Study to consider Borders Railway extension

[DarloRich]

Clearly projects require some political will for them to happen. HS1 and Crossrail wouldn't have happened without it.

You don't seem to understand the concept of limited resources. The problem is it's not just your pet project that would go ahead if we were to approve projects by your reckoning. Pretty much every project thought of in the country would be given the go ahead: Plymouth-Okehampton-Exeter, Aberystwyth-Carmarthen, Harrogate-Ripon, etc etc etc. You would end up deciding to build 1000s of miles of railway to serve relative minor flows. Whilst an individual project may not be that expensive, the total sum of all the rail projects in the country that enthusiasts are talking about would be truly vast. They would completely swamp the technical resources we have available to deliver them, and would have to be prioritised somehow. The only rational way of doing so would be some sort of value for money exercise, in which case you end up right where we started.

you have responded in a much more polite fashion than i am prepared to do. I await the specious "lets use HS2 money" argument next.................

 

[mcmad]

I've said this before but we should really have a sub-forum where people can get their crayons out and suggest wishlists without having to worry about some of the practicalities that those with Industry experience have to deal with.

Wheres that like button when you need it.

 

[edwin_m]

Perhaps someone on here would like to try crowdfunding a new railway? 100,000 contributors at £10 each would probably buy a reasonable design, then you just have to find about 50 million more contributors to build it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps someone on here would like to try crowdfunding a new railway? 100,000 contributors at £10 each would probably buy a reasonable design, then you just have to find about 50 million more contributors to build it.

A feasibility development and outline design sufficient to get you into (but not through) the necessary consents process will be around 3% of the total cost. Double that to get through consents, and same again to do the detailed design necessary before a spade goes in the ground.

Those 100,000 contributors are going to need to stump up about £150 each...

 

[dcsprior]

Do you disagree that the British taxpayer is the source of money and that we effectively can't say no ?

Pretty sure that rail is a devolved area, so it'd be the Scottish taxpayer, rather than the British...

...unless it's a scheme with significant national impact, as HS2 is being treated (and therefore not generating Barnett consequential funding for the devolved nations), which it clearly wouldn't be.

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

 

[Chester1]

Posted in wrong thread! Please delete.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Because of short sighted single tracking in the station

In all seriousness it could be Gorebridge but its single track there so you wouldn't want to reverse in the platform. South of the station you get straight into the climb to Falahill and it would be hard to find the flat section needed for a reversing siding.

Redheugh by contrast is a flat area, plenty room for a 3 platform station and a desired location for a new station to serve proposed housing development anyway.

The track at Gorebridge is level for about 500 yards, but 1:57 from the south end of the platform. At Redheugh there is a short section about 300 yards or so in length of 1:87 but it is 1:78 to the north of this and 1:49 to the south. Hardly a flat area.
Gradient markers etc as built can be found here.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

This was just on the ITV Border Website:

http://www.itv.com/news/border/2017-05-30/new-report-details-benefits-of-borders-railway-extension/

A new report detailing the advantages of extending the Borders Railway route has been published by a group of campaigners.

Campaign for Borders Rail (CBR) say suggestions in the report, called the Summary Case for a New Cross-Border Rail Link, could improve the service, operating in Galashiels and Tweedbank.

They say a route extension to Carlisle, through Hawick, would provide a strategic new link to the national network.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This was just on the ITV Border Website:

http://www.itv.com/news/border/2017-05-30/new-report-details-benefits-of-borders-railway-extension/

If one could conjoin two aspirational fantasy project threads well known on this website together with existing heavy rail infrastructure taking the centre conjoining section, you could have both the Border Railways extension and the reopening of the Aberystwyth to Carmarthen line as an integral Scotland/England/Wales line...

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

If one could conjoin two aspirational fantasy project threads well known on this website together with existing heavy rail infrastructure taking the centre conjoining section, you could have both the Border Railways extension and the reopening of the Aberystwyth to Carmarthen line as an integral Scotland/England/Wales line...

Well the original Aberystwyth-Carmarthen line was built by the 'positive forward-thinking' Manchester & Milford Railway so there's historical precedent...

Perhaps Crossrail 2 should be renamed the Weymouth-Skegness Metro?

 

[JohnR]

This was just on the ITV Border Website:

http://www.itv.com/news/border/2017-05-30/new-report-details-benefits-of-borders-railway-extension/

They've priced the full extension at £644m (2012 prices). However, one of the maps shows what a lack of population there is south of Hawick, and although they say part of the case is use during diversions, there is nothing saying how many diversions would be likely to use it, nor what the financial benefits of that would be.

I'd like to see a wider study done. I think the case for an extension to Hawick is strong - say £200m. But then what could be done with the other £440m - perhaps reopening to Penicuik/Peebles? Would a link from the Borders Railway to the ECML at Berwick be better? Or spending some on doubling the existing railway and speeding up journey times?

In short, if you had £650m to spend on sustainable Borders public transport projects - what would you spend it on? What would give the best bang for the buck? Maybe a full restoration would be for the best, but I'd like to see that proven.

 

[The Planner]

Then they already know they are clutching at straws if they are claiming a diversionary route is a part of the business case. As a planned diversion you may get it possibly 4 or 5 times a year over Xmas, Easter and a couple of bank holidays if we need to go in and do something north of Carlisle. However, if we did need to do that then the operators would be turning around and saying why are you going in that many times and do the work in one big hit.

 

[D869]

From Hawick northwards the railway should never have been closed.
From Hawick southwards the railway should never have been opened.

 

[och aye]

From Hawick northwards the railway should never have been closed.
From Hawick southwards the railway should never have been opened.

I agree with your sentence. However I would say its a little unfair to say the section South of Hawick should never have been opened. After all this was back in the days before the motor car or aeroplane had even been invented!

 

[edwin_m]

I agree with your sentence. However I would say its a little unfair to say the section South of Hawick should never have been opened. After all this was back in the days before the motor car or aeroplane had even been invented!

I doubt it was opened because of the intermediate patronage - probably more an empire building exercise by the NBR to reach Carlisle and tap into the connecting traffic down the west side of England. That rationale largely disappeared with the grouping (since the LMS controlled all onward routes except to Newcastle which the LNER could access by other routes anyway) and certainly was non-existent after nationalisation.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

News & Star from Carlisle has this today.

Political pressure is growing to extend a reopened railway line to Carlisle.

A motion has been put to a council asking it to back the extension, which supporters believe could have significant financial spin-offs.

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/P...lisle-747541e5-1c75-426d-9070-008a0df22e22-ds

 

[47802]

News & Star from Carlisle has this today.



http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/P...lisle-747541e5-1c75-426d-9070-008a0df22e22-ds

And how much would it cost to extend to Carlisle with benefit to the small communities mentioned let alone the cost to extend to Hawick, dream on.

To be honest I get really hacked off with some of these so called pressure groups who seem to think the country should spend vast amounts of money reinstating virtually every railway line that was closed when the money could likely be better spent elsewhere.

Plus how many people really use the Borders Railway rather than a trip as a Rail Fan or novelty factor of a newly reopened line I have been on it twice for the latter reason but I'm unlikely to go on it again anytime soon.

 

[JohnR]

For the 70 miles to Carlisle, you are talking of at least £700 million (at 2012 prices) based on the costs of the line to Tweedbank. So in 2017 terms, you are looking at closer to £800 million. Add in the extra money you will need to spend on the existing section to upgrade the double track sections etc...?

If I had £800 million+ to spend, there are plenty of other transport projects which could better justify that money - albeit that I would think that extension to Hawick would probably make a reasonable business case.

 

[backontrack]

Could you justify Carlisle-Longtown-Canonbie-Langholm?

 

[Altnabreac]

Could you justify Carlisle-Longtown-Canonbie-Langholm?

What on earth would be the point? Linking tiny villages to a small city with little in commuting will not come even close to making a business case.

 

[47271]

This is my favourite bit of the story, a quote from Cllr Davie Paterson, the proposer of the motion at Scottish Borders Council:

"I've spoken to people who have said that the Borders Railway is getting more passengers than it was first thought and I only think that connecting it to Carlisle will improve on that."

Who needs boring feasibility studies, or even facts, when you can go on thorough diligence like that?

 

[daodao]

This is my favourite bit of the story, a quote from Cllr Davie Paterson, the proposer of the motion at Scottish Borders Council:



Who needs boring feasibility studies, or even facts, when you can go on thorough diligence like that?

Rail should focus on what it does best:

• high demand interurban passenger services
• commuter passenger services in major conurbations
• bulk freight

Rural rail services, where roads are not congested, are not viable. Carlisle-Hawick falls into this category. Tweedbank-Edinburgh is a commuter route into a major conurbation.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Rail should focus on what it does best:

• high demand interurban passenger services
• commuter passenger services in major conurbations
• bulk freight

Rural rail services, where roads are not congested, are not viable. Carlisle-Hawick falls into this category. Tweedbank-Edinburgh is a commuter route into a major conurbation.

The "rip roaring success" of the Borders line with one million passengers from a half hourly service always raises a smile here in Mid Wales where the Cambrian Mainline manages one million passengers a year with just 12 trains a day and without the benefit of commuters into a big city at one end.

 

[The Ham]

Rail should focus on what it does best:

• high demand interurban passenger services
• commuter passenger services in major conurbations
• bulk freight

Rural rail services, where roads are not congested, are not viable. Carlisle-Hawick falls into this category. Tweedbank-Edinburgh is a commuter route into a major conurbation.

Which is also the same problem when it comes to those who call for an equal share of rail spending per person (population) ignoring how spread out some of that population is, how difficult it is for that population to even get to a railway station (existing or proposed) and how few people currently use the railways in those areas.

 

[70014IronDuke]

This is my favourite bit of the story, a quote from Cllr Davie Paterson, the proposer of the motion at Scottish Borders Council:

Who needs boring feasibility studies, or even facts, when you can go on thorough diligence like that?

This is really modern local journalism at is deplorable worst.* I mean to say, there is not one sentence even casting doubt on the idea, let alone a decent paragraph or two based on obvious questions as to the cost or viability of any such project. They show a photo of Newcastleton station from the year dot with what looks like three folk on the platform, at least one of whom looks like staff - could be construed as indicating why the line closed in the first place, I suppose.

This website carries an appeal for funds based on this claim.

Quality journalism costs money and in today's digital world - where many websites mislead you with fake news - it's important for local newspapers like ours to invest in local journalists who care about reporting accurately.

One can only assume they haven't had much in the way of volunteer contributions.
* OK, it could be worse. It's not about vicar found in bed with three nymphs.

 

[BigCj34]

For this reason there ought to be better bus and rail integration. Being able to buy a through ticket say from Hawick to Lancaster with the first part on a bus should be more widely available. The A7 road is good enough for a transport service in the area.

The same can be said for other parts of the rail network that have significant gaps, are too sparsely populates for a line reopening, but already have a bus service of sorts.

 

[TommyD]

If money was no object and there was a proper call for this I wouldn't even think about reinstating the old track but push through with a brand new alignment. Too many railways failed because they meandered around following the terrain and consequently were too slow to hold onto traffic or face any future road competition. There's no point in repeating these past mistakes. Hence it would need megabucks to make this project worthwhile.

 

[railjock]

Rail should focus on what it does best:

• high demand interurban passenger services
• commuter passenger services in major conurbations
• bulk freight

Rural rail services, where roads are not congested, are not viable. Carlisle-Hawick falls into this category. Tweedbank-Edinburgh is a commuter route into a major conurbation.

But can Hawick to Edinburgh count as a viable commuter route?

 

[daodao]

But can Hawick to Edinburgh count as a viable commuter route?

Maybe, maybe not - it is some distance.

My original point avoided this question because I don't know the answer, not having any connection with the Scottish Borders. Others may be better placed to speculate.

I am fairly sure that Hawick-Carlisle wouldn't be viable.

 

[daodao]

The "rip roaring success" of the Borders line with one million passengers from a half hourly service always raises a smile here in Mid Wales where the Cambrian Mainline manages one million passengers a year with just 12 trains a day and without the benefit of commuters into a big city at one end.

The Cambrian mainline is a significant interurban route terminating in a university seaside town and provides the only rail access to much of mid Wales. Additional traffic is generated via the connection to the Cambrian Coast line at Machynlleth/Cyffordd Dyfi.

By contrast, the Central Wales line has a poor train service and declining passenger numbers. It is a non-viable rural line, which was only saved from the Beeching axe by political lobbying. The places served are much smaller than those on the Cambrian mainline and are not major traffic generators (although I have twice used the northern section to attend conferences at the Metropole Hotel in Llandrindod). Serving multiple halts slows the trains down even if they don't stop.