the Blankeneser Bergziege ("mountain goat"), but that now uses short "normal" buses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Have you got an example of a high frequency service run by Sprinter City vehicles?

Barcelona (TMB) has a substantial fleet operating in parts of the city (Bus del Barri) that translates as Local or Neighbourhood Bus. They operate in the back streets in areas like Poble Sec that I visited in October.

https://flic.kr/p/7aEssM
https://flic.kr/p/yfv7ur

So fair to say that there is real data that substantiates the business case