Station overrun procedure

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by MPotter, 21 Mar 2019.

  1. MPotter

    MPotter On Moderation

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    Why is it that the emergency brake is used if a train is in danger of overrunning a station platform? In my opinion it should be a full service brake application as there is no risk to safety of the line.
     
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  3. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    I had thought it was Full Service for station overruns and Emergency for potential SPADs. Though it in all probability differs TOC to TOC.
     
  4. Kneedown

    Kneedown Established Member

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    Because that is what Drivers are instructed to do. On a 15X unit the Emergency position position earths the train wires to eliminate the risk of a spurious electrical feed impairing braking performance.
     
  5. OpsWeb

    OpsWeb Member

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    If it's the difference between a safety of the line incident (which is what an overrun is classed as) or not, I would be using Emergency.
     
  6. Need2

    Need2 Member

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    Emergency brake can be used at anytime the driver feels it is required. Don't be lulled into the word 'emergency'
     
  7. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    It's valid to ask why it's a safety of the line incident. What's the hazard here?
     
  8. OpsWeb

    OpsWeb Member

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    Because that is what it is classed at by Rail Delivery Group (formerly ATOC) in their Good Practice Guides, RSSB Best Practice Guide and is specifically detailed on a "Transfer of Safety Critical Information" form between employers.

    I believe an overrun is classed as a safety incident, not due to the fact the train as overrun a platform, but that the train & Driver did not comply with the Rule Book (i.e. by not stopped) and was not under full control of the Driver.
     
  9. 12guard4

    12guard4 Member

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    If you need to stop and you're going to fast emergency every time. Not sure why you have this opinion?
     
  10. Puppetfinger

    Puppetfinger Member

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    What would happen after an event like this?

    I witnessed this very thing happen a few years ago at Ashchurch. It was an XC 170, and it finally stopped a good 200 metres past the end of the platform. After a short period of time, the driver changed ends and then drove back into the station where he changed ends again, and with station work done off we all went towards Birmingham.
     
  11. OpsWeb

    OpsWeb Member

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    There will be an investigation into the root cause. If the Driver is found to be at fault (i.e. not faulty brakes, low-adhesion or diagram error), the Driver will be placed on a "career development plan" or under another name which basically means they are assessed a few more times than normal for a period of around 3 months. The incident goes on the Drivers safety record which must be declared if they move between companies.

    Realistically, the Driver will keep their job and nothing else much changes.
     
  12. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    There is a risk.

    Because there is a risk.
     
  13. MPotter

    MPotter On Moderation

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    What is the risk then?
     
  14. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    What is the safety risk in this case?
     
  15. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    As already stated, the driver has made an error (assuming it isn't a brake failure or poor adhesion - and if it were it would obviously also be a risk) , and is not in full control of the train. If it was a red signal the driver hadn't stopped at, would you be considering that is not a safery risk?
     
  16. axlecounter

    axlecounter Member

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    If it was a red signal, but it wasn’t...
     
  17. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    Could you perhaps provide a list of what incidents are regarded as safety of the line, and which incidents aren't, then?
     
  18. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    The fact it says in some guidance that it is a safety issue is a reason for TOCs and indviiduals to treat it as such, but in itself doesn't explain why it is a safety issue.

    There's actually a contrary hazard here - treating overruns less stringently than SPADs might lead the driver adopting a different braking technique for station stops where the platform starter is off (or there isn't one) and thereby help to reinforce the significance of the platform starter being on.
     
  19. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    I would hazard a guess that the reason most overruns occur is because the driver forgot to stop. So changing braking technique won't help The moment they realise they panic and throw the anchors on
     
  20. TheEdge

    TheEdge Established Member

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    Well you'd reason wrong. Very few overruns are down to total forgetfulness. The vast majority are down to something like misjudging speed or braking ability or an adhesion issue. On plenty of stock an emergency application will brake harder than in full service so will sometimes save the situation. Also, as mentioned, the people who put money in our bank accounts every four weeks say use emergency, so we use emergency.
     
  21. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    Ok, then. Drivers don't forget. They just misread their diagrams.
     
  22. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    The overrun is a consequence, not a cause.

    A Driver would (typically) put the emergency brake because they think the train will overrun. When a train overruns a station and the Driver forgets; this typically results in a 'fail to call' It would be considered and overrun when some form of intervention has taken place.

    So let's consider the reasons why an overrun would occur.

    Adhesion - Probably high on the list of reasons for an overrun. I think the consequences of this is obvious but the Stonegate incident https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...wo-miles-because-of-leaves-on-the-line.38451/ has been discussed here. So use of emergency is fully justified.

    Fatigue - Potentially the cause of an overrun may be that the Driver has lost concentration through fatigue. Mistakes creep in as your fatigue increases. An overrun is a potential consequence. The RSSB is highly concerned about fatigue. https://www.rssb.co.uk/Pages/fatigue-and-alertness.aspx If you noticed you were affected and was about to be caught out with an overrun then use of emergency mitigates against further error. The Non Technical Skill (also a factor in an incident and risk management) "Decision Making and Action" would certainly justify a decision that is quick, and simple. Why spend time trying to make a decision on a brake step ? Drop it directly into emergency.

    Prevention - If I told you the speed I can hit a platform at, it might give you a few sleepless nights. In simplistic terms. By smashing it into emergency you may stop on the platform, rather than overrun. So use of emergency is very much justified here. If you can prevent something from happening then surely that is the best option.

    Mitigation - Following on from above, the length of the overrun is a factor. If you can limit the overrun to a minimal distance then you may be able to return back into the platform. In some cases it may be possible to SDO release or egress onto the platform.

    Passengers - In both scenarios above, there must be consideration for passengers. If you overshot a platform there WILL be a delay whilst that is resolved. During that delay there is a potential for passengers to egress. Passenger egress is a hot topic and the risk is obvious. Ergo the use of an emergency brake may both prevent/mitigate against an egress.

    Human factors - Why did the Driver fail to stop ? Was there something that caused a distraction ?, Something that was personally affecting the Driver ? Was the Driver fit to be driving ? An any case, what needs to happen is that the unit should be brought to a stand as quick as possible. Anything that extends the stopping point of the train will have an impact on the overall incident.

    Faults - As already discussed there may be an issue with the unit itself. Stonegate is another example of a major fault contributing to an incident. If you believe something is wrong then you need to act.

    Consequence(s) - If you do overrun, then you may be asked to go wrong road back into the station. If you have mitigated the distance of the overrun then the distance you have to go wrong road is reduced. There are risks associated with going wrong road.

    General risk - Why chance it ? Making a default decision to go into emergency has the least impact. Its a simple decision with little thought or action required. It mitigates against consequences. It is the quickest way to bring the unit to a stand. There is no 'what if' game to be played.

    Hope that helps.
     
  23. Val3ntine

    Val3ntine Member

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    This is just like saying a driver going past a red signal shouldn’t be counted as an incident because there are safety systems to stop the train anyway so nothing will have happened. (Yes not all signals have this)
    Or going too fast up to buffer stops, well the safety system stopped the train before a collision so it’s a non incident.

    If a driver’s going through a station at 90mph and someone goes to jump should the driver not use the emergency brake because they’ve hit them anyway? I mean why not just full service. In fact why even full service that’s pretty fierce as it is, a nice smooth low brake application will do :)

    The reality is there are criteria's set for what is an incident and what is not an incident, how serious an incident is compared to another, and mitigations for drivers to try and avoid each individual incidents.

    We could all live in harmony if we just kept things so simple lol
     
  24. DanDaDriver

    DanDaDriver Member

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    Remembering to stop but a last minute distraction leading to misjudging your final braking is more likely for an over-run.

    If you forget to stop then you’re unlikely to remember until it’s too late to even bother braking.
     
  25. Tom Quinne

    Tom Quinne Established Member

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    Beat me to it !
     
  26. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    In which case you're better off not putting the brake in and misreading your diagram instead
     
  27. Eccles1983

    Eccles1983 On Moderation

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    Which used to be the case for a while.

    Fail to calls were seen as a lesser problem than station over runs. So much so that you used to get "points" for incidents on certain TOC's. So if you realised too late that you weren't going to stop it has been know to take power and completely blow the station and put it down to a misread that a mistake.

    They knocked it on the head after a change of franchise, but it certainly happened.
     
  28. coxxy

    coxxy Member

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    This.

    Were not paid to make policy, but to follow it. Simply put if your not able to stop where your supposed to then its emergency brake as soon as you know you won't be able to stop.. and believe me sometimes it may be enough to stop you in time!
     
  29. Parham Wood

    Parham Wood Member

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    Nobody has mentioned the effect of an emergency brake on passengers especially if any are standing. Would this not throw standing passengers around therefore would be a safety issue, but not as great as passing a signal at danger of course when I can see that a driver would want to do all he/she could to stop in time or mitigate the distance past the red to avoid potential derailment or collision? I ask because I do not know what the effect of emergency braking is these days!

    If train is not slowing down as fast as desired due to greasy rails does emergency braking help or is it more likely to induce a skid?
     
  30. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    An emergency brake application does not throw people around anymore than a full service application. The worst part is when the train actually stops, as the driver cannot ease off with the brake during an emergency application
     
  31. DanDaDriver

    DanDaDriver Member

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    Just like if you stop out of course you probably will find you’re desperate for the toilet all of a sudden.....
     

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