Starting short: Potential problem?

[40875704]

Help needed.
Travelling with family on holiday in a group of six. Need to get from B to C which is fairly expensive. Son has bought advance tickets from A to C passing through, and stopping at B, which are ridiculously cheap in comparison. I believe if we use A to C tickets starting from B we will be guilty of shorting.
He will not have it from me that we could get into trouble and his mum who knows everything is of the same opinion. Three of us are in employment for which a criminal record would cause, at the very least disciplinary, action.
They are of the opinion that:
• we won’t get caught, six of us with a mountain of luggage are going to get noticed boarding.
• the ticket inspector ,if there is one, won’t be bothered.
• even if he is we can talk our way out of it pleading ignorance [they don’t understand the concept of strict liability/statutory offence.]
It just becomes an argument about how stupid railway ticketing is. Which of course it is.
Perhaps if they see it on here and some of you can confirm the pitfalls of this plan they might believe me.

 

[MikeWh]

Obviously we could advise best if A, B and C were named, but by the sounds of it you could definitely get into trouble. If you can't get them to see sense it may be wise to consider buying your own ticket.

 

[najaB]

Perhaps if they see it on here and some of you can confirm the pitfalls of this plan they might believe me.

The plan you have described certainly appears to be against the law.

Advance tickets specifically do not allow starting short. Train companies won't generally prosecute if there isn't a financial advantage (e.g. the A-C fare is the same as the B-C fare), but your case is one that they definitely would be interested in prosecuting if they found out as there is clear evidence of intent to avoid paying the correct fare.

This would be a breach of the Regulation of Railways Act § 5.3, a conviction for which would result in a fine of up to £1000 (each) and would appear on your criminal record.

As to the likelihood of detection: most train guards are very good at spotting the unusual, and if they had performed a ticket check between A and B, a party of six with tickets from A would stand out like a sore thumb.

In short, this is NOT a good idea.

 

[Gemz91]

If station "B" has barriers, you may never even make it to your train in the first instance

 

[graham11]

Thanks everyone for answering my query in such a nice way.

I half expected a sarcastic reply sneering at my ignorance ---- I was wrong.



Graham

 

[bb21]

Buy tickets for B-A (must be walk-on fares - (Super) Off-Peak or Anytime) to connect with your A-C tickets if you are that worried.

No one is going to insist in that case that you doubleback unnecessarily B-A then A-B. You are advised to buy these B-A tickets in advance.

Without knowing your A, B and C it is not possible to say much else.

 

[AlterEgo]

Help needed.
Travelling with family on holiday in a group of six. Need to get from B to C which is fairly expensive. Son has bought advance tickets from A to C passing through, and stopping at B, which are ridiculously cheap in comparison. I believe if we use A to C tickets starting from B we will be guilty of shorting.
He will not have it from me that we could get into trouble and his mum who knows everything is of the same opinion. Three of us are in employment for which a criminal record would cause, at the very least disciplinary, action.
They are of the opinion that:
• we won’t get caught, six of us with a mountain of luggage are going to get noticed boarding.
• the ticket inspector ,if there is one, won’t be bothered.
• even if he is we can talk our way out of it pleading ignorance [they don’t understand the concept of strict liability/statutory offence.]
It just becomes an argument about how stupid railway ticketing is. Which of course it is.
Perhaps if they see it on here and some of you can confirm the pitfalls of this plan they might believe me.

Starting short on an Advance ticket isn't likely to lead to a criminal record for you! You would likely be asked to pay the difference between the ticket you hold and the cheapest appropriate ticket which allows break of journey.

TOCs have also been specifically advised not to make such charges unless it is clear that you are doing so to blatantly avoid the fare.

It would be helpful if A B and C were named so we could advise properly.

 

[najaB]

Starting short on an Advance ticket isn't likely to lead to a criminal record for you! You would likely be asked to pay the difference between the ticket you hold and the cheapest appropriate ticket which allows break of journey.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Specifically because of this:

TOCs have also been specifically advised not to make such charges unless it is clear that you are doing so to blatantly avoid the fare.

This is a clear and blatant attempt to avoid paying the correct fare, rather than an innocent mistake. Hence the TOC would we well within their rights and ATOC/RDG best practice to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. Specifically because of this:
This is a clear and blatant attempt to avoid paying the correct fare, rather than an innocent mistake. Hence the TOC would we well within their rights and ATOC/RDG best practice to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.

Agreed, but it would be helpful if A B and C were named.

I've not come across a case of anyone being prosecuted for starting short on an Advance, though there are a few cases of people being charged up.

 

[najaB]

Agreed, but it would be helpful if A B and C were named.

Since the OP simply wants to know the worst that can happen it's probably best to stick to the general case, rather than figure out if there are specific loopholes which can be exploited.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Sounds very much like your wife and son want to turn the family into cap nip for people like Trasnport Investigations.

All depends where in the country your traveling and what TOC your with. Six with luggage is just to big to ignore/miss. It really will not make some Conductors day he/she wont be able to ignore it. At very best the Conductor if sympathetic to story/ dependent on how your party behave will charge you the appropriate overnight fare from A to B. At worst they'll charge you the appropriate overnight fare from A to C and take your details for potential prosecution for short faring.

There's about a 2% chance you'll get away with it and a 98% chance it will end up in a lot more £ being paid out.

 

[Merseysider]

Sounds very much like your wife and son want to turn the family into cap nip for people like Trasnport Investigations.

All depends where in the country your traveling and what TOC your with. Six with luggage is just to big to ignore/miss. It really will not make some Conductors day he/she wont be able to ignore it. At very best the Conductor if sympathetic to story/ dependent on how your party behave will charge you the appropriate overnight fare from A to B. At worst they'll charge you the appropriate overnight fare from A to C and take your details for potential prosecution for short faring.

There's about a 2% chance you'll get away with it and a 98% chance it will end up in a lot more £ being paid out.

What's an 'overnight fare'?

Are you referring to Anytime fares? If so, I would agree with you that this is what should be charged in cases of fare evasion. There is an argument that only an excess should be charged, but this will still be a large amount

It's a silly idea, and in simple terms, the risk:benefit ratio is pretty poor.

 

[yorkie]

Help needed.
Travelling with family on holiday in a group of six. Need to get from B to C which is fairly expensive. Son has bought advance tickets from A to C passing through, and stopping at B, which are ridiculously cheap in comparison. I believe if we use A to C tickets starting from B we will be guilty of shorting.
He will not have it from me that we could get into trouble and his mum who knows everything is of the same opinion. Three of us are in employment for which a criminal record would cause, at the very least disciplinary, action.
They are of the opinion that:
• we won’t get caught, six of us with a mountain of luggage are going to get noticed boarding.
• the ticket inspector ,if there is one, won’t be bothered.
• even if he is we can talk our way out of it pleading ignorance [they don’t understand the concept of strict liability/statutory offence.]
It just becomes an argument about how stupid railway ticketing is. Which of course it is.
Perhaps if they see it on here and some of you can confirm the pitfalls of this plan they might believe me.

I advise against doing anything that clearly breaches the conditions, however as others have said, in principle, purchasing a valid combination of fares that would allow the journey from your origin to destination, via the mystery start station for your Advance fares, may be the best solution.

You could ask staff for permission to not do the double-back; so far I've not yet heard of a case where a customer has asked the question and been compelled to double-back, but it could happen.

I have activated your private message (PM) facility; feel free to PM me the details of the locations if you do not wish to make it public.

 

[island]

Aside from all of the above, taking up seats at B that were reserved from A may well attract the attention of an attentive guard.

The above proposal would be a criminal offence of travelling on a train without paying the correct fare and with intent to avoid the payment thereof. This carries a fine of up to £1,000, up to 3 months inside (on a repeat offence), and a criminal record.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What's an 'overnight fare'?

Are you referring to Anytime fares? If so, I would agree with you that this is what should be charged in cases of fare evasion. There is an argument that only an excess should be charged, but this will still be a large amount

It's a silly idea, and in simple terms, the risk:benefit ratio is pretty poor.

The OP is going on holiday with luggage we can assume its not a day trip! As we don't know where from/to and time of day its going to be one of Anytime/Off Peak/Super Off Peak as appropriate. Remember we don't know they could be boarding at un staffed station with no ticket buying facilities.

Agree best not to risk it.

 

[robbeech]

Aside from all of the above, taking up seats at B that were reserved from A may well attract the attention of an attentive guard..

Especially if commotion has been caused as other people have sat in your seats assuming they weren't going to be used and you 6 pile in with your luggage and kick them out (even if it is done politely).
We have all seen a reservation from A to D that is empty at B so you sit in it as you travel to E. I'm sure many of us have then been turfed out at C as the person who reserved the seat from A to D gets on at C. I suppose it has never occurred to me that they might be on an advanced ticket, maybe if you start short the guard should use their discretion as to what to do (if anything) but at the very least you should forfeit your seat reservation.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Starting short at Preston instead of Lancaster has been in the News recently.

.............A ticket on the 08.38 service from Lancaster to London today, returning at 17.57, costs £93.20. But the journey on the same train, starting and ending from Preston, one stop closer to London, was priced at £320.50...................

Full story according to Blackpool Gazette http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/no-back-down-in-lancashire-fares-row-1-8381829
In this case an innocent person caught up in the row http://www.lep.co.uk/news/i-ve-neve...rongly-detained-in-train-ticket-row-1-8368722

 

[najaB]

Starting short at Preston instead of Lancaster has been in the News recently...

There was a very long thread about this. No need to bring it up again.

 

[40875704]

The Old Man was proven wrong, my boy offered the A to C tickets boarding at B, no problem no questions. However I did secretly buy 6 singles [STD ANYTIME validity on date shown] from B to C as insurance. £73.20 down the pan. Anyway I can cash these "unused" tickets in?
A, B & C all staffed stations. The whole family now think I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Merseysider]

Take away 6x £10 admin fee and you'll get a grand total of £13.20 back.

Morally wrong imo, given that they were, in effect, the only valid tickets held for the journey made so aren't exactly 'unused'.

 

[40875704]

Good point well made Merseysider. Maybe I should just bask in the sunshine of the moral highground. !!!

 

[telstarbox]

Show them this thread...

 

[gray1404]

The Old Man was proven wrong, my boy offered the A to C tickets boarding at B, no problem no questions. However I did secretly buy 6 singles [STD ANYTIME validity on date shown] from B to C as insurance. £73.20 down the pan. Anyway I can cash these "unused" tickets in?
A, B & C all staffed stations. The whole family now think I don't know what I'm talking about.

Which retailer or train company did you buy these tickets from?

 

[40875704]

Trans Pennine Express

 

[gray1404]

Trans Pennine Express

Although strictly speaking the train company may charge £10 per ticket, it is not unknown of (although uncommon) for them to only make one £10 charge if all the tickets where purchased together and all refunded together too. It might be worth a try.

I have had two TOCs only charge me one admin fee in these circumstances.