Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?

[Skymonster]

Moderator note: split from

Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

Note that the Rail Minister used the word 'should' in other words there will be a variety of reasons this will not happen but of course it was never going to happen in the first place. Mr O'Brian should know better than believe was he was told without going to other sources first who know more...

www.railforums.co.uk

Recent rumour control (and I emphasise RUMOUR, albeit from “inside”)…

• First 222s to leave in December for full refurb prior to transfer to… [Scotrail]
• First 810 handed over in July / August for crew training but not available in sufficient quantity to cover timetable in December when 222s start to go

Big question then: what stands in to cover the IC timetable during the transition if this happens? Answers on a postcard please, but recent discussion might be illuminating!

What a wacky world if true…

 

[tram21]

Recent rumour control (and I emphasise RUMOUR, albeit from “inside”)…

• First 222s to leave in December for full refurb prior to transfer to… [Scotrail]
• First 810 handed over in July / August for crew training but not available in sufficient quantity to cover timetable in December when 222s start to go

Big question then: what stands in to cover the IC timetable during the transition if this happens? Answers on a postcard please, but recent discussion might be illuminating!

What a wacky world if true…

If true I think that requires a separate thread! Would be an interesting discussion though!

 

[STINT47]

Recent rumour control (and I emphasise RUMOUR, albeit from “inside”)…

• First 222s to leave in December for full refurb prior to transfer to… [Scotrail]
• First 810 handed over in July / August for crew training but not available in sufficient quantity to cover timetable in December when 222s start to go

Big question then: what stands in to cover the IC timetable during the transition if this happens? Answers on a postcard please, but recent discussion might be illuminating!

What a wacky world if true…

If the Meridians start to leave before the new trains arrive then a potential option is to reduce the service to Nottingham and Sheffield to hourly for a limited time.

 

[Nottingham59]

what stands in to cover the IC timetable during the transition if this happens?

Presumably the 222s will be refurbished one at a time on some sort of sequential production line. So I assume the 222s could be released for refurbishment one at a time, whenever the next 810 arrives. It says upthread that 13 810s have been produced already, so I'd have thought there would be plenty of buffer stock in the pipeline.

 

[43096]

If the Meridians start to leave before the new trains arrive then a potential option is to reduce the service to Nottingham and Sheffield to hourly for a limited time.

Or take on the four 180s that are off-lease.

 

[Skymonster]

If the Meridians start to leave before the new trains arrive then a potential option is to reduce the service to Nottingham and Sheffield to hourly for a limited time.

…or deploy some other vehicles on the services?!

 

[Trainman40083]

…or deploy some other vehicles on the services?!

Of which are would appear to be none. But even if there was, think of all the training that would be required, just to cover trains for a few months.

 

[Nottingham59]

How intertwined are the diagrams for units? Do they all go to both Sheffield and Nottingham in the course of a day?

And what about staff rotas? Is it feasible to match stock diagrams with staff rotas, so that you don't need to train all staff on the 810s before introducing just a few of them into service?

And how easy is it to rejig diagrams if necessary? For instance, would it be feasible to limit 810s to Nottingham services to start with, and concentrate staff training for those?

 

[50002Superb]

…or deploy some other vehicles on the services?!

I assume that they will have to work a minimum speed on certain sections?

That would limit any speculation?

You also have to rule out any that runs on electric?

 

[Bald Rick]

And how easy is it to rejig diagrams if necessary?

That’s what will happen. The diagrams are pretty complex now, AIUI almost most units have some form of join / split / multiple running through the weekday diagrams, and therefore new diagrams are required to enable the 810s to stand alone during the early part of introduction.

 

[Yew]

If the Meridians start to leave before the new trains arrive then a potential option is to reduce the service to Nottingham and Sheffield to hourly for a limited time.

They're full and standing as they are - never mind with a reduced service

 

[QSK19]

Recent rumour control (and I emphasise RUMOUR, albeit from “inside”)…

• First 222s to leave in December for full refurb prior to transfer to… [Scotrail]
• First 810 handed over in July / August for crew training but not available in sufficient quantity to cover timetable in December when 222s start to go

Big question then: what stands in to cover the IC timetable during the transition if this happens? Answers on a postcard please, but recent discussion might be illuminating!

What a wacky world if true…

Indeed; but as I’ve said before, let’s only believe it when we see it!

As for what covers the IC timetable, presumably the ex-EMR 180s could be called on? They’re available (AFAIK) and EMR staff already trained on them.

 

[Aspen90]

Recent rumour control (and I emphasise RUMOUR, albeit from “inside”)…

• First 222s to leave in December for full refurb prior to transfer to… [Jockrail]
• First 810 handed over in July / August for crew training but not available in sufficient quantity to cover timetable in December when 222s start to go

Big question then: what stands in to cover the IC timetable during the transition if this happens? Answers on a postcard please, but recent discussion might be illuminating!

What a wacky world if true…

A handful of 222’s will be going before December and its panic stations! 170’s are being planned to plug the gaps.

 

[Mugby]

A handful of 222’s will be going before December and its panic stations! 170’s are being planned to plug the gaps.

I would rather believe that than 180s being returned. Much as I enjoyed riding on them, I just can't imagine 180s coming back again.

 

[liamf656]

A handful of 222’s will be going before December and its panic stations! 170’s are being planned to plug the gaps.

I have also heard the 170 rumour flying around, but I really don't see it. There aren't enough units unless they short form the Liverpool services, the Train Managers will need training and they'll pick up delays as they're not 125mph trains (acceleration may be different however)

As for the diagrams, they're not massively complex. There are already 5 "810 ready" diagrams that don't involve splitting and joining, and more with a couple of slight changes here and there

 

[baz962]

Indeed; but as I’ve said before, let’s only believe it when we see it!

As for what covers the IC timetable, presumably the ex-EMR 180s could be called on? They’re available (AFAIK) and EMR staff already trained on them.

London drivers don't sign or are trained on those.

 

[py_megapixel]

For an absolute pie-in-the-sky idea that I'm sure won't happen, but it's fun to speculate anyway... what became of the IC125 sets that Cross Country had modified with sliding doors? Have they been scrapped yet?

 

[LowLevel]

Nobody signs 180s at EMR anymore, by the time May comes around it will have been 2 years since they left and they'll be off all the traction cards (EMR remove defunct traction at the next biannual rules).

170s instead has previous form - Derby "local link" drivers (do both mainline and regional work) sign them and the usual method when they've been used previously is just to stick a Regional senior conductor on them as a traction conductor for the Intercity train manager. It's a 3 day course otherwise for guard traction training.

The main problem with the 170s is their hideous unreliability and the habit of the 3 car sets in particular to be left stranded with engine faults in one of the end coaches and no headlights/tail lights.

In theory there's more than enough units, in practice there's already constant short forms due to failed trains.

 

[duffield]

They're full and standing as they are - never mind with a reduced service

Nonetheless, this is what EMR resorts to during (e.g.) certain engineering works, such as when Corby diversions are needed, and sometimes when other disruptions occur, so sadly I suspect this would be a likely option, however:

Possible mitigation I can see if we're talking about a case where some 810's are in service but more 222s have been withdrawn:

• The 810's have significantly greater capacity so allocating them to the busiest services would help.
• I understand there are to be four more 810s than 222s so the final 810s should not need to be delivered before the last 222s go.
• Depending on the scale of the deficiencies, cutting one Sheffield service per hour back to Derby might allow 2tph to Derby to be maintained, with the possibility of fitting in a 170 or other suitable service in the unused paths between Sheffield and Derby.
• Similarly, one of the Nottingham services could be cut back to (say) East Midlands parkway instead of being removed, with a shuttle service to/from Nottingham connecting and using the path (I've said East Midlands rather than say Leicester or Loughborough since you can potentially run a very quick shuttle service from there and there are two platforms on the slow lines).

Of course the last two options would need a few 170 or other suitable units to be taken from elsewhere, it would all be a matter of which services get priority, and there's a question of available train crew with route and traction knowledge. None of this is ideal, and is heavily depends on the size of the unit deficiency it any.

 

[Trainman40083]

They're full and standing as they are - never mind with a reduced service

That is easily solved. They put the fares up, get rid of advance tickets etc, to dampen demand...just like British Rail used to.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

For an absolute pie-in-the-sky idea that I'm sure won't happen, but it's fun to speculate anyway... what became of the IC125 sets that Cross Country had modified with sliding doors? Have they been scrapped yet?

Five of the power cars are now leased to Colas and I believe the others have been exported. Of the Mk3s, some scrapped, some abroad, and some sold to Romic. Basically, this is a non-starter.

 

[Iskra]

Are there still a few spare 221’s knocking about?

 

[Trainman40083]

Are there still a few spare 221’s knocking about?

But you can't run a 221 and a 222 in the same train. Probably many detailed differences between them too.

 

[Iskra]

But you can't run a 221 and a 222 in the same train. Probably many detailed differences between them too.

It doesn’t stop them running single 222 sets.

 

[JonathanH]

I understand there are to be four more 810s than 222s so the final 810s should not need to be delivered before the last 222s go.

Six more 810s, but four of the 222s have seven coaches instead of five, so effectively the uplift is only two units.

 

[LowLevel]

Six more 810s, but four of the 222s have seven coaches instead of five, so effectively the uplift is only two units.

The 7 cars are irrelevant, in practice they're grossly space inefficient with an excess of first class coaches and a 5 car 810 has more standard class seats than one of the 7 car 222s.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I could see the Melton/Oakham<–>St Pancras service being dropped. It's not exactly a heavy loader and Corby already has the 360s.

 

[43096]

For an absolute pie-in-the-sky idea that I'm sure won't happen, but it's fun to speculate anyway... what became of the IC125 sets that Cross Country had modified with sliding doors? Have they been scrapped yet?

All either scrapped or sold. Those sold are either exported to Mexico or are at Mid-Norfolk Railway pending developments.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Thinking about what happened with other cascades, presumably the actual answer is that any delays to the 810 introduction simply delay the release of 222s to Scotrail.
Haven't there been situations where trains have moved - on paper - to a new TOC only to be immediately subleased back to the previous TOC because the replacements weren't ready.

Back to the exam question:

what stands in to cover the IC timetable during the transition if this happens?

A combination of buses, ticket acceptance on other TOC, and nothing.

 

[Anonymous10]

Thinking about what happened with other cascades, presumably the actual answer is that any delays to the 810 introduction simply delay the release of 222s to Scotrail.
Haven't there been situations where trains have moved - on paper - to a new TOC only to be immediately subleased back to the previous TOC because the replacements weren't ready.

Back to the exam question:

A combination of buses, ticket acceptance on other TOC, and nothing.

The tfw class 170s stayed on due to a lack of stock for example.