Staring, upskirting, touching.

[londontransit]

This is in regards to the new posters and other information that are now prevalent on the tube (as well as newspapers, magazines, bus stops, advertisement hoardings etc)

Just now I was watching Jen on the Move and it seemed there might be announcements - or whether it was something she was thinking aloud I'm not sure.

But it made me wonder whether any announcements have actually been made in relation to these four donts (eg staring, upskirting, touching or pressing.) Has anyone heard such announcements?

 

[D6130]

There are visual announcements to that effect on the PIS screens on Northern's class 195 and 331 units.

 

[Lewlew]

Do we need even more announcements?

 

[Class800]

Do we need even more announcements?

No. Next it will be farting, burping and manspreading.

 

[londontransit]

There are visual announcements to that effect on the PIS screens on Northern's class 195 and 331 units.

I didn't know this, that's interesting! Thanks.

No. Next it will be farting, burping and manspreading.

LOL! It might well be those next for all anyone knows - and we've already had manspreading adverts on the tube! However I had a genuine query in terms of how such information would be presented especially if its in the form of announcements.

 

[NSE]

I haven’t heard any. Though I usually have headphones in so could have missed them. An important topic for sure, but I’m not sure announcements would be the way forward for this one. I think people tune them out. I certainly do.

 

[Mawkie]

There are actually 7 aspects to the full campaign (which is supported by TfL, BTP, MPs, Rail Delivery Group, and various women's groups.)

1.Cat Calling - Making unsolicited remarks of a sexual nature about someone

2.Exposing - Revealing intimate body parts

3.Cyber-flashing - Sending or showing sexual content without consent

4.Pressing - Rubbing against someone on purpose

5.Touching - Touching someone inappropriately

6.Staring - Intrusive staring of a sexual nature

7.Upskirting - Taking photos under someone's clothing

These all seem quite clear to me. The campaign aims to stop the normalisation of these behaviours and by reporting incidents, build an intelligence profile of when a potential offender strikes, where they strike, what they look like, and the behaviours they exhibit. The police are happy to receive reports from anyone, even if they are witnesses rather than victims of said behaviours.

I hope people recognise that a quick flirtatious glance is completely different to 10 minutes of leering and unnatural head and neck movements in order to try to move into someone's eyeline, that accidentally brushing shoulders with someone as you leave a train is different to the concerted pressing of their genitals against you between stops, or that any of the other behaviours in the campaign are acceptable. They are not.

To equate this highly sexualised behaviour to "holding doors open", or "walking arm in arm" with someone you are friends with, only serves to trivialise and undermine the actual point of this campaign - which is the rejection of the normalisation of these behaviours. If stopping men trying to take pictures of women's vaginas is "ultra feminist", then sign me up!

 

[deltic]

Well said @Mawkie

 

[Magdalia]

There's not much from the women's perspective here!

Staring, touching and pressing are not sexual displays: I doubt that any couples could say that they met when the man touched up the woman on a tube train.

From women's perspective, staring, touching and pressing on public transport are displays of aggression, intimidation and entitlement in a confined public space. And yes, manspreading should be added to the list, it is another tool (pun intended) that men use to dominate in a confined space. Hands on shoulders and opening doors are subtler variants of the same thing: if you doubt this watch the body language of world leaders on TV news when they meet at political "summits".

Upskirting is different, being a form of voyeurism.

And clothes are rarely for sexual display, except at parties and nightclubs. They are class and cultural affiliation signals. During the day, women dress for other women, not for men, messages to say I'm on the same team as you.

But, judging by the comments here, I think that posters and announcements are unlikely to make much difference.

 

[Dai Corner]

There's not much from the women's perspective here!

Staring, touching and pressing are not sexual displays: I doubt that any couples could say that they met when the man touched up the woman on a tube train.

From women's perspective, staring, touching and pressing on public transport are displays of aggression, intimidation and entitlement in a confined public space. And yes, manspreading should be added to the list, it is another tool (pun intended) that men use to dominate in a confined space. Hands on shoulders and opening doors are subtler variants of the same thing: if you doubt this watch the body language of world leaders on TV news when they meet at political "summits".

Upskirting is different, being a form of voyeurism.

And clothes are rarely for sexual display, except at parties and nightclubs. They are class and cultural affiliation signals. During the day, women dress for other women, not for men, messages to say I'm on the same team as you.

But, judging by the comments here, I think that posters and announcements are unlikely to make much difference.

I still think women people re-learning how to take down others acting in an inappropriate or unwelcome way by means of a cutting remark, slap in the face or blow with a handbag would be more effective than poster campaigns.

 

[Turtle]

Well said @Mawkie

Seconded!

I still think women people re-learning how to take down others acting in an inappropriate or unwelcome way by means of a cutting remark, slap in the face or blow with a handbag would be more effective than poster campaigns.

Males, regrettably, are the perpetrators in the vast majority of these situations and your suggestion that women should react verbally, let alone physically, is unlikely to end well.

 

[Magdalia]

I still think women people re-learning how to take down others acting in an inappropriate or unwelcome way by means of a cutting remark, slap in the face or blow with a handbag would be more effective than poster campaigns.

Your suggested responses demonstrate that this is really about aggression not sex.

 

[Dai Corner]

Your suggested responses demonstrate that this is really about aggression not sex.

Those responses were very effective in the past.

What do you suggest the subject of unwanted attention should do? Point at one of the posters?

 

[stuu]

Well said Mawkie

 

[Magdalia]

Those responses were very effective in the past.

What do you suggest the subject of unwanted attention should do? Point at one of the posters?

The men are responsible, it is for them to alter their behaviour. And that includes other men not condoning or encouraging it.

And the idea that a woman could give a slap or a swing of the handbag on a crowded tube train is ridiculous.

The cutting remark is an interesting idea though. Margaret Attwood (author of the Handmaid's Tale) once said "men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them". Maybe a coded witty phrase, that women could shout out when they feel threatened, is a way forward.

 

[RT4038]

Those responses were very effective in the past.

What do you suggest the subject of unwanted attention should do? Point at one of the posters?

Those responses may well be effective, but I think that part of this campaign would be to show that this kind of behaviour (as detailed in post #7) from men is not ok even if woman do not react in this time honoured fashion. Yes, there will always be a line to cross, and this will differ slightly depending on the individual, but there are some things which are unacceptable, and always have been unacceptable (even in the gentlemanly chivalrous era) whether the woman slaps you etc or not.
Equally, there have always been men who have well crossed that line; all sorts of social changes in the interim and for various reasons now require this kind of campaign.

They could indeed point at one of the posters, they could respond in the time honoured fashion (with the danger of starting a fight), but they could also report the matter and, most likely via CCTV, get the perpetrator arrested and charged and all that entails.
We are not talking about behaviour between friends here.

 

[Dai Corner]

The men are responsible, it is for them to alter their behaviour. And that includes other men not condoning or encouraging it.

And the idea that a woman could give a slap or a swing of the handbag on a crowded tube train is ridiculous.

The cutting remark is an interesting idea though. Margaret Attwood (author of the Handmaid's Tale) once said "men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them". Maybe a coded witty phrase, that women could shout out when they feel threatened, is a way forward.

We can certainly agree on the last point. I remember being humiliated, or witnessing friends being humiliated, in such circumstances back in the day. It was very helpful in learning where the boundaries lay.

 

[deltic]

Those responses were very effective in the past.

What do you suggest the subject of unwanted attention should do? Point at one of the posters?

Were they - the vast majority of women have been subject to some form of sexual harassment in their lives, the vast majority of women did not respond by wacking the perpetrator across their face or coming up with some witty put down remark (that only happens in films). They will often have been told from an early age to ignore it, don't make eye contact, definitely don't say anything back and it was probably their fault for how they were dressed or having the audacity to being out on their own or late at night.

On the rail network the best response is to text BTP and if other people are present to call out the behaviour

 

[Dai Corner]

They could indeed point at one of the posters, they could respond in the time honoured fashion (with the danger of starting a fight), but they could also report the matter and, most likely via CCTV, get the perpetrator arrested and charged and all that entails.
We are not talking about behaviour between friends here.

I'm really talking about what can done there and then. Are the Police (particularly BT Police) going to have the resources to trawl through CCTV footage to identify alleged perpetrators?

 

[alxndr]

It is wrong to suggest that it is down to the victim to admonish the perpetrator (although they would be entitled in my eyes to do), as that puts the onus on them. It is not, it is on people not to cross boundaries and be aggressive or a creep.

Raising awareness and publishing a clear boundary can empower people to recognise and challenge this sort of behaviour rather than missing it (although the victim might be very aware) or turning a blind eye.

 

[RT4038]

I'm really talking about what can done there and then. Are the Police (particularly BT Police) going to have the resources to trawl through CCTV footage to identify alleged perpetrators?

On report, I am sure they would. Doesn't need much trawling if the time and place details are accurate.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

The sort of weirdo who thinks it acceptable to touch up women on trains is not going to be put off by an announcement any more than a terrorist will be deterred by an announcement saying it's not permitted to take a bomb on a train.

Another classic case of the railways telling passengers not to do something they had no intention of doing anyway!

 

[Mikey C]

There are actually 7 aspects to the full campaign (which is supported by TfL, BTP, MPs, Rail Delivery Group, and various women's groups.)

1.Cat Calling - Making unsolicited remarks of a sexual nature about someone

2.Exposing - Revealing intimate body parts

3.Cyber-flashing - Sending or showing sexual content without consent

4.Pressing - Rubbing against someone on purpose

5.Touching - Touching someone inappropriately

6.Staring - Intrusive staring of a sexual nature

7.Upskirting - Taking photos under someone's clothing

Obviously I wouldn't disagree with any of that, though not sure why number 2 needs to be mentioned, seeing that is an existing criminal offence anyway

 

[Mojo]

These posters were discussed in September last year and the thread eventually locked. We don’t need to go through the same arguments again please. See the original thread for more details

National Rail & British Transport Police campaign regarding sexual harassment on the Railway

I was on a train yesterday and was rather perplexed to see a notice on the display screen from National Rail and British Transport Police encouraging passengers to report people staring at them! I find it ridiculous. Staring doesn't harm anyone and also there could be endless reasons why someone...

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