Stock allocation GWR services

[greaterwest]

I should hope so too! The removal on the [1] in the heading of a timetable does not automatically declassify first class, so unless these schoolboys had first class tickets it's only correct they were "evicted".

You are wrong about this, class 2 trains on the North Downs Line do not have first class on them, this is shown in the advanced pathing information on Real Time Trains, but is also GWR policy now (and I believe it has been so since at least December)

 

[JN114]

You are wrong about this, class 2 trains on the North Downs Line do not have first class on them, this is shown in the advanced pathing information on Real Time Trains, but is also GWR policy now (and I believe it has been so since at least December)

And as previously said up thread, many of the class 2 work on the north downs are still operated by first class fitted 166s, for reasons again posted above.

As for GWR policy, what do you mean? As in advertising Class 2s as not conveying First Class? The reasons for that were in the post you've part-quoted.

RTT, again, is only a digital presentation of exactly the same data used to compile the paper timetable, or power NRE booking engine etc etc. If someone wants to provide some actual documentary evidence that categorically says First is automatically declassified if not advertised, I'll back down. Until then no other stance is defensible. Yes, most sensible guards won't Quibble over it on a route that doesn't regularly have First Class, and won't challenge people over it, but it isn't an automatic carte Blanche declassification if not advertised. As per CoC G 39 standard class ticket holders may only use first class accommodation with the permission of a duly authorised person - so my original point stands - the guard was within his grounds to evict the schoolboys referred to.

I don't want to take this thread off topic further - if anyone does actually come up with something concrete that does authorise standard class ticket holders to use first class when trains are advertised as standard only, I'd be very interested to hear from you by PM. Have looked into the subject extensively in the past, I can only wish you the best of luck.

To drag things back to the topic at hand:
Greenford services will also always produce a 2car 165, as will 2E90/2E92 Oxford - Worcester. These are down to short platforms and no SDO on turbos.

 

[Deepgreen]

I should hope so too! The removal on the [1] in the heading of a timetable does not automatically declassify first class, so unless these schoolboys had first class tickets it's only correct they were "evicted". The only right that the [1] enshrines the passenger with is an entitlement to compensation if first class is NOT provided on a service advertised to convey first class accommodation. I've no idea where the membership of this forum appears to have gotten its deluded impression that it becomes their right to sit in first class if such a facility isn't advertised, as I've never seen any documentation at a company or national level that even remotely suggests that is the case. Declassifying of first class lies SOLELY at the discretion of the guard. End of.

Due to the nature of the service, and particularly service recovery, it's easier if all N Downs diagrams are covered by 166s - and indeed many days you do only get 166s allocated to work there. Changing the class 2s to advertised as standard only gives the TSC options to put out a 3 car 165 on a 166 diagram if there is a shortage of 166s on the TCD, without fear of costing GWR a lot of money in compensation for non-provision of First Class accommodation.

I am afraid this is wrong. If a service is advertised as standard class only, no matter what rolling stock is provided, passengers may occupy any part of it. I have no idea where/if it is written down, but it has been standard accepted practice for as long as I can remember (36 years so far in the railways, and many more with an interest before that).

Countless examples occur every day, and perhaps the most frequent daily occurence is the use of Southern's 377/6 and 377/7s on their 'Metro' routes where first class accommodation is automatically de-classified.

Of course, it is possible that all railway staff (including the countless TTIs I have encountered on such workings) have been mis-applying any possible obscure written rule for the last several decades, but I very much doubt it.

BTW, the guard/schoolboys incident I referred to was followed (when the boys had moved) by my quietly mentioning the new non-first class status of the stopping service to the guard and him saying that he had not been told about it and that he would have to be aware in future, strongly suggesting that he, for one, would not be expecting standard class ticket holders to vacate first class in future! Of the very many guards I have encountered doing ticket checks on the route not one other has queried standard class ticket holders in first class.

 

[Siemens Staines]

From what I have seen, it is unusual to see a 165 on any North Downs train these days for reasons outlined above. Even the Shalford peak hour additional turn is usually a 166, although it is the diagram most likely to drop for a 165 because none of its trains are advertised to contain first class. There are some class 2 trains on this route that do have advertised first class, but in all cases they are class 2 trains that go to Gatwick (eg 2O57, 2V68, 2O47 & others). I would only rely on what is advertised directly by GWR i.e

https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/timetables/may-2016/east/GW1605.E06.A7.490102.00.Web.pdf

 

[Deepgreen]

From what I have seen, it is unusual to see a 165 on any North Downs train these days for reasons outlined above. Even the Shalford peak hour additional turn is usually a 166, although it is the diagram most likely to drop for a 165 because none of its trains are advertised to contain first class. There are some class 2 trains on this route that do have advertised first class, but in all cases they are class 2 trains that go to Gatwick (eg 2O57, 2V68, 2O47 & others). I would only rely on what is advertised directly by GWR i.e

https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/timetables/may-2016/east/GW1605.E06.A7.490102.00.Web.pdf

I would say, as a line resident, about one in ten days sees a 165 working.

 

[greaterwest]

From what I have seen, it is unusual to see a 165 on any North Downs train these days for reasons outlined above. Even the Shalford peak hour additional turn is usually a 166, although it is the diagram most likely to drop for a 165 because none of its trains are advertised to contain first class. There are some class 2 trains on this route that do have advertised first class, but in all cases they are class 2 trains that go to Gatwick (eg 2O57, 2V68, 2O47 & others). I would only rely on what is advertised directly by GWR i.e

https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/timetables/may-2016/east/GW1605.E06.A7.490102.00.Web.pdf

Those class 2 Gatwick trains are the exception rather than the rule, First Class does not apply on Redhill stopping services (which make up most of the class 2 services on this line)

EDIT
Also just looking at 2V67, I don't know why it deserves to be class 2 when the only extra stops it makes are at Ash and Farnborough North!

Look at 1O92, which only stops at Shalford and Gomshall additionally.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C41689/2016/06/09

 

[Starmill]

I should hope so too! The removal on the [1] in the heading of a timetable does not automatically declassify first class, so unless these schoolboys had first class tickets it's only correct they were "evicted". The only right that the [1] enshrines the passenger with is an entitlement to compensation if first class is NOT provided on a service advertised to convey first class accommodation. I've no idea where the membership of this forum appears to have gotten its deluded impression that it becomes their right to sit in first class if such a facility isn't advertised, as I've never seen any documentation at a company or national level that even remotely suggests that is the case. Declassifying of first class lies SOLELY at the discretion of the guard. End of.

Are you alright?

 

[FenMan]

Back in the real world, and as a frequent user of the NDL, it's extremely rare for any stopper outside the peaks to be loaded such that the availability, or not, of 1st Class accommodation becomes an issue - except on Sundays, but that's another issue.

But it's a different matter for the Gatwick trains, so I could understand why guards might discourage use of the (declassified) 1st Class on the stoppers, to save some passengers making what could be an expensive mistake when boarding a Gatwick train.

 

[Deepgreen]

Back in the real world, and as a frequent user of the NDL, it's extremely rare for any stopper outside the peaks to be loaded such that the availability, or not, of 1st Class accommodation becomes an issue - except on Sundays, but that's another issue.

But it's a different matter for the Gatwick trains, so I could understand why guards might discourage use of the (declassified) 1st Class on the stoppers, to save some passengers making what could be an expensive mistake when boarding a Gatwick train.

But they don't - only the one guard (who was unaware of the declassification). All others, without exception in my twice-daily experience, take no action.

 

[Wookiee]

I don't want to take this thread off topic further - if anyone does actually come up with something concrete that does authorise standard class ticket holders to use first class when trains are advertised as standard only, I'd be very interested to hear from you by PM. Have looked into the subject extensively in the past, I can only wish you the best of luck.

Here's something for you:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1179551&postcount=6

Particularly this bit:

First Class not advertised, but train has first class anyway
First Class is automatically declassified; anyone can travel in it even without a first class ticket.

 

[Flamingo]

Here's something for you:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1179549&postcount=4

Particularly this bit:

Do you want to double-check that link?

 

[Wookiee]

Do you want to double-check that link?

Aaarghhhh!

 

[JN114]

Here's something for you:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1179551&postcount=6

Particularly this bit:

No, an uncited post on an Internet forum is not documentary evidence that First Class is automatically declassified - indeed that very post - the forums very own fares advice section - was exactly what I was referring to with my "deluded impression" remark.

I've been avoiding replying to this thread as all this is completely off topic, but to answer the many counter replies since I last did - There is nothing in the CoC, any fares manual or briefs available publicly or internally or any other documentation that confirms this arrangement - and believe me I've looked very thoroughly. Yes, many guards are fine with it in cases where it happens regularly - the SWT 158 hire to GWR for example - but that is still entirely at their discretion, unwritten rules cannot be relied upon and certainly should not be bandied round as some kind of national policy.

If anyone wants to PM me (PM so we don't go any further off topic, please) with some **actual** evidence that such an automatic declassification exists in writing in an official industry document then yes, I will of course back down and eat humble pie etc... Until then as far as I'm concerned CoC G 39 applies, and I'll be speaking with our fares people over the road about what their interpretation and expectations of traincrew are.

 

[Deepgreen]

No, an uncited post on an Internet forum is not documentary evidence that First Class is automatically declassified - indeed that very post - the forums very own fares advice section - was exactly what I was referring to with my "deluded impression" remark.

I've been avoiding replying to this thread as all this is completely off topic, but to answer the many counter replies since I last did - There is nothing in the CoC, any fares manual or briefs available publicly or internally or any other documentation that confirms this arrangement - and believe me I've looked very thoroughly. Yes, many guards are fine with it in cases where it happens regularly - the SWT 158 hire to GWR for example - but that is still entirely at their discretion, unwritten rules cannot be relied upon and certainly should not be bandied round as some kind of national policy.

If anyone wants to PM me (PM so we don't go any further off topic, please) with some **actual** evidence that such an automatic declassification exists in writing in an official industry document then yes, I will of course back down and eat humble pie etc... Until then as far as I'm concerned CoC G 39 applies, and I'll be speaking with our fares people over the road about what their interpretation and expectations of traincrew are.

From where? Although somewhat off topic (but not entirely) I don't suppose it matters anyway, because for the last 45 years or more it has not been an issue as I have never once been challenged on the issue on any train, and I have always opted for first class on trains that are not scheduled to carry it, whether I happen to have a first class ticket or not. If there isn't a definitive written policy either way, maybe there should be, but I imagine those "over the road" (whatever that means and whoever they are) will have more important things to do.

On a practical note, I imagine the theoretical result of an empty first class section on what will otherwise probably be a crowded train will be pointless to set enforcement rules for, as no fares income is being missed on a standard class only working, and no first class ticket holders are being inconvenienced.

By the way, don't think of it as "backing down" or "eating humble pie" - you're probably right about the non-existence of written rules on the issue, but it's a discussion forum and we must try to move away from the argumentative tone that seems to pervade it.

 

[455driver]

Are you alright?

Just another one who likes to state his (incorrect) opinion as fact, there are loads of them on here again, hence me posting very little since my ban finished.

For clarification, if a service is stated in the timetable as Standard class only then it doesnt matter what stock turns up, the whole train is Standard class.

Yours faithfully an ex Guard!

 

[Deepgreen]

Just another one who likes to state his (incorrect) opinion as fact, there are loads of them on here again, hence me posting very little since my ban finished.

For clarification, if a service is stated in the timetable as Standard class only then it doesnt matter what stock turns up, the whole train is Standard class.

Yours faithfully an ex Guard!

I believe you are right, and I have always treated it as such, but the poster's point, albeit somewhat laboured, was that this 'rule' doesn't seem to be written down anywhere, which does seem to be something of an omission in the 'rules'/conditions of carriage.

 

[Flamingo]

It is not something I have ever heard mentioned outside of this forum.

 

[JN114]

Returning to the topic at hand - barring any unexpected circumstances overnight there should be a rare treat for those on the Marlow line in the morning....

 

[Starmill]

It is not something I have ever heard mentioned outside of this forum.

I've taken advantage of it countless times on ScotRail, must be 20 or more. There has never been a word said about it, other than me saying "Oh, there's no First Class on this one, is there?" to the guard. There was even a Scotsman article about it. So in certain corners of the country at least it is everyday knowledge.

When East Midlands Trains ran a 222 on a Crewe - Derby service that I was on once there was even a scrolling message on the screen that said that passengers could use standard tickets in any part of the train.

 

[FGW_DID]

So after all this, we seem to have established that:

If a service is advertised as NOT having first class, then no matter if the rolling stock that pitches up does have a 1st class seating area, then it is declassified;

BUT

this derogation doesn't actually appear to be written in any formal publication!

 

[greaterwest]

So after all this, we seem to have established that:

If a service is advertised as NOT having first class, then no matter if the rolling stock that pitches up does have a 1st class seating area, then it is declassified;

BUT

this derogation doesn't actually appear to be written in any formal publication!

Indeed, I frequently see people standing in the vestibule outside of an empty first class compartment of the networkers on the (class 2 services on the) North Downs line because there are no standard class seats left.

 

[JonathanH]

Returning to the topic at hand - barring any unexpected circumstances overnight there should be a rare treat for those on the Marlow line in the morning....

What was the said rare treat?

 

[Deepgreen]

Returning to the topic at hand - barring any unexpected circumstances overnight there should be a rare treat for those on the Marlow line in the morning....

...and?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Greenford services will also always produce a 2car 165, as will 2E90/2E92 Oxford - Worcester. These are down to short platforms and no SDO on turbos.

"Will always" maybe, but not "do always". I've seen the Oxfordshire Halts service turn up a 3-coach Turbo a couple of times: once it just missed out Finstock and Combe, the other time the guard simply requested that passengers for those stations (both of them...) use the front two coaches. Highly out of order, no doubt!

 

[Rich McLean]

"Will always" maybe, but not "do always". I've seen the Oxfordshire Halts service turn up a 3-coach Turbo a couple of times: once it just missed out Finstock and Combe, the other time the guard simply requested that passengers for those stations (both of them...) use the front two coaches. Highly out of order, no doubt!

Doors on the rear coach can be locally locked out of use. So as long as the guard ensured that was the case, then put them back into use again after those station calls, then there shouldn't be any problems.

However I would be surprised if the Guard allowed for all doors to be opened (which are driver controlled) and would be even more surprised if a driver opened them without checking with the guard that they were locally locked out of use.

 

[JonathanH]

Returning to the topic at hand - barring any unexpected circumstances overnight there should be a rare treat for those on the Marlow line in the morning....

What was the said rare treat?

...and?

166 operating as a 2-car (and therefore the first visit of a Green train to Marlow) - my sister reported a green train on a Marlow service.

 

[Siemens Staines]

166 operating as a 2-car (and therefore the first visit of a Green train to Marlow) - my sister reported a green train on a Marlow service.

166216 with no centre car. My apologies, I posted that information to the Marlow thread of this forum instead of to this one.

 

[Deepgreen]

166 operating as a 2-car (and therefore the first visit of a Green train to Marlow) - my sister reported a green train on a Marlow service.

What an anti-climax!

 

[Parallel]

I used GWR Gatwick Airport terminators the past week, both were 166s however the time before, there was a GWR 165 sitting at platform 1 so it must happen occasionally. That same day, a 166 was running the Basingstoke shuttles!

Last Saturday, just 153318 reportedly ran from Warminster to Worcester Foregate Street alone due to the planned train having broken down at Westbury. The inbound journey from Westbury to Southampton was cancelled, as was the 08:27 from Southampton, but the 153 restarted at Warminster. I presume it was all Westbury had to spare! I did notice later in the day on 153318's return from Worcester to Weymouth that it had a 150/1 bolted to the back by the time it arrived at Trowbridge (probably added at Bristol).

 

[PHILIPE]

I used GWR Gatwick Airport terminators the past week, both were 166s however the time before, there was a GWR 165 sitting at platform 1 so it must happen occasionally. That same day, a 166 was running the Basingstoke shuttles!

Last Saturday, just 153318 reportedly ran from Warminster to Worcester Foregate Street alone due to the planned train having broken down at Westbury. The inbound journey from Westbury to Southampton was cancelled, as was the 08:27 from Southampton, but the 153 restarted at Warminster. I presume it was all Westbury had to spare! I did notice later in the day on 153318's return from Worcester to Weymouth that it had a 150/1 bolted to the back by the time it arrived at Trowbridge (probably added at Bristol).

It's booked to attach a 150 at Bristol on Summer Saturdays more for the journey back from Weymouth so was then formed 3 coaches lieu of 4.